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Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

Blah, I guess Panzer-Pope doesn't like me.  "Time honoured principles of morality"?  WTF is that?  How is this guy equating Church doctrine to the evolution of political dialogue within a society?  Membership within the Catholic Church (voluntary) is far different then citizenship within Canada, so by default our state must be responsive to the goals and desires of the people who form the "Leviathan" today.

Liberal democratic prinicples with which we structure our lives by are not some inorganic "time honoured" meta-laws, they are evolutionary and completely beholden to the fact that most of us feel they are valid.

Anyways, this is a Catholic Church matter and Catholics can decide - I don't really care what they wish to do with their lives or afterlives....

 
>Liberal democratic prinicples with which we structure our lives by are not some inorganic "time honoured" meta-laws, they are evolutionary and completely beholden to the fact that most of us feel they are valid.

I don't consider them to be evolutionary.  The values have always been there; it has just taken us some time to recognize them and even longer to fully respect them.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Liberal democratic prinicples with which we structure our lives by are not some inorganic "time honoured" meta-laws, they are evolutionary and completely beholden to the fact that most of us feel they are valid.

I don't consider them to be evolutionary.  The values have always been there; it has just taken us some time to recognize them and even longer to fully respect them.

This could be an interesting argument ... the ideas of Rousseau, Locke and Thomas Paine were revolutionary (as was the US Declaration of Independence - obviously), but certainly the ideas of 'democracy' preceeded the Enlightenment by a few thousand years.  Nonetheless, I would be inclined to argue that the foundation of "Liberal democratic principles" as we know it is Humanism, which only really began in a meaningful way with the idea of the individual as a rational, skeptical being (rather than a simple meat-puppet of the Church, slave-owner, or whatever) ... e.g. Sir Francis Bacon (separatation of philosophy (reason) from religion (revelation - irrational)).
 
The idea of the rational human has been around a long time.  It just has taken us most of history to overcome the inertia of the temporal establishments that "human" isn't a subset of "all people" demarcated by skin colour, gender, economic status, divine rights, etc.
 
Brad Sallows said:
I don't consider them to be evolutionary.   The values have always been there; it has just taken us some time to recognize them and even longer to fully respect them.

I think this is something I addressed on the "Natural Rights" comment you made in another thread.  How can rights and values "be there" (where "there" is, I am unsure of) when a society doesn't believe/comprehend/conceptualize/care for them?  Political concepts of how man relates to his fellow man are artificial; the only thing that validates them is the society of people who chooses to do so - principles such as the rule of law or political egalitarianism are as much of construct of human relations as slavery and lex talionis.
 
Do not think of inherent rights as political; they are moral.  That which is, is not a limitation on what should be.  It is the distinction between what is right and what is tolerated.  Societies and governments and people with less or no respect for natural human rights do not demonstrate that rights are abitrary.  That merely demonstrates that they (societies, government, people) are evil to varying degrees.  It is that contrast which the relativist seeks to obscure for political reasons.  The notion that we can objectively measure and compare societies' values and state that, yes, A is better on balance than B, is thought vile by some.  Practically, there are always going to be some compromises (liberty vs security).  People who are more willing to erode and infringe natural rights need to get over the conceit that they are more compassionate and enlightened: the opposite is true.
 
Relativism is self-refuting: if the relativists say 'all viewpoints are relative & therefore none is more correct than the others,' then one can see that spells disaster to their own view point, which is no more correct than any other viewpoint.
 
Sailing Instructor said:
Relativism is self-refuting: if the relativists say 'all viewpoints are relative & therefore none is more correct than the others,' then one can see that spells disaster to their own view point, which is no more correct than any other viewpoint.

That's why I always argue that Might=Right.  All moral viewpoints are relative to one another in terms of validity - if societies espouse them, then they are valid.  It is conviction and the will to back them up that determines if one's point of view contains any strength and resiliency.

Case in point - the Rights and Freedoms guaranteed by the United States Constitution are exceedingly strong and prevalent because the United States has been willing to expound and defend them with force throughout its history.  The Rights of every American citizen is guaranteed not by nature, but because they US Government will act on behalf of the citizenry to uphold the Constitution.  They are validated by Americans because they have been doing a fairly respectable job of providing both individuals and society as a whole in America with prosperity.  Canada's own system (which is quite similar in grounding) is also fairly resilient because we've prospered under the Aegis of world powers; first Pax Britannica and then Pax Americana.

Systems which aren't as forceful with their competitors either die a glorious death (as Nazi Germany did) or waste away in a sort of game of Social Darwinism (as Bolshevism/Communism did/is).

Brad Sallows said:
Do not think of inherent rights as political; they are moral.

