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Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

Units can order "Mom's Own Meals", a US commercial meal pack that is Halal/Kosher, in leiu of IMPs.  They are a nice change as well.

Recce Sqn LdSH(RC) has just returned from 6 mos in Kabul.  One of their Troop Leaders is a Muslim, as is another Strat Officer on the tour.

By all means, join up.  It's your country, and it's your Army too.

Tom
 
There is a Captain in Petawawa that is in the processes of organizing a Muslim association within both the base and the local community so that everyone can get see who's who in and around the area.

WRT hallal (sp?) meals, I'm not sure about eating in the locals messes (obviously a base located near a large metropolitan centre would have a better ability for this than a more remote location). There are hard rations available when on exercise and on deployments.  I have seen them and they are pretty robust.  You are less likely to get bored eating those than the rest of us would eating the IMPs.
 
DND/CF has a publications entitled Religions in Canada which discusses various topics related to each recognized relgion in Canada.  It serves as a comprehensive guide for supervisors, it can be viewed on the Internet @:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/religions/engraph/religions00_e.asp
 
Trinity said:
REALLY?  We have Rabbis?  (not trying to show you up... just for info)

From the newest version of the  chaplains manual

I didn't know of any Rabbis.  But I am aware of one coming in to the army. 

I have dealt with muslims and issues on many occasions.  The military will provide spiritual care within the needs of your denomination.  If you needed an Iman (hope I spelled that right) for guidance one should be provided upon request.

But the chaplains are knowledgeable and do have many resources to help.

(If you do know a Rabbi in the Army, then please let me know. I would be most happy)

I may have posted a bit out of turn here; I remembered hearing the part about the CF accepting applicants, and may have (wrongly) assumed they are already serving at this point in time. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
 
If it makes you feel any better.

Takes just as long for a Chaplain to enrol than anyone else....  ::)
 
Hey Trinity,

I would be afraid to give them pushups though....all they have to do is talk tot he great RSM of the Universe and I will lie in purgatory to extras...

I remember many years of us doing training whether I taught on course or even within the regiment.  There would be many people who do to religion were restricted on what they ate.  But the meal line was what it was, and all they were able to eat were copious amounts of salad, breads and fruit.  I felt bad, really, as the days work can put a drain on you

I did eventually see the change, where at the beginning of the courses peoples dietry needs were taken down, and measures made to provide proper meals. 

Mind you I( tried to convince them to add Haggis to the IMP's, saying it was a regimental thingy and that didn't fly, so I did not bother with the fish on Friday request.


dileas

tess
 
As far as possible, the CF will accommodate the religious and dietary needs of its members, but it is also a two way street, service members need to carry out their tasks, so hair and beards must be short enough to wear protective gear like helmets and gas masks, members must be physically fit and available 24/7 on operations and so on.

Not necessairly.  This summer in Meaford, I saw a soldier with a beard down to his chest and wearing a purple turbin (sp?)...so dress regs don't always apply.
 
There are dress regs for Sikhs so they can have long beards and turbans I think.

And you won't find many Muslims decked out in a proper turban.
 
Two Cents are as follows;

We have several Muslim members in our unit.  Most are not the strict 'orthodox' type.  One fella a few years back kept a trimmed beard, maintained a strict diet, and prayer 5 times a day.  The unit was very understanding of his needs and worked hard to address them.  I believe this was before kosser and halal meals.  The unit would instead provide money to cover the cost of supplmentry meals that the troop would go out and get himself.  They did this with other vegetarian members, ( sick, vegan, etc...). 

On a side note:
I've been in for a bit and and being a vegetarian, (I'm a religious Sikh, and no I'm not the guy with the purple turban from meaford), I can tell you eating mac and cheese for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for half a dozen years worth of ex's sucks. 


I think it comes down to a happy solider is a good solider.  These are very small accommodations.  Showing a touch of respect and understanding can make a world of difference to a solider.  The face of Canada is always changing and the CF needs to be somewhat adaptable.

