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there it is.Kat Stevens said:
That's why I differentiate between Spirituality (a vital component in human development) and Religion (the only area where I agree completely with Marx - Karl, as well as Groucho).
Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
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That's why I differentiate between Spirituality (a vital component in human development) and Religion (the only area where I agree completely with Marx - Karl, as well as Groucho).
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I also lost my "faith" in the major religions a few years ago.
Shamanism has been defined as the first religion. It existed prior to the earliest civilizations, before our ancestors took the first steps towards the present. Many people know of Shamans being medicine men. They were the first humans with knowledge. Knowledge is power; men and women who possessed it in those easrly days were Shamans.
Wicca can be described as a shamanic religion. Today's Wiccan's have dropped the ordeals of pain and the use of hallucinogens in favor of chanting, meditation, concentration, visualization, music, dance, invocation and ritual drama. Wicca, as with many other religions, recognizes a deity as dual. It revers both the goddess and the god. They are equal, warm and loving, not distant or resident in "heaven" but omnipresent throughout the universe. As with many eastern religions, Wicca also embraces the doctrine of reincarnation, that much-misunderstood subject. Wicca does not seek out new members. Wicca doesn't solicit because, unlike most western religions, it doesn't claim to be the one true way to deity.
Wicca never disappeared but withdrew from the public eye. With the crucifications of Wiccans and people claiming they were using black magick, it was safer to withdraw. Many covens nowadays refuse to allow you to discuss their activities outside of the coven circle do to the publics perception of Wicca.
Shamanism has been defined as the first religion. It existed prior to the earliest civilizations, before our ancestors took the first steps towards the present. Many people know of Shamans being medicine men. They were the first humans with knowledge. Knowledge is power; men and women who possessed it in those easrly days were Shamans.
Wicca can be described as a shamanic religion. Today's Wiccan's have dropped the ordeals of pain and the use of hallucinogens in favor of chanting, meditation, concentration, visualization, music, dance, invocation and ritual drama. Wicca, as with many other religions, recognizes a deity as dual. It revers both the goddess and the god. They are equal, warm and loving, not distant or resident in "heaven" but omnipresent throughout the universe. As with many eastern religions, Wicca also embraces the doctrine of reincarnation, that much-misunderstood subject. Wicca does not seek out new members. Wicca doesn't solicit because, unlike most western religions, it doesn't claim to be the one true way to deity.
Wicca never disappeared but withdrew from the public eye. With the crucifications of Wiccans and people claiming they were using black magick, it was safer to withdraw. Many covens nowadays refuse to allow you to discuss their activities outside of the coven circle do to the publics perception of Wicca.
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incorrect. Despite what you may have been told by someone trying to sell you something, what is now termed "Wicca" did, in fact disappear. The 'modern, revisionist Wicca' has as much in common with the ancient Faith we will term Druidism (for lack of a better term), as the Society for Creative Anachronism has with true Medieval Courts. Trace elements of ancient Druidic practices and philosophies can still be found in some measure in Roman Catholocism. Not all of Pelagius's teachings were scorched away, despite Germanus's best intentions. Saint Brigit, for instance is the ancient Celtic Goddess Brigidde, and many of the teachings Pelagius taught are currently believed to be a direct result of his familiarity with the Druids of what is now England.Springroll said:
But, true Druidism was wiped away on the pilum and gladius of the Legions. It survived in an increasingly garbled and bastardized version in the huts and customs of the peasantry, eventually suffering a 'revival' in Victorian England (which was made up entirely on the spot), and again in recent decades.
But, hey, if it meets your Spiritual needs, have at it!
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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A question then.....If Wicca's don't solicite, nor talk outside of their coven (as you are doing now), how does the 'faith' perpetuate itself? Do you have to be born, literally, into the Wicca religion? So you would have to come from a long line of witches, in order to be a witch today.
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by selling books, totems, fetishes, icons, etc. Usually these days via the Internet. Which sounds an awful lot like solicitation to me. (In every sense of the word.)George Wallace said:
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George Wallace said:
Most people(like myself) discover it on our own, either by speaking to a friend or researching religions. I am not a member of a coven, so I am not bound by the rules of one. You do not have to come form a long line of witches to be one. I only began to realise that Wicca was "my way" a few years ago. Up until that point I was Anglican. Even was married in the Anglican church.
