Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[McG]

That many argued we should keep horses because they were a "tradition."  If you are going to call something "tradition" and end your argument there, then you may as well accept your argument is no stronger than that used by those who wrongly wanted to continue to fight from horses.

Can you answer my previous question:

What reason beyond "tradition" exists for making organizationally chosen religions a part of every soldier's lives?

 

[George Wallace]

That many argued we should keep horses because they were a "tradition." If you are going to call something "tradition" and end your argument there, then you may as well accept your argument is no stronger than that used by those who wrongly wanted to continue to fight from horses.

So following your logic, the LAV is a "tradition"?    ???

GW

To answer your question:  Discipline, Tolerance, Knowledge.  This could be a means to pass on Knowledge to our young soldiers of what to face in the world.  How to be tolerant and respect the rights and differences of others, not to reject them and walk away because they don't see any value in anything other than their own personal needs.  The "Me" Generation cares only for themselves and cares little if at all for anyone elses rights or opinions. 

You talk of being selective of what traditions we keep and which ones we get rid of.  Fine, I agree; but what gives you the right to have the final say?  Again, just because you don't see any reason for something, through lack of knowledge or whatever, doesn't mean that it isn't there for a damn good reason. 

Now back to horses.......

 

[aesop081]

Never mind the horses...i can't beleive that you and McG are still going at it !!!

The CEO of IVI must be rolling in it by now ............. ;D

 

[George Wallace]

I actually think we are on common ground, but are arguing the useless stuff now.......How many pages can we stretch this to? 

Gw

 

[the 48th regulator]

Here is something to help mark off the days for "Santa Day"  And "Search for the eggs in the grass left behind by the bunny rabbit day"

https://lightning.he.net/~atheists/catalogue/shop/prod5904.php

Godless heathens.....

tess

 

[McG]

So following your logic, the LAV is a "tradition"?  ???

I wouldn't say so.  It was the Cavalry itself that claimed their tradition was on horses.

You talk of being selective of what traditions we keep and which ones we get rid of. Fine, I agree; but what gives you the right to have the final say?

I don't claim to have the final say.  Just trying to get past the label "tradition" and on to something of substance like:

To answer your question: Discipline, Tolerance, Knowledge. This could be a means to pass on Knowledge to our young soldiers of what to face in the world. How to be tolerant and respect the rights and differences of others, not to reject them and walk away because they don't see any value in anything other than their own personal needs. The "Me" Generation cares only for themselves and cares little if at all for anyone elses rights or opinions.

I think Discipline is covered through drill, saluting, & routine; tolerance through SHARP, Diversity trg, and ethics trg; and knowledge through mission specific cultural training.

However, I do think religion has a place in the military.  It is not at mess dinners, church parades, or other parades.  It is through interaction with elements external to the military (a "when in Rome" sort of thing).  When a guest in a community, it is fair to expect members to show respect for beliefs of that community.  If your unit is doing a freedom of the city parade and the municipality wants to include prayer, then we should respect that wish of our hosts.  The same thing would apply to contingents overseas.

Aside form those acts of community, I do not think there should be any compulsory religious observance in the military.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

    Before I start, let me just say that I am a practicing Asatru (Norse Pagan), and was during my military service.  I think that the refusal to remove the cap was an act of disrespect.  Military cermonials serve a military purpose.  Drill, banners, cap badges, dress uniforms, pipers, and padre's, all of them are seen by the civilian as being of no utility.  That is BS.  Esprit de corps, or knowing that you are part of something greater than yourself, an Army, a band of brothers united in defence of our homeland.  Our ceremonials bind us together, make of us a single people, and unify us with those who have gone before, especially those who fell in service.  As an Asatru I felt honoured to participate in regimental ceremonials (and yes I thought drill was a pain in the ass after basic, we all do), especially the Remembrance Ceremony.  I see no problem as an Asatru with Padres (of whatever faith) leading the prayers to remember the fallen, honouring our dead is something that all service men and women can find common cause in.  Does it matter to me if a Rabbi, a Catholic Priest or Sunni Immam is leading the prayer?  No, I am paying homage to those who have gone before, not the man at the podium, or the entity he is invoking.  Do I remove my hat for prayer, hell, I remove my hat in the mess.  It is about respect, it is about tradition, it is about discipline.  You follow your orders, show respect for the traditions of your service.  I will not pray to any gods but my own, but I will show respect for the beleifs of others.  If I can show respect for a Prime Minister who lead the charge to gut the Canadian Armed Forces during his tenure as Minister of Finnance, then I don't see how it's too much to ask somone to doff their cap on parade during a prayer.  We are here to defend democracy, not to practice it.