DSB
 
amen to that.

I would go nuts too if all I had was the mac and cheese.

Canadian society is reflecting the the people who immigrate here, I beleive the forces should start to change to accommodate that.

I can wait for Pasta Fasul to be introduced to the IMP's

Pasta Fasul

1 cup dry great northern beans or white beans
1 16 ounce can Italian plum tomatoes
2 medium carrots, chopped
1 medium onion, chopped
dash of garlic salt to taste
3 cups beef broth or beef bouillon
2 cloves garlic, minced
1 teaspoon dried basil, crushed
1 teaspoon sugar
salt and freshly ground pepper to taste
1/2 cup elbow macaroni

Rinse beans thoroughly, place in a large pot and cover with cold water. Bring to a boil for one minute, shut off the heat, cover and let stand for 1 hour, then drain. Chop tomatoes and stir in with juice, carrots, onion, beef broth, sugar, salt, pepper, garlic, garlic salt, salt and pepper and basil. Cover and simmer about 1 1/2 hours or until beans are tender. Cook uncovered for another 1/2 hr to thicken. Mash beans slightly. Bring to broiling; stir in pasta. Cook uncovered, just until pasta is tender al dente. Serve immediately. Makes 4 main dishes or 8 side dishes. Serve with grated Romano cheese​
 
Che said:
There are dress regs for Sikhs so they can have long beards and turbans I think.

Its all in the dress regs, turbans and beards are allowed.  Examples of how everything should look is there in black in white.  Both should not interfer with the gas mask and helmet use.


DSB
 
DSB said:
Its all in the dress regs, turbans and beards are allowed.   Examples of how everything should look is there in black in white.   Both should not interfer with the gas mask and helmet use.

Isn't there an issued turban?
 
Just a Sig Op said:
Isn't there an issued turban?

Yes,

Army
-Rifle green,(it takes a long time to get in the system).
-Olive drab for the field, (i only got this issued once, and that was cause my Sect Comd on my JNCO worked hard on it)Usually you just wait till the Rifle green fads, (due to the sun) and use it in the field.  My unit will let me buy a turban and submit a receipt.


Officers wear ribbons on their turbans, I think MPS would do that as well.  Not sure about Navy and airforce, but i do know that turbaned Sikhs have been in both branches.

DSB
 
DSB said:
-Olive drab for the field, (i only got this issued once, and that was cause my Sect Comd on my JNCO worked hard on it)Usually you just wait till the Rifle green fads, (due to the sun) and use it in the field.  My unit will let me buy a turban and submit a receipt.
Coming soon in CADPAT?
 
Easily done if you want...

The system may not have any, but I know someone who will make
up a few for you as long as you provide a sample.

PM if you're interested.
 
I changed the title to keep this one current - it is a good thread; some real interesting stuff here.

DSB, do you know if our regulations similar to Indian regulations?  I remember PBI talking about how both Hindu and Sikh observances were dealt with in the Indian Army and it seemed pretty reasonable (balancing personal faith with operational necessity).

Just curious to know if we took the lead from them or if ours are different.

Cheers,
Infanteer
 
Infanteer said:
I changed the title to keep this one current - it is a good thread; some real interesting stuff here.

DSB, do you know if our regulations similar to Indian regulations?   I remember PBI talking about how both Hindu and Sikh observances were dealt with in the Indian Army and it seemed pretty reasonable (balancing personal faith with operational necessity).

Just curious to know if we took the lead from them or if ours are different.

Cheers,
Infanteer

Heres how I see it;

1699 - Khalsa implemented by Siri Guru Gobind Singh, (this is when Sikhs get their religious 'uniform')
1846 - end of the first Anglo-Sikh war (essentiallythe end of the Sikh State)
1846 - 1st Sikh Regiment raised (first time Regiments fight for the crown)
1849 - complete annexation of Punjab

So Sikh military identity was instilledlong before an Indian Identity was formed.  The Sikhs fought for the Crown (hence, had regs in place ) long before the concept of a Sub-Continent identity  The Indian forces adopted the British standards, mind you Sikhs do not wear helmets over their.  They actually put helmet netting and scrim on their turbans.


