Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[childs56]

Interesting news. I wonder who all got paid off in this situation?

Russian Company Supplied Untested Armor Plates for Oshkosh Vehicles for Two Years

For about two years, employees at Evraz North America Inc., a Russian-owned steel plant operator in the US, falsified quality control test results on some armored plating for the vehicle’s manufacturer.

mil.in.ua

 

[Kirkhill]

So, I am a fan of the Senator.

But. If true. $464,650 per unit. That is a bit steep for me.

AI Overview
Learn more

The Roshel Senator Armored Personnel Carrier (APC) has been sold to Ukraine by Canada for approximately $464,650 per unit.

Here's a breakdown of the information:

• Price:
  In January 2023, Canada announced a deal for 200 Senator APCs to Ukraine, with a total cost of $90 million CAD (US$67.3 million).
  
  
• Unit Price:
  This translates to roughly $464,650 per vehicle.
  
  
• Other Contracts
  In April 2022, a contract was signed for 8 APCs at a cost of $325,000 per unit, whereas the company says it was $370,000.
  
  
• Roshel Smart Armoured Vehicles:
  The Senator APC is produced by Roshel Smart Armoured Vehicles, a company headquartered in Brampton, Ontario, Canada.
  
  
• Purpose:
  The Senator APC is a light armored military vehicle used to transport personnel, constructed with ballistic protection.

A utility vehicle for domestic service should be somewhere around the $50-60,000 mark. Some variant of the F250-350, Ram 2500-3500, Silverado 2500-3500.

The Swedes have opted for this runabout - initial order of 400 with an intent to purchase a fleet of 3000.



Myself I would be looking for an interior something like this - a more utilitarian, dual function vehicle for both troops and cargo.



Basically a sturdy, weatherproof runabout that can carry a section to a training area on the highway and follow a forestry reserve road to a cutline. And maybe even manage the cutline, as well as perform as both a CQ and Coy CP.


If we are going to splash out 500,000 for a vehicle then might as well go whole hog and put that money toward Bandvagns and LAV IIs.

The IFVs should be purchased along with the tanks as a matched set.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Interesting news. I wonder who all got paid off in this situation?

Russian Company Supplied Untested Armor Plates for Oshkosh Vehicles for Two Years

For about two years, employees at Evraz North America Inc., a Russian-owned steel plant operator in the US, falsified quality control test results on some armored plating for the vehicle’s manufacturer.

mil.in.ua

Biden, Sleepy Joe got paid. According to Trump's Republicans its always Sleepy Joe.

 

[McG]

The Swedes have opted for this …

That is the modern generation of LSVW from the original design owner.

You are being redirected...

 

[MilEME09]

So, I am a fan of the Senator.

But. If true. $464,650 per unit. That is a bit steep for me.



A utility vehicle for domestic service should be somewhere around the $50-60,000 mark. Some variant of the F250-350, Ram 2500-3500, Silverado 2500-3500.

The Swedes have opted for this runabout - initial order of 400 with an intent to purchase a fleet of 3000.

View attachment 91867

Myself I would be looking for an interior something like this - a more utilitarian, dual function vehicle for both troops and cargo.

View attachment 91868

Basically a sturdy, weatherproof runabout that can carry a section to a training area on the highway and follow a forestry reserve road to a cutline. And maybe even manage the cutline, as well as perform as both a CQ and Coy CP.


If we are going to splash out 500,000 for a vehicle then might as well go whole hog and put that money toward Bandvagns and LAV IIs.

The IFVs should be purchased along with the tanks as a matched set.

It aint perfect but its a infantry mobility vehicle, not an infantry fighting vehicle. What I see great promise with is the senator truck.



With the right modifications I bet we could mount various systems into the back such as RBS-70, or Spike

 

[Kirkhill]

That is the modern generation of LSVW from the original design owner.

You are being redirected...

Yep.

Keep Western Star out of it. In fairness IVECO has sold a lot of vehicles over the years so they must have been doing more right than wrong.

On the other hand IVECO's original LSVW was pretty much a bog standard production line vehicle commonly found on the streets of Europe. Slightly militarized.

In Canada we tend to go for military exotics and buy them once a generation when that last bearing has seized.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Not sure if anyone has read this article yet. Its on 'increased' military spending in the Arctic.

DND walks back entirety of minister’s ‘substantial increase’ pledge

Last week, Canada's defence minister announced a "substantially increased investment" in northern military hubs. DND now says there's no new money at all.

cabinradio.ca

Our old friend - accounting - enters into the room, looks around, sizes things up and then walks into the middle of the room drops its pants and takes a nice smelly deuce and then walks out smiling.