 

[Infanteer]

Before I start, let me just say that I am a practicing Asatru (Norse Pagan)

Does this mean you believe in Valhalla?

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

    Valhalla, the hall of heroes.  Yes I beleive that the souls of the honoured dead, the warriors who have given their all without flinching will be together in Odin's hall.  Do I think it resembles a fur clad Jr Ranks mess as described in the saga's? I doubt it.  One day I will find out for certain, but beyond doubt I expect to greet my Grandfather, great uncles, many of the friends I made in the service, and thier foes along side them.  If you examine half the centotaphs closely, you see a female angel carrying a dead soldier unto heaven.  That "angel" is a Valkyrie, and the heaven she carries that soldier to is Valhalla.  Courage, tenacity, loyalty, fidelity, honour, the virtues Odin, not so out of place in the CF.  

 

[Infanteer]

Interesting.

I wasn't trying to poke fun, I was honestly asking (which I figured you understood with your response).

Sounds good to me - since most religious beliefs are basically human spirituality combined with individual faith, your interpretation of an afterlife seems as solid as any others.

Cheers,

Infanteer

 

[Sailing Instructor]

This incident is almost a parody of Immanuel Kant's essay An answer to the question 'what is enlightenment?'.  In the essay, he mentions persons are often told don't argue!

Kant's examples?  "Don't argue! The officer says: Don't argue, get on parade!...The clergyman: Don't argue, believe!"  And Kant's solution to the following orders & arguing debate is rather quite simple (& agreeable to me): "Argue as much as you like, and about whatever you like, but obey!"

As I see that maxim applying to this case, the lieutenant should have had explicit permission to not remove headdress when the order was said.  There is a damned obvious ready-made solution to this problem, which can be done with adept skill in the art of calling drill commands: the order ought to have gone as follows: [name Lt Scott's position here] STAND FAST, REMAINDER REMOVE--HEADDRESS

What do you know, at least the drill bible gives the commander a clear path to religious tolerance.  Sensible, considering drill is the formal summation of how soldiers conduct themselves.

PS. As I understand it, agnosticism is not a belief, but more akin to a state of uncertainty with regard to the existance of God.  Atheism, on the other hand, is a belief that there is no God.  If Lt Scott is an atheist, the order offended his beliefs, whereas if he is an agnostic, he had no beliefs which could have been offended.  The court & he seem to have differing opinions on this, which is rather detrimental to having made a decision.

PPS.  Did the lieutenant not salute as he boarded ships?  That salute originating, of course, from paying respect to the crucifix that was present on the AX (quarterdeck).

 

[truecanadian]

are there any muslims in the canadian army and are there any muslim
chaplins there and also do you provide halal meals in the army

 

[Edward Campbell]

Serving soldiers will know more about how religious rules are accommodated today; I can tell you that, many years (decades) back, rabbis issued a decree which allowed (still allows?) Jewish soldiers to ignore dietary laws when the exigencies of the service demanded.