They still make up a huge amount of the Indianforce, especially when you consider they are less than 2 percent of the popultion, (in Canada Sikhs make up about 1 percent of the population  Its a minority group that had 83 005 killed and 109 045 wounded in the two World Wars.

DSB
 
The new Pope, like John Paul II before him, has warned against the "tyrrany of relativism". We as soldiers should understand this, since military doctrine is (or should be) like the examples in the article below; a set of principles that evolve slowly with time and experience, and that we mess with at our own risk.

The Pope Is Still Catholic
Gallup doesn't sit in the chair of St. Peter. Thank Heaven!

By Ned Rice

Last week's announcement of a new pope â ” made maddeningly more difficult by the fact that St. Peter's Basilica was declared a "smoke-free zone" last year â ” was greeted worldwide with groans of disapproval by the usual secularists, leftists, and other non-Catholics. Which is to say, mostly those whose lives were least likely to be affected, like Maureen Dowd. Oh, and Andrew Sullivan was "appalled" by Josef Ratzinger's selection as the new pope. As a frequent admirer of Sullivan's work I am appalled at Andrew's state of appallment â ” and I'm not one to make up words like "appallment" lightly. I immediately assumed that Andrew's beef with the new pope concerns his favorite issue: gay marriage. But he assures us that that's not the case. Surprising, as a truly liberal Holy Father might have moved the Church towards the proverbial, doctrinal hat trick: allowing actively gay men to be Catholics, then ordaining them as priests, and then allowing them to marry their male partners. There's a name for churches that condone that sort of thing, and that name is "Episcopalian.â ?

It's striking how those who seem most upset that the Church hasn't taken the opportunity of a papal change to set a more liberal course on social issues are the same people who (in the realm of politics) favor a Constitution that's considerably more open to creative interpretation with regard to these same issues. Well, either striking or utterly, hellishly predictable.

In either case, at issue here is the notion of a fixed set of standards versus the ebb and flow of public opinion over the course of time: Which should have a greater role in determining public (or church) policy? In other words, are the Ten Commandments a living, breathing document that must constantly evolve in order to remain relevant in an ever-changing world? Or to put it another way, where is it written that we all the right to speech, religion, a free press, assembly, and gun ownership, among other things? Well, O.K., I mean besides the Constitution?

The Founding Fathers knew that mores and customs come and go like fashion, and that a new legislature was bound to enact any number of bad laws guided by nothing more than the shifting winds of public opinion. Especially with a nutcake like John Adams in Congress. So they created a standard â ” the Constitution â ” with which all new laws would have to be compatible or else they couldn't become laws.

Among the many things the Founding Fathers wisely anticipated was that they couldn't anticipate everything. So they also built in a mechanism for amending the Constitution so it could be fixed and rigid, yet still capable of evolving. Which came in pretty handy when we finally figured out that women and non-white people have rights, that slavery is immoral, that alcohol is evil, that no alcohol is worse, and so on. They purposefully made it much harder to amend the Constitution than to just pass a law, though, which is why the Family and Medical Leave Act is something most people either laugh at or just ignore and not a God-given right.

Likewise our Founding Father (is it O.K. to call Him that?) realized the importance of having a set of rigid standards that would supercede the trends and whims of human behavior. Which is why, as the story goes, He dictated a set of Commandments to Moses. Which, over the millennia, among other things, gave rise to today's Roman Catholic Church. A church whose dogma (as described in its Creed) is almost impossible to change, and whose doctrine (the rules that evolved thereafter based on the Commandments and the teachings of Christ) is systematically dictated by the Vatican, through the ultimate in inspiration.