DND walks back entirety of minister’s ‘substantial increase’ pledge​

Canada’s defence minister last week pledged a “substantially increased investment” in new northern military hubs, suggesting the figure had increased more than ten-fold. But it wasn’t true.​

In 2024, the federal government had said $218 million would be available to build those hubs – but only $18 million in the opening five years, a low sum for infrastructure in the North.

Asked by Cabin Radio about the $218 million and the smaller figure for the next five years, Blair replied: “I’ll be announcing a substantially increased investment in the northern operational support hubs today. It’s about $2.67 billion and it’s our intent to move quickly so that could be done over the next five years.”

According to DND, what actually happened is the department decided to switch the type of accounting it was using to get its figures, without telling anyone. (Whether even the minister knew or fully understood this is unclear, based on his statements.)

There are two types of accounting going on here. One is cash-basis accounting and the other is accrual accounting.
Let’s say you receive $20,000 from a particularly nice aunt to make your yard nicer. Your aunt expects you to gradually spend it over 20 years.
Cash-basis accounting would mean entering $20,000 in the column for the year that you got the money. Job done, thanks for coming, the end.

Accrual accounting would be more likely to mean entering $1,000 for each of the 20 years that form the expected life of the yard project. It still equals $20,000, but it’s spread over time.

We could spend a lifetime discussing which system accountants might pick in a given situation and why.

For the purposes of this article: the federal government picked the accrual system when it first announced the money in April 2024, then magically and silently changed to the cash-basis system last week. When asked about it, the minister responsible said it was an increase instead of explaining the accounting change.
De Casanove said the federal government switched to the cash-basis figure because $2.67 billion “more accurately captures the broader financial commitment being made to strengthen Arctic infrastructure and operations.”

According to the Library of Parliament, the Canadian government has used full accrual accounting for its budget since 2003.

 

[The Bread Guy]

So, I am a fan of the Senator.

But. If true. $464,650 per unit. That is a bit steep for me ...

If DND & Anita Anand are to be believed ...

Defence Minister Anita Anand visits Kyiv, meets with Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov, and announces donation of 200 additional armoured vehicles - Canada.ca

Today, Defence Minister Anita Anand is visiting Kyiv, Ukraine, to reaffirm Canada’s unwavering solidarity with Ukraine and to meet with Ukrainian officials, including Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov.

www.canada.ca

... 200 units for CAN$90M = CAN$450K each. Sounds right.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not sure if anyone has read this article yet. Its on 'increased' military spending in the Arctic.

DND walks back entirety of minister’s ‘substantial increase’ pledge

Last week, Canada's defence minister announced a "substantially increased investment" in northern military hubs. DND now says there's no new money at all.

cabinradio.ca

Our old friend - accounting - enters into the room, looks around, sizes things up and then walks into the middle of the room drops its pants and takes a nice smelly deuce and then walks out smiling.

DND walks back entirety of minister’s ‘substantial increase’ pledge​

Canada’s defence minister last week pledged a “substantially increased investment” in new northern military hubs, suggesting the figure had increased more than ten-fold. But it wasn’t true.​

In 2024, the federal government had said $218 million would be available to build those hubs – but only $18 million in the opening five years, a low sum for infrastructure in the North.

Asked by Cabin Radio about the $218 million and the smaller figure for the next five years, Blair replied: “I’ll be announcing a substantially increased investment in the northern operational support hubs today. It’s about $2.67 billion and it’s our intent to move quickly so that could be done over the next five years.”

According to DND, what actually happened is the department decided to switch the type of accounting it was using to get its figures, without telling anyone. (Whether even the minister knew or fully understood this is unclear, based on his statements.)

There are two types of accounting going on here. One is cash-basis accounting and the other is accrual accounting.
Let’s say you receive $20,000 from a particularly nice aunt to make your yard nicer. Your aunt expects you to gradually spend it over 20 years.
Cash-basis accounting would mean entering $20,000 in the column for the year that you got the money. Job done, thanks for coming, the end.

Accrual accounting would be more likely to mean entering $1,000 for each of the 20 years that form the expected life of the yard project. It still equals $20,000, but it’s spread over time.

We could spend a lifetime discussing which system accountants might pick in a given situation and why.

For the purposes of this article: the federal government picked the accrual system when it first announced the money in April 2024, then magically and silently changed to the cash-basis system last week. When asked about it, the minister responsible said it was an increase instead of explaining the accounting change.
De Casanove said the federal government switched to the cash-basis figure because $2.67 billion “more accurately captures the broader financial commitment being made to strengthen Arctic infrastructure and operations.”