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paracowboy said:
Fetishes? like what?
Wiccans do not ask you for money to attend a ritual or anything of the sort. No one has ever tried to sell me something in terms of anything Wicca related. I have chosen to go into Occult shops and purchase books on the subject. A great read for anyone interested in learning a bit about Wicca is called "Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practioner" by Scott Cunningham ISBN 0-87542-118-0
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paracowboy said:
Could you elaborate on that? If my spirituality you mean the belief that human beings have a soul/there's something higher then I'd have to disagree - I've never believed either and I wouldn't say it has hindered my development.
Bert
Sr. Member
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Check out this site.
http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavolution/QuantaSeries.htm
"The Lately Tortured Earth"
For conventionalists, both Darwinian and Religious, would balk at the
idea of the moon forming 14,000 years ago. Even if a portion of
these theories hold true as scientific evidence may provide, religion
starts with catastrophy and these events remain deeply embedded
into human experience.
http://www.grazian-archive.com/quantavolution/QuantaSeries.htm
"The Lately Tortured Earth"
For conventionalists, both Darwinian and Religious, would balk at the
idea of the moon forming 14,000 years ago. Even if a portion of
these theories hold true as scientific evidence may provide, religion
starts with catastrophy and these events remain deeply embedded
into human experience.
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good for you. That's why it's called a Belief.Glorified Ape said:
Belief
Definitions:
1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
Spirituality
Definitions:
1. spiritual quality: the quality or condition of being spiritual
spiritual
Definitions:
1. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things rather than worldly things
You've stated on previous threads that you don't need anything outside yourself. Have fun with that.
We could get into a big debate, but you won't change your mind, I won't change mine, and nothing would be accomplished. The fact that this is about Faith and Belief means that you will never believe that you are missing something, and I will always believe that you are.
I have no intention of getting into a debate with you. I've been where you are now. I've progressed beyond it, and intend to continue progressing. You do the same in your own way. Lemme know how it turns out for you.
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A fetish is a small carved idol, used to represent a deity or spirit. Not a desire to cast spells hanging upside down in a rubber diaper, unless that's your personal bag.Springroll said:
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Kat Stevens said:
The "fetish": They give something to the client to use, asking for what he wants: A potion, herbs, a charm, a prayer, an amulet to wear on the neck, a ring, a crystal... and even real poisons!.
I have given my son a "fetish" to fight off bad dreams due to a tragic event he witnessed. It was a cloth bag filled with herbs to help him sleep at night. When I first saw the word fetish I was thinking along the wrong lines..LOL
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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Ah the esoteric interests,
I find that this thread is an excellent observation. For example, myself I was born in Roman Catholicism, and raised that way, albeit not in a very staunch fashion. My values are very Christian, and I find my faith keeps me strong.
However, I have been curious as well and have read, and actually participate which would make me very Un-Catholic. What keeps me strong again is my faith.
You can see a resurgence of beliefs that question Christianity. The belief in a Female deity, as in the story of Christ, Mary Magdalene, and the Holy Grail is but one example. Holy Blood, Holy Grail by authors Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln explored this in detail and was an explosive book when released in the early '80s. It's popularity resurged recently with a release of another popular work, albeit fiction, The Davinci Code by Dan Brown. I have read both, and I advise reading Holy Blodd first!
As for secrets, and soceties that keep them, short of being within that circle there is no way of knowing exactly what is practiced. Picking up a book is like looking at the menu at a resteraunt. Until you bite in to the real thing, it is still a description. Masonry, touched on by the books I have mentioned, has been written time and time again by so called "Experts" in the field who have never spent so much as a meeting within the lodge. Yet have published volumes of the secrets of the level.
Either way, a good thread and this is one I hope grows in to a long, friendly discussion.
fy
tess
I find that this thread is an excellent observation. For example, myself I was born in Roman Catholicism, and raised that way, albeit not in a very staunch fashion. My values are very Christian, and I find my faith keeps me strong.
However, I have been curious as well and have read, and actually participate which would make me very Un-Catholic. What keeps me strong again is my faith.
You can see a resurgence of beliefs that question Christianity. The belief in a Female deity, as in the story of Christ, Mary Magdalene, and the Holy Grail is but one example. Holy Blood, Holy Grail by authors Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln explored this in detail and was an explosive book when released in the early '80s. It's popularity resurged recently with a release of another popular work, albeit fiction, The Davinci Code by Dan Brown. I have read both, and I advise reading Holy Blodd first!