I fundamentally disagree with this assertion.  Rights seem to be political to me.  They are the product of political discourse and consent between political figures and the interests (citizenry, landowners, tribes, whatever) they represent.  Rights govern how we are to act toward eachother - if we were all lived in a social vacuum (never coming into contact with others) or in a State of Nature (where instinctive survival overides rational cooperation), there would be no need for rights as their would be no relationships to govern.

What else guarantees your right to freely speak and assemble?  It surely isn't divine law, cosmic justice, or the force of nature.

Societies and governments and people with less or no respect for natural human rights do not demonstrate that rights are arbitrary.  That merely demonstrates that they (societies, government, people) are evil to varying degrees.

Bullocks, I refuse to accept that other societies are "missing the boat" on ethical conduct because they haven't bought into the traditions of Modern Western political thought.  There is more then one way to skin a cat, and not all of these ways have to begin with "We the People...."

It is that contrast which the relativist seeks to obscure for political reasons.   The notion that we can objectively measure and compare societies' values and state that, yes, A is better on balance than B, is thought vile by some.

I don't consider it vile at all.  As I alluded to above, in a sort of "Social Darwinism", some social orders offer more to their citizens then others.  Quite simply, they are stronger and more desirable traits.  It does not mean they are "good" in a ethical sense - only "stronger" in the sense that they appeal to a Hobessian "1st Law" in effect in that most humans desire peace and security first and foremost.  If systems that include Wahabism, Communism, or Slavery can't do this, they fall by the wayside as evolutionary failures.

There may be a universal set of basic desires in humans (even this is debatable, as cosmological outlooks tend to skew these), but these desires are in no way secured or guaranteed in Nature.
 
The danger of relativism is that you can "cherry pick" things which support whatever it is you are trying to do, and selectivly ignore the rest. (This is a natural tendency among people in general, by the way). Having a doctrinal foundation, constitutional or scriptual or whatever, at least forces you to carfully examine your plan against a fixed framework. Physical sciences are the best example, the laws of the Universe are fixed by the metrics of Space/Time and are not subject to appeal or majorety opinion. If I say something is so in the physical world, anyone can replicate the experiment/observation and should come up with the same answer. 

Politics seems to be an extreme example of the opposite tendency, since for every example of a trend, there seems to be an exception or counter example. The other danger is that unlike the laws of physics, there are ways to attempt end runs around institutional fixtures:

Alien Justice
Ruth Bader Ginsburg vs. the Declaration of Independence.

By Edward Whelan

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg recently gave a speech defending the Supreme Court's increasing use of foreign law in support of its rulings on the meaning of the Constitution. The title of her speech â ” "'A decent Respect to the Opinions of [Human]kind': the Value of a Comparative Perspective in Constitutional Adjudication" â ” nicely encapsulates the core flaws in her position.

First is her thinly disguised contempt for the Framers. Obtusely appealing to the Declaration of Independence to justify the Supreme Court's dependence on foreign law, Ginsburg cannot resist the urge to purge the gender bias she perceives in the Framers' observation that "a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind" requires a declaration of the "causes which impel them to the Separation." Nor, apparently, did she notice that one of those stated causes was that King George III "has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution."

The rhetorical centerpiece of Ginsburg's speech is a crude attack against originalists â ” those who adhere to the original understanding of the Framers' Constitution and of the various amendments to it. Here's the structure of her illogic: (1) Chief Justice Taney in Dred Scott stated the originalist principle that no "change in public opinion or feeling . . . in the civilized nations of Europe or in this country should induce the [Supreme Court] to give to the words of the Constitution a more liberal construction . . . than they were intended to bear when the instrument was framed and adopted." (2) This statement of originalist orthodoxy, Ginsburg asserts, is "extreme." (3) Notwithstanding the fact that the Civil War and the post-Civil War Amendments reversed Dred Scott, Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justices Scalia and Thomas somehow continue to share Taney's "extreme" position that constitutional rulings should not be based on foreign developments. With this glaring non sequitur, Ginsburg absurdly insinuates that the position espoused by her three colleagues has some special kinship with Taney and Dred Scott.

Taney's opinion in Dred Scott is deservedly infamous, but not because of its recitation of originalist orthodoxy. Besides its overt racism, the main legal defect in Taney's opinion is that, while pretending to be faithful to originalist principles, it in fact marked the Court's first use of the modern judicial activist's favorite tool, "substantive due process," to invalidate a statute â ” the Missouri Compromise of 1820, which prohibited slavery in the northern portion of the Louisiana Territories. Notably, the dissenters in Dred Scott invoked and properly applied the very originalist principles that Ginsburg finds abhorrent: "I prefer the lights of Madison, Hamilton, and Jay, as a means of construing the Constitution in all its bearings," wrote Justice McLean. "f a prohibition of slavery in a Territory in 1820 violated this principle of [due process], the ordinance of 1787 also violated it," explained Justice Curtis in exposing Taney's deviation from originalism.