According to the Library of Parliament, the Canadian government has used full accrual accounting for its budget since 2003.

First problem was letting somebody name of Casanova anywhere near a project.

 

[KevinB]

It aint perfect but its a infantry mobility vehicle, not an infantry fighting vehicle. What I see great promise with is the senator truck.

View attachment 91872

With the right modifications I bet we could mount various systems into the back such as RBS-70, or Spike

FFS - the JLTV costs less than that, that is absolutely insane.


Or you could actually build a purpose built system off this...

Chassis

Chassis · AM General

www.amgeneral.com

 

[The Bread Guy]

FFS - the JLTV costs less than that, that is absolutely insane.


Or you could actually build a purpose built system off this...

Chassis

Chassis · AM General

www.amgeneral.com

Ah, but there's other medium-longer term benefits as well for one of the players involved

Canadian Roshel to Help Build Armored Vehicles in Ukraine

Ukrainian state-owned defense firm Ukroboronprom has signed an agreement with Canada’s Roshel for the joint production of armored vehicles in Ukraine.

thedefensepost.com

Ukraine and Canada to Jointly Produce Armored Personnel Carriers - Oj

JSC Ukrainian Defense Industry and Canada’s Roshel will co-produce armored personnel carriers in Ukraine, boosting defense capabilities and local manufacturing.

odessa-journal.com

Canada and Ukraine Partner for Domestic Production of Roshel Senator Armored Vehicles news

On February 24, 2025, Canada’s Roshel and Ukraine’s Ukroboronprom signed an agreement to jointly produce Roshel Senator armored personnel carriers (APCs) in Ukraine. The collaboration will accelerate

global.tendernews.com

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So, I am a fan of the Senator.

But. If true. $464,650 per unit. That is a bit steep for me.



A utility vehicle for domestic service should be somewhere around the $50-60,000 mark. Some variant of the F250-350, Ram 2500-3500, Silverado 2500-3500.

The Swedes have opted for this runabout - initial order of 400 with an intent to purchase a fleet of 3000.

View attachment 91867

Myself I would be looking for an interior something like this - a more utilitarian, dual function vehicle for both troops and cargo.

View attachment 91868

Basically a sturdy, weatherproof runabout that can carry a section to a training area on the highway and follow a forestry reserve road to a cutline. And maybe even manage the cutline, as well as perform as both a CQ and Coy CP.


If we are going to splash out 500,000 for a vehicle then might as well go whole hog and put that money toward Bandvagns and LAV IIs.

The IFVs should be purchased along with the tanks as a matched set.

I can just about guarantee a bunch of these would be sent to the reserves. They would lose whatever tactical vehicles they have and be told "this is a great replacement. Just for training, mind you. You're roadbound anyway. We'll just keep your other stuff for you until you need it. OK?"

 

[PrairieFella]

I can just about guarantee a bunch of these would be sent to the reserves. They would lose whatever tactical vehicles they have and be told "this is a great replacement. Just for training, mind you. You're roadbound anyway. We'll just keep your other stuff for you until you need it. OK?"

Lmao, which vehicles will we lose? There's none left anyways. This would be a massive upgrade compared to our rusted out LUVW (SMP and Milcots) and our ranger 1000s.

 

[PrairieFella]

FFS - the JLTV costs less than that, that is absolutely insane.


Or you could actually build a purpose built system off this...

Chassis

Chassis · AM General

www.amgeneral.com

JTLV costs at least about 100k a piece more once you adjust for CAD. Nevermind the fact the price tag is probably Canadian style so it includes every kleenex a worker used et al. That said, I've never seen the contract so it could be straight up.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

According to this article Roshel has delivered 1700 Senator vehicles to Ukraine at a cost of $600,00.00 CDN ($416,000.00 USD).

New Milestone: Roshel Delivers 1700th Senator Armored Vehicle to the Ukrainian Defense Forces

Roshel, the Canadian armored vehicle manufacturer, has delivered its 1700th Senator to Ukraine.

mil.in.ua

 

[Retired AF Guy]

JTLV costs at least about 100k a piece more once you adjust for CAD. Nevermind the fact the price tag is probably Canadian style so it includes every kleenex a worker used et al. That said, I've never seen the contract so it could be straight up.

