High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Kilted]

Your NDI 75 is coded into your PRESTO card. So, as of March 1, you can ride the entire GO system 8 passenger rail lines
including the Union-Pearson ( UP ) Express, anytime for free.

How do you do that? We are at like D-5 and I still haven't heard how this is supposed to work. Do I just not tap my presto card show military ID if the Fare Protection people come by?

 

[FSTO]

I'm sorry but that's a complete fallacy. We're both good Manitoba boys and obviously we both understand that HSR doesn't make sense here. The Brandon to Winnipeg corridor doesn't even come close to the population of Montréal for example. But I don't begrudge my fellow countrymen to the East because this project makes sense and can only exist in dense corridors. This could improve their lives and indirectly improve my life since it's projected to boost our GDP in a noticeable fashion. It's a nation building slam dunk. We need nation building now more than ever and hell, this can help keep our steel and concrete industry alive with the incoming economic warfare from the Orange Lad. If we're being completely introspective here, I'm almost certain if Prime Minister Poilievre announced this this thread would be far less hostile but partisanship is taking precedence here. We all have our biases and that is often deserved by the Liberals, but that doesn't mean they can't be right from time to time. This is a time they're right and they brought the best partner possible on board for it (SNCF).

Third MB boy. I’d love to have passenger rail ( normal speed) back on the prairie. Especially since the demise of buses.

 

[PrairieFella]

Third MB boy. I’d love to have passenger rail ( normal speed) back on the prairie. Especially since the demise of buses.

You and me both man, but unfortunately it just isn't feasible. There is an argument that can be made that by using the short trackage you can run a corridor from Winkler/Morden all the way to Gimli via Winnipeg but it's like 3 different short lines and the tracks are rough. My grandfather was a lucky man to be able to take a train to Grand Beach, party with the girls at the giant dance hall, hit the boardwalk and the beach and then take the night train home.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

How do you do that? We are at like D-5 and I still haven't heard how this is supposed to work. Do I just not tap my presto card show military ID if the Fare Protection people come by?

And I've searched hard....after hockey this morning I'm going to the station here and ask in person, while I pick up a Presto card.

 

[KevinB]

Doesn’t look like suitable stability to make a HSR line.

I know absolutely nothing about HSR, but given the climate and topography, Japan would be the most similar to that area as opposed to European HSR.

 

[OldSolduer]

You will excuse my doubts on this, thank you to the Government Of Canada and its corrupt Liberal Party majority. If the sky were blue and they told me it was blue I would seek a second opinion.

 

[mariomike]

How do you do that? We are at like D-5 and I still haven't heard how this is supposed to work. Do I just not tap my presto card show military ID if the Fare Protection people come by?

Was at Port Credit GO Train Station today.

Asked the Station Attendant. She said they would code the NDI 75 on the PRESTO card on 1 March.

There are 8 GO train lines.

These are the GO bus lines.

 

[lenaitch]

My guess is that if Trudeau wasn't attached to it the attitudes would change somewhat...

This. He's done precious little of anything that could be considered 'nation building' in his political life; actually, quite the opposite.

 

[lenaitch]

What's the appropriate response to some bullshit that wanting better infrastructure is not Canadian?

Then you counter point with point; not reduce the discussion to a school yard 'so's your mother' level.

Tropes like 'boomer' and 'snowflake' are, depending on the receiver, considered dismissive, insulting or ageist.
They are no different than saying 'ok [insert a derogatory term for race, colour or religion].

You are now on IGNORE.

I think I will join you.

 

[lenaitch]

If I have my history correct, railways were granted extensive land holdings on both sides of their proposed lines on the condition that they provide passenger service. When they found that there wasn't the passenger volume on the lines to justify dedicated service they dropped the passengers which are labour intensive in lieu of more freight. When CN and CP discovered that running transport trucks could handle the freight volumes on most branch lines, they dropped them too and sold off the land. In their defense, the taxes that towns were levying on the tracks through the towns was a major factor. Road taxes for the truck are a lot lower than property taxes. I fully agree with your aspirational principle at least for urban dwellers. But a street car can easily be designed to safely travel at 100 km/hr. so adding trackage on every major highway shouldn't be a problem. Giving VIA its own track within the railway right of way shouldn't be a serious problem either: give CN a tax break. My point is, we can provide transportation solutions that will benefit all 8 million occupants of the Great Lakes/ST Lawrence corridor and not just the few lucky souls who live near one of what, 5 stops.

Founding railways, CP and the predecessors of CN, were given land grants by the government, which they could in turn sell. It was a way of government financially supporting railway construction without actually giving them money; simply give them the rights to Crown land that you claimed but didn't actually pay for. A friend had a camp (cottage) near Lake Superior that was on land leased from Algoma Central ($75/year back in the '80s)

This was long before the railways dropped passenger service. Post WWII, passenger service was becoming increasingly unpopular and therefoe unprofitable with expansion of the personal auto and highways. VIA Rail wasn't formed and the Class Is didn't wind up their passenger services until the late 1970s. I suppose the government could have told the railways to maintain their passenger service and subsidized it. Pick you method of government support. Also, a lot of the former passenger network were on lines that simply don't exist anymore because they weren't even profitable as freight services.

Trying to align HSR with other rail (and it's not VIA driving this proposal - they were written out of the script) runs into the problem of different requirements for track profile (elevation, curvatures, etc.). Even mingling non-high speed passenger with freight, passenger trains are shorter, lighter and faster. Trying to keep any kind of meaningful schedule while operating among freight trains that can take several times more to get to or from a speed that is half of that of a passenger train is the challenge. The answer is more tracks, if there is room, as well as things like higher speed switches.

Adding tracks to major highways? So, subtract a lane? Even in an urban setting, the design standard now is to avoid on-street LRTs. Again, you run into different alignment requirements. Roads can get away with steeper grades and tighter curves than rails can.

 

[Kilted]

Was at Port Credit GO Train Station today.

Asked the Station Attendant. She said they would code the NDI 75 on the PRESTO card on 1 March.

There are 8 GO train lines.

These are the GO bus lines.

View attachment 91558

So do you have to go to a station to get it done, or they magically going to know everyone who qualifies.

 

[mariomike]

So do you have to go to a station to get it done, or they magically going to know everyone who qualifies.

The Station Attendant said to go to a station on, or after, 1 March to get your NDI 75 coded into your PRESTO by a station attendant.

GO Transit will not "magically going to know everyone who qualifies."

 

[YZT580]

Founding railways, CP and the predecessors of CN, were given land grants by the government, which they could in turn sell. It was a way of government financially supporting railway construction without actually giving them money; simply give them the rights to Crown land that you claimed but didn't actually pay for. A friend had a camp (cottage) near Lake Superior that was on land leased from Algoma Central ($75/year back in the '80s)

This was long before the railways dropped passenger service. Post WWII, passenger service