In attacking originalism as "frozen in time," Ginsburg slights the genius of the Framers in setting up a system in which the people, through their elected representatives and within the broad bounds established by the Constitution, adapt the laws to changing times. She claims that judges "honor the Framers' intent 'to create [sic] a more perfect Union'" when they rewrite the Constitution to comport with their own understandings of the needs of the day. But it is "We the People of the United States," not judges, to whom the Constitution looks to "form a more perfect Union."

The second basic flaw in Ginsburg's speech is signaled by her elusive subtitle. What exactly does a "comparative perspective" in constitutional adjudication mean, and what is its value? Addressing a group of international lawyers, Ginsburg resorts to kindergarten talk â ” "we can learn from others," "we can join hands with others," we should "share our experience" â ” but never even attempts to explain how a foreign court's decision on how a foreign law measures up to a foreign charter can or should have analytical value in construing our Constitution. She emphasizes that she does not regard foreign decisions as "controlling authorities." Could those foreign decisions be the tipping factor in a particular case? Ginsburg doesn't expressly say so, but she gives no reason why that couldn't happen. Nor does she offer any principle to determine what weight they should have. In short, she has no response to Scalia's criticism: "To invoke alien law when it agrees with one's own thinking, and ignore it otherwise, is not reasoned decisionmaking, but sophistry."

When Ginsburg's position is clear, her understanding is muddled. Ginsburg points out that the Framers understood that the United States "would be bound by 'the Law of Nations,' today called international law." But the Constitution's conferral of power on Congress "[t]o define and punish . . . Offenses against the Law of Nations" makes clear that it is up to Congress, not judges, to determine which obligations under international law should apply domestically.

Similarly, Ginsburg points out with pride that her separate opinions in the Michigan racial-preference cases cite two United Nations Conventions â ” one that the United States has ratified, and one that "sadly" it "has not yet ratified" â ” as evidence that the international understanding of racial preferences supports her application of the Equal Protection Clause. But the very fact that she sees no effective difference between a ratified treaty â ” which (whether or not it has any domestic effect) is part of "the supreme Law of the Land" under the Constitution â ” and an unratified convention demonstrates the incoherence of her views.

Ginsburg ends her speech by quoting Abigail Adams's comment that the "habits of a vigorous mind are formed in contending with difficulties." Alas for Ginsburg â ” and for all Americans subjected to her dominion â ” the habits of a flabby mind are reinforced in merely pretending to have contended with difficulties.

â ” Edward Whelan is president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center and directs EPPC's program on the Constitution, the Courts, and the Culture.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/whelan200504260804.asp
 
Brad Sallows said:
The idea of the rational human has been around a long time.  It just has taken us most of history to overcome the inertia of the temporal establishments that "human" isn't a subset of "all people" demarcated by skin colour, gender, economic status, divine rights, etc.
Brad Sallows said:
Do not think of inherent rights as political; they are moral.  That which is, is not a limitation on what should be.  It is the distinction between what is right and what is tolerated.

I see the notion of rights fundamentally changing with the Enlightenment thinkers ... prior to that time all notions of Rights were something that was 'bestowed' rather than inherently existing: the Magna Charta was a huge leap forward from the (then) existing system, but the difference between it and the (US) Declaration of Independence was fundamental.  Rights came to be viewed in the meta-context of the individual (from the ground up), rather than of the church or state (top-down): people became "free" to test their beliefs with the scientific method, rather than simply living under the received wisdom of their spiritual/intellectual 'superiors' [insert snarky comment about modern socialism here].
 
I do not agree that strength and resiliency are equivalent to rightness.  If might=right, then all actions and outcomes are permitted and any means or end in service to might is morally good.  Are you sure this is what you intend?

If I understand what you mean by a moral viewpoint, it (moral viewpoint) does not define what is good.  A moral viewpoint defines which evils are tolerated and to what degree.  I can not make murder or theft or deceit any less evil.  I can only decide whether or not to be evil (whether by omission or condonement or commission) to a lesser or greater degree.  If I am strong in defence and promotion of evil, I am simply evil - I don't make evil thereby right.

Perhaps it is confusing, or I am confused, to describe natural rights as moral rather than political.  I suppose my point is that those rights can exist outside any political context and the closer we cleave to upholding the natural human rights, the greater the moral good.  That the rights exist and respect of them is good does not mean that evil can not triumph in the absence of the will and means to safeguard the rights.  Again, what is and what should be do not always align.