This Forbes article from 01 Feb 2022, states the average cost for the JLTV is between $370,000.00 and $400,000.00 USD ($533,000.00 and $575,000 CDN).*

Oshkosh Defense’s Hybrid JLTV May Offer the Army Some Advantages — For A Price

The U.S. Army has been looking at the advantages of electrifying its fleet. While these could be useful, a hybrid Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV) prototype developed by Oshkosh Defense shows they won’t come cheap.

www.forbes.com

*Numbers have been rounded up.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

It aint perfect but its a infantry mobility vehicle, not an infantry fighting vehicle. What I see great promise with is the senator truck.

View attachment 91872

With the right modifications I bet we could mount various systems into the back such as RBS-70, or Spike

Or a CP Pod, RRB, Line CLAK, Amb Pod, Coy level CSS.....

There is value in providing a modicum of protection to the other echelons. Not everything has to be a kill capable platform to be valuable

 

[PrairieFella]

This Forbes article from 01 Feb 2022, states the average cost for the JLTV is between $370,000.00 and $400,000.00 USD ($533,000.00 and $575,000 CDN).*

Oshkosh Defense’s Hybrid JLTV May Offer the Army Some Advantages — For A Price

The U.S. Army has been looking at the advantages of electrifying its fleet. While these could be useful, a hybrid Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV) prototype developed by Oshkosh Defense shows they won’t come cheap.

www.forbes.com

*Numbers have been rounded up.

Let's call it 385k to keep it neat. 385k in 2022 dollars to now is $436,946.27 according the US gov calculator (CPI Inflation Calculator)

437k to CAD at today's exchange rate is $629436.40. Nevermind shipping, taxes and tariffs.

I'll try and do some digging on the Roshel price, I've seen several different prices and I'm curious if there is any hard data out there. The tricky bit is finding anything on the Gen 2 Senator MRAP which is likely to be the entrant in LUV.

 

[KevinB]

This Forbes article from 01 Feb 2022, states the average cost for the JLTV is between $370,000.00 and $400,000.00 USD ($533,000.00 and $575,000 CDN).*

Oshkosh Defense’s Hybrid JLTV May Offer the Army Some Advantages — For A Price

The U.S. Army has been looking at the advantages of electrifying its fleet. While these could be useful, a hybrid Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV) prototype developed by Oshkosh Defense shows they won’t come cheap.

www.forbes.com

*Numbers have been rounded up.

Let's call it 385k to keep it neat. 385k in 2022 dollars to now is $436,946.27 according the US gov calculator (CPI Inflation Calculator)

437k to CAD at today's exchange rate is $629436.40. Nevermind shipping, taxes and tariffs.

I'll try and do some digging on the Roshel price, I've seen several different prices and I'm curious if there is any hard data out there. The tricky bit is finding anything on the Gen 2 Senator MRAP which is likely to be the entrant in LUV.

JLTV was re-competed in 2023, and is now $375k/ unit USD
FMS pricing is IVO 400k USD for FY25

 

[Seyek]

According to this article Roshel has delivered 1700 Senator vehicles to Ukraine at a cost of $600,00.00 CDN ($416,000.00 USD).

New Milestone: Roshel Delivers 1700th Senator Armored Vehicle to the Ukrainian Defense Forces

Roshel, the Canadian armored vehicle manufacturer, has delivered its 1700th Senator to Ukraine.

mil.in.ua

That's more than the initial 200 Canada paid for, I don't think there are actual public details on contracts Roshel has with Ukraine for the vehicles they've been buying beyond that, but maybe including RWS, further design refinements, added protection, comms gear? could all be adding to it. Only way to see what it would cost us to buy them would be to see what comes out with the LUV program, or offer a separate RFP.

JLTV was re-competed in 2023, and is now $375k/ unit USD
FMS pricing is IVO 400k USD for FY25

Which is about $577k CAD today. Better purpose built vehicle, but as a LUV replacement I think the Senator's fine. LUV replacement project seems to have a budget of 250-500 million, and the only numbers I've seen publicly are 1600, so even at the top end we're looking at more like $300k per vehicle (less, really, given other aspects covered under that project budget) if we're serious about sticking to that budget, and Roshel offering that number of Senators. I have strong doubts given how good we are at budgets with defence projects. Buying Roshel keeps most of the money in Canada as well.

If we just want to boost spending short term to meet NATO goals, I think infrastructure investment, housing, childcare, stuff like proper numbers of STANO and personal equipment like body armour, increased O&M funding, and a pay bump are all better before rush buying Senators. But I don't think it's the worst idea, either separate from the LUV project, or to accelarate/expand that project, we could always sell/donate them down the road if we select a better platform in the future and chalk that up as foreign aid by donating to the UN or friendly countries as security assistance.