As for secrets, and soceties that keep them, short of being within that circle there is no way of knowing exactly what is practiced. Picking up a book is like looking at the menu at a resteraunt. Until you bite in to the real thing, it is still a description. Masonry, touched on by the books I have mentioned, has been written time and time again by so called "Experts" in the field who have never spent so much as a meeting within the lodge. Yet have published volumes of the secrets of the level.
Either way, a good thread and this is one I hope grows in to a long, friendly discussion.
fy
tess
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It is interesting to note that even some of the most basic tenets of ancient (read: neolithic) religions held as irrefutable fact by "popular" culture are in fact quite baseless. Even a brief perusal of the historiographical and archaeological record of the British Isles indicates that there is no sign of the "Universal Pan-Celtic Religion Mark IV" which is attested by fans of Wicca etc....
Much of what today is regarded as evidence for the existence of the PCR is subject to question as a result of interpretation of artifacts based on the Beholder's beliefs rather than the actual intent or use of the object....As an example the "fertility idols" said to represent the "Mother-Goddess" by the Pan-Celtophiles (to coin an awkward phrase)...can only actually be said to have the appearance of pregnant female figures......historians can only guess as to the original intent....
(Before people cry foul and say that it is the only OBVIOUS conclusion...It was also obvious to many historians in the 20s that a Neanderthal grave discovered in Europe was conclusive evidence of the existence of an early neolithic burial cult....until further research indicated that the dried flowers found strewn about the corpse resulted from air currents within the cave and not human placement.....)
Most of the problem with today's Pagan or Alternate religion crowd is that the tenets of said "New-Age" religions were written in the face of the historical evidence. I have run into "Druids", "New Mithra's types" and Wiccans whose stated beliefs do not jive at all with the historical record....Instead they follow what is popular and "New Age".
The sad old cry about the burning of the witches stemming from an anti-female movement ignores the basis in fact:
1. The Catholic church about 1000 Ad had finally agreed within itself what is tenets were...and purged the major groups of heretics....
2. In Germany at that time it was very difficult for the Church to prosecute pagans and heretics in court....because the targets were fully capable of mounting a legal defence against charges of trafficking with the devil etc.....
3. To counter this , 2 Dominican Monks named Kramer and Sprenger convinced the Pope to issue a Papal Bull ( A Papal Order) stating that the only thing WORSE than being a Witch....was NOT BELIEVING in witches....
4. Once issued, the Bull gave Inquisitors a magic bullet to be used against those whom the Church found difficult ( or wealthy....)
Sometimes History is really what WE make it, not what it was......
.
Margret Murray as an example
In has been proven false...and evidence is readily available to support the fact that "universal Celtic practice" a
Much of what today is regarded as evidence for the existence of the PCR is subject to question as a result of interpretation of artifacts based on the Beholder's beliefs rather than the actual intent or use of the object....As an example the "fertility idols" said to represent the "Mother-Goddess" by the Pan-Celtophiles (to coin an awkward phrase)...can only actually be said to have the appearance of pregnant female figures......historians can only guess as to the original intent....
(Before people cry foul and say that it is the only OBVIOUS conclusion...It was also obvious to many historians in the 20s that a Neanderthal grave discovered in Europe was conclusive evidence of the existence of an early neolithic burial cult....until further research indicated that the dried flowers found strewn about the corpse resulted from air currents within the cave and not human placement.....)
Most of the problem with today's Pagan or Alternate religion crowd is that the tenets of said "New-Age" religions were written in the face of the historical evidence. I have run into "Druids", "New Mithra's types" and Wiccans whose stated beliefs do not jive at all with the historical record....Instead they follow what is popular and "New Age".
The sad old cry about the burning of the witches stemming from an anti-female movement ignores the basis in fact:
1. The Catholic church about 1000 Ad had finally agreed within itself what is tenets were...and purged the major groups of heretics....
2. In Germany at that time it was very difficult for the Church to prosecute pagans and heretics in court....because the targets were fully capable of mounting a legal defence against charges of trafficking with the devil etc.....
3. To counter this , 2 Dominican Monks named Kramer and Sprenger convinced the Pope to issue a Papal Bull ( A Papal Order) stating that the only thing WORSE than being a Witch....was NOT BELIEVING in witches....