So having a "living, breathing" Constitution, whose meanings can shift as easily as, say, having an associate justice hear about some new trend in European law at brunch, obviously defeats the whole purpose of having a (relatively, not absolutely) fixed Constitution. Likewise, if you believe that your church was literally founded by the Son of God, based on principles he personally handed down to His followers (as Catholics do), why would you make your church's doctrine conveniently open to revision by its flock? It's like deliberately designing a bucket with holes in it, then wondering why it won't hold any water.

And that, folks, is pretty much how it works. The Catholic Church is not a democracy, or even a representative democracy. They don't decide things by a show of hands, other than Bingo, and even then all winners have to be verified. The Church doesn't use focus groups. The pope doesn't go on listening tours. There's no website that lets the faithful interactively change church doctrine based on how many hits it receives. Catholics don't choose new gods to worship with the help of their good friends at A. T. & T. Wireless â ” although if they did the process would still look and sound remarkably like American Idol. The Church is not a democracy, and part of being Catholic is being cool with that.

So if you think this or any other pope is just plain wrong on celibacy or homosexuality or anything else big, and this upsets you so much it interferes with your spiritual life, you'd be well advised to find yourself another church. Otherwise you're like the orthodox Jew who, in light of recent developments, has taken it upon himself to decide that it's all right for him to eat pork. You can be an orthodox Jew, and you can eat pork. You're free to do either one. But folks, you just can't do both. There are names for Catholics who don't accept that they can't do certain things and still receive the sacraments, and one of those names is Senator John Kerry.

Andrew Sullivan points out correctly that the Catholic Church has changed over the years, offering examples such as Vatican II and absolving the Jews for Christ's death. But those changes weren't dogmatic, as a liberalization of the Church's views on abortion or homosexuality would be, and they certainly weren't the result of a town-hall meeting or an online poll. They came about as a result of years of prayer and reflection from within the Vatican, not because of a particularly meaningful Oprah episode.

As opposed to the changes that came about as a result of agitators demanding that the Church become more "relevant," such as barefoot guitar masses, bearded, "cool" priests, and the bashing of forearms combined with the muttering of "aw-ite" as the Sign of Peace. Come to think of it, wasn't the Sign of Peace itself added to the Mass right about the time the first Billy Jack movie was released? I rest my case.

If you have misgivings about leaving a church even though it no longer represents your more socially liberal views, consider the example of the new pope's namesake St. Benedict. Sent to Rome for his pastoral studies during the sixth century, young Benedict was so repelled by the debauchery he found there that he fled the city to pursue his studies in solitude. (How decadent was Rome back in those days? Their official slogan was "What happens in Rome, stays in Rome"). Lured out of retirement by a group of monks who wanted him as their leader, he soon wore out his welcome with them, too, by being too strict. (This guy Benedict was like the Larry Brown of guys who founded their own religious orders).

Finally, for those who would chafe under the yoke of commandments, or a catechism, or a constitution, or the mission statement every Taco Bell employee has to read, or any other articulation of first principles, consider the words of Cardinal Ratzinger shortly before he became the new pope. Warning of the "tyranny of relativism" that's become so pervasive, Cardinal Ratzinger argued that it's better to be guided by time-honored principles of morality than to be endlessly buffeted about by the myriad whims of conventional wisdom in the name of "freedom." With the clear implication being, if you don't like these principles the rest of us here have agreed to live by, maybe this isn't the Church for you. Or as my Dad used to say during dinner, if you don't like what we're serving here, try next door.

â ” Ned Rice is a staff writer on the new and improved CBS talk show The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson. Rice is also an NRO contributor.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/rice200504250753.asp
 
Hence why we are supposed to have separation of church and state.  As I understand it, religion should be rigid, everyone who believes in it should abide letter for letter the bible, unless Jesus or God put out a new version I am not aware of.  Politics are a human creation which is evolving and ever changing, to reflect the majority wishes of society.  I dont see how the Pope's views on anything, should affect anything other than the way that catholics live their personal lives.  But this article is only one guy's opinion, as this is mine, and you know what they say about opinions.
 
Another article

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Ian_Robinson/2005/04/24/1010688.html
 
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