Also, this may help, a bit:

Page 4 - 5, Maple Leaf, 14 January 2004, Vol. 7 No. 01

page 4 - 5, La feuille d'érable, Le 14 janvier 2004, Vol. 7 No. 01

When the crescent meets the cross
By Maj Tony Keene

BORDEN, Ont. â ” The first non-Christian to serve as a chaplain in the CF since the Second World War is about to take his place in the ranks. And Captain Suleyman Demiray says, when it comes to doing his job in uniform, the matter of individual faith is not the main issue.

â Å“The number of Muslims in Canada, or in the Forces, is largely irrelevant, because my job is to minister to all,â ? he says. â Å“So I'm not expecting a mosque,and Friday prayers.â ?

Capt Demiray recently graduated from the CF Chaplain School and Centre at CFB Borden. He came to Canada from Turkey 10 years ago, and stepped forward when the Forces issued a call for non-traditional faiths to join the chaplaincy.

â Å“Am I a pioneer? Well, I am the first and I'm very aware of the responsibility I face. I prepared myself for it,â ? he says. â Å“There is no role model for me on this journey. But I am part of a group I trust, and myfellow chaplains encourage me.â ?

Although Muslims usually remove their footwear in order to pray, Capt Demiray admits the length of time needed to remove and replace high laced combat boots has required some modification.â Å“I only had five minutes to pray between classes, so I kept my boots on,â ? he said.â Å“I brought my own prayer rug with me, though.â ?

His clear desire to minister to all was echoed by two of his classmates, themselves also pioneers. Capt Greg Costen, from Alberta, is a minister inthe Evangelical Free Church of Canada, another first for the military chaplaincy. And Capt Patrick Lublink is an officer in the Salvation Army. There has not been a Salvation Army officer in the Regular Force Chaplain branch since the Second World War, although at least one other has served in the Reserve Force.

â Å“My church is non-liturgical, and we have a different form of governance than many other churches,â ? says Capt Costen. â Å“But again, that is not relevant because I bring no agenda here except to help all those who ask for it. I also think the Forces deserve kudos for this, for taking thisstep forward.â ?

In the past, it had to be shown that there were at least 500 members of a particular faith in the CF before a chaplain of that faith could be engaged. Now, the CF has opened the doors wider in order to have the chaplaincy better reflect the scope of society today.

â Å“I felt the call of the ministry for years, and I wanted to serve God,â ? says Capt Lublink, who served in the CF for 22 years before leaving to become a Salvationist minister. â Å“When I learned the regulations had been changed, it was a dream come true. I feel very fulfilled.â ?

The graduation of these three new chaplains heralds changes for the chaplain branch itself. Formerly made up entirely of mainstream Christian ministers, it features a Maltese cross on its hat badge. However, that will soon change. The Muslim badge will have a Crescent, and there are plans for one featuring a Star of David, although the basic design of the badge will not change. This is similar to what was done during the Second World War, for rabbis and chaplains of other faiths. As well, the branch march was recently changed from â Å“Onward Christian Soldiersâ ? to â Å“Ode to Joyâ ?, the main theme of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, which stresses the coming brotherhoodof mankind.

â Å“The chaplaincy is working on these issues right now,â ? says Capt Costen.â Å“At the school the motto is Omnibus Ministrare, and we truly believe in ministering to all.â ?

â Å“Ministering to everyone was the vision of the founder of the Salvation Army,â ? says Capt Lublink. â Å“So I know why we are here. The doors must always be open.â ? As the first Muslim chaplain prepares to join the ranks of those serving on the front line of faith in the CF, Islam is becoming the fast-growing religion in Canada. Muslims today represent two percent of the population, or close to 600 000 people, almost double the figure of 10 years ago.

 

[a_majoor]

I have trained soldiers from many different religions, including Islamic, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and even one person who identified herself as a Wiccan.

As far as possible, the CF will accommodate the religious and dietary needs of its members, but it is also a two way street, service members need to carry out their tasks, so hair and beards must be short enough to wear protective gear like helmets and gas masks, members must be physically fit and available 24/7 on operations and so on.