If you believe that what is good is analogous to an invariant then it must follow that judgement of how close we asymptotically approach the good is possible; if you also believe that what is good is morally desirable then it must also follow that those who value the good and uphold the good and promote the good are morally superior than those who do not, and cultures which facilitate the promotion of the good are morally superior to those which are less effective at doing so.  It is not arrogance, it is merely an obvious conclusion.  Where the various cultures and belief systems stand I will leave as an exercise for the reader.
 
To me, it seems like the whole relativist/absolutist debate isn't about who is morally right or wrong but about jurisdiction. The relativists are content to impose their morality where it's commonly accepted and the absolutists want to push it where it isn't. Both impose, it's a question of degree. Neither is right or wrong in their morality, they just have differing views on whether subscription thereto should be a choice or be compulsory by virtue of a person's physical existence.

Infanteer, from reading your posts I get the impression you're a big Hobbes fan, yes?
 
Glorified Ape said:
Infanteer, from reading your posts I get the impression you're a big Hobbes fan, yes?

Yeah, I had to read it in four different classes (I have 3 versions of the book on my bookshelf - and it isn't even a translated text!) and it seemed to make much more sense then alot of the flowery political theorists.

I did the basic premise that Man sucks, he tries to get by, and does better by working togeather to promote the goal of getting by.   To me, morality and "natural rights" don't fit anywhere except by being inserted the concept of "working togeather".

There seems to be two arguments here, one on Moral Relativism and one of Natural Rights.   I think the two are linked, for if there is a set of Rights that are distinct from the human species as a part of Nature, then these rights are absolute and the morality of working with them is as well.

It is something I remain unconvinced of - "Rights" (along with other questions of morality) are a Tabula Rasa in which the experiences of civilization are imprinted upon and considered.   They can be changed, overwritten, or preserved depending on how societies choose to take them.

Anyways, here is a fun quote from my other favorite political philosopher:

"Ah, yes, the 'unalienable rights.'   Each year someone quotes that magnificent poetry.   Life?   What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific?   The ocean will not hearken to his cries.   What 'right' to life has a man who must die if he is to save his children?   If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'?   If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'?   And is it 'right'?   As to liberty, the heroeswho signed the great document pledged themselves to buy[/u] liberty with their lives.   Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes.   Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost.

The third 'right'?   - the 'pursuit of happiness'?   It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore.   Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'pursue happiness' as long as my brain lives - but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it."

Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers, pg 119.


Cheers,
Infanteer
 
That's putting quite a bit of faith in a stuffed tiger (Hobbes), isn't it? ;)

Kat
 
John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes - who would have thought?  :D
 
The idea of normative rights is not that they are inherently unassailable (i.e., are somehow magically protected by some greater power) but rather that they ought to be protected, which is why they get codified into legal documents.  In the case of the drowning man, the point is that his drowning is a violation of his right to life: someone should save him, but that doesn't guarantee that it will happen.  The right exists whether the society protects and respects it or not: Cuban's right to free speech is being violated, even though they have no (codified) right to free speech.
 
>The relativists are content to impose their morality where it's commonly accepted and the absolutists want to push it where it isn't.

Some relativists insist everyone else should be a relativist, and some absolutists believe in free will (ie. the good is absolute, but you may choose it or not).

>Neither is right or wrong in their morality

By definition, to be moral is to be right (good) so absolutism is axiomatic.  Hence moral relativism is an absurdity.  A relativist can only be amoral.

"Inalienable" is not synonymous with "impervious".  "Inalienable" means the rights can't be given up or confiscated.  It does not mean the rights can't be infringed.

There is certainly a theoretically unbounded set of non-natural (social, political, economic, etc) rights which can be created, changed, destroyed, etc.
 
I_am_John_Galt said:
The idea of normative rights is not that they are inherently unassailable (i.e., are somehow magically protected by some greater power) but rather that they ought to be protected,[/i]

And this is where my view on relativism comes into play - the assertion that liberal democratic rights are fundamental and "just" is one that is grounded in hundreds of years of Western Political thought and application; it is no different then, say traditional Islamic thought which bases "just" on Sharia and establishes this through hundreds of years of Islamic scholarship.  The same could be said for other social systems which differ from ours.

The only thing that makes them worth protecting is that we as individuals and as a society see them as valid and worth defending with our lives (hence the might=right aspect I was digging at).  I can't find "good" and "evil" anywhere in this equation - just Nature and the game of survival.
 
I'd agree with you insofar as positive rights are concerned: they are a construct of what is thought to be good or right at any particular time.  Normative rights (or Natural Law) are recognized only as a result of rationally de-constructing the idea of existence (I can never get the line from that Monty Python song out of my head "Rene Descartes was a drunken fart").  Once identified, they exist regardless of the political or moral context ... this is why we sometimes say that Islamic (& other) Fundamentalists still live in the Dark Ages: they haven't identified (let alone tried to protect) these rights.
 
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