4. Once issued, the Bull gave Inquisitors a magic bullet to be used against those whom the Church found difficult ( or wealthy....)
Sometimes History is really what WE make it, not what it was......
.
Margret Murray as an example
In has been proven false...and evidence is readily available to support the fact that "universal Celtic practice" a
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Alot of what i just read on Margaret Murray here, says to me that this was not white magick witches that she was talking about, but instead black magick witches.
The differences being:
"White Magic", is the one used for good purposes: Heal a sick, get a job, the return of the bad husband, or the rebel child, obtain a boyfriend... or make it rain, sunshine, stop a thunderstorm...
"Black Magic", is used for bad purposes: Harm other people, make someone sick, loose his job, or even kill him... make a bad thunderstorm, a hurricane, a fire at home or in the business...
The differences being:
"White Magic", is the one used for good purposes: Heal a sick, get a job, the return of the bad husband, or the rebel child, obtain a boyfriend... or make it rain, sunshine, stop a thunderstorm...
"Black Magic", is used for bad purposes: Harm other people, make someone sick, loose his job, or even kill him... make a bad thunderstorm, a hurricane, a fire at home or in the business...
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Don't forget being amazingly hot, and "vanquishing" all manner of demonic nasties, and outrageous bastardizations of myth.
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Majic is spelt "magic"... Magick is an alternate spelling of magic, an artifical word created by Aleister Crowley to differentiate sorcery from illusion or stage magic... According to my dictionary (OED)
AND>>>
Here is how we determine witchcraft:
BEDEVERE: Quiet, quiet. Quiet! There are ways of telling whether
she is a witch.
CROWD: Are there? What are they? Do they hurt?
BEDEVERE: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2: Burn!
CROWD: Burn, burn them up!
BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1: More witches!
VILLAGER #2: Wood!
BEDEVERE: So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?
BEDEVERE: Good!
CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah...
BEDEVERE: So, how do we tell whether she, is made, of wood?
VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE: Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.
BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No, no.
VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond!
BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Great gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEVERE: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER #1: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of
wood.
BEDEVERE: And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1: A witch!
AND>>>
Here is how we determine witchcraft:
BEDEVERE: Quiet, quiet. Quiet! There are ways of telling whether
she is a witch.
CROWD: Are there? What are they? Do they hurt?
BEDEVERE: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2: Burn!
CROWD: Burn, burn them up!
BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1: More witches!
VILLAGER #2: Wood!
BEDEVERE: So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?
BEDEVERE: Good!
CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah...
BEDEVERE: So, how do we tell whether she, is made, of wood?
VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE: Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.
BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No, no.
VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond!
BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Great gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEVERE: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER #1: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of
wood.
BEDEVERE: And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1: A witch!
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I like that Pronto..lol
Edited to add:
The definition from Dictionary.com
mag ·ick
n.
An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.
For those that do not know who Aleister Crowley is, he is actually a well known Satanist.
Edited to add:
The definition from Dictionary.com
mag ·ick
n.
An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.
For those that do not know who Aleister Crowley is, he is actually a well known Satanist.
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Margaret Murray = pure revisionism, either out of:
a) a true wish to help people achieve some sense of spiritual well-being,
or
b) recognition of a fad which she can use to line her pockets.
Either have multiple precedents throughout religious history. But, she is certainly not anything remotely resembling an historian.
a) a true wish to help people achieve some sense of spiritual well-being,
or
b) recognition of a fad which she can use to line her pockets.
Either have multiple precedents throughout religious history. But, she is certainly not anything remotely resembling an historian.
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Paracowboy....
Bang on on Murray......
Sorry, am at work and was interrupted by the clientele.......
Was going to finish by hitting on Murray's coup in Getting HER definition of Witchcraft into the Enc. Brittanica when half of all heck broke loose here....
You summed it up very well.....and Hit the nail on the head with pocket lining...the true new Age Religion
Bang on on Murray......
Sorry, am at work and was interrupted by the clientele.......
Was going to finish by hitting on Murray's coup in Getting HER definition of Witchcraft into the Enc. Brittanica when half of all heck broke loose here....
You summed it up very well.....and Hit the nail on the head with pocket lining...the true new Age Religion
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