There are very few Rabbis in the CF, only one Iman and no Wiccan priests, so the CF Chaplains will attempt to minister to your religious and spiritual needs, and can always request "outside" assistence for specific purposes.

I hope this helps, and good luck if you are considering becoming a service member.

 

[truecanadian]

Dear a_majoor,
  Sir thankyou for your response,i would just like to ask you that when you were in the military wer ethere any muslims with you,i hope that there would be as canada has a large number of muslims.NO PRoblem with the beard and the hair.i personally dont the like the beard.

 

[John Nayduk]

I can't speak for others but religion hasn't really been a factor.  If someone identifies themselves as needing a certain diet or whatever, we try to accommodate as much as possible.

 

[Haggis]

On Roto 13 in Bosnia I had two Muslim soldiers in my camp.  As my tour was during Ramadan, the chain of command sought them out as advisors on how to not unduly offend the locals during the holy month.

Not only was their advice invaluable, but their participation in ops during Ramadan alongside Bosniac police helped us to avoid many faux pas as well.

 

[winchable]

truecanadian;

Until recently I was in the Navy(reserve) and I am a Muslim.
I only met a few other Muslims during my short time in the army and the navy and we were always very close.
Staff were always accomodating, we were provided halal meals but you must request them of course!
And they were understanding of prayer times (they also were very helpful when it came to making it up for Fajr and Shorook ;D )

The Chaplains even though they're Christian know about all religions and you could talk to them about any faith related questions you have (don't expect them to help you in reciting your Qur'an but they will 'get' you)

Ramadan; Allah is understanding and compassionate when it comes to these things (he does not want to make it impossible) so if you must break the fast because you are in extreme heat running around and sweating and nearly dead he will forgive you of course and understand (fasting is important but so is being alive)
Fast when you can and make up for your broken days at the end of the month and by feeding the poor etc.
Don't forget you are also exempt when you're travelling!

The beard isn't a "Must have" the prophet (pbuh) himself only stated it was "desirable" that a man should have a long beard (don't quote me on that however) but it seems you don't like it anyway! Personally I grow one whenever I can, now that I'm no longer serving I keep mine!

The only part that really identifies you as a Muslim when you're training are prayer times, which only take a few minutes and can be done in private so even then they don't have to be a big factor.
If you have a few other Muslims serving with you it makes it easier as you can pray together and do the Call to prayer if someone can sing.
You'll find that everyone mushes together at the end anyway!

But be proud nonetheless brother and endeavour to stay the course of a good Muslim but remember that, as I said, Allah is forgiving and very understanding so don't panic when you can't meet the exact needs of prayer times and fasting.
The CF as a whole is very, very good about religion so you should have absolutely NO problems in that regard and you shouldn't let it stop you from applying and serving!

Good Luck and Ma'salaama

 

[jbeach95]

There are several Muslims in my unit, probably about a dozen or so.

 

[Trinity]

There are very few Rabbis in the CF, only one Iman and no Wiccan priests, so the CF Chaplains will attempt to minister to your religious and spiritual needs, and can always request "outside" assistence for specific purposes.

REALLY?  We have Rabbis?  (not trying to show you up... just for info)

From the newest version of the  chaplains manual

Chapter 11 -  28. The Chaplain Branch has undergone and continues to undergo significant transformation. One of the most significant developments was the enrollment of the CF's first Muslim chaplain in 2003, and endorsement in 2004 of the first Jewish Chaplain applicants since the end of WWII.

I didn't know of any Rabbis.  But I am aware of one coming in to the army. 

I have dealt with muslims and issues on many occasions.  The military will provide spiritual care within the needs of your
denomination.  If you needed an Iman (hope I spelled that right) for guidance one should be provided upon request.
But the chaplains are knowledgeable and do have many resources to help.

(If you do know a Rabbi in the Army, then please let me know. I would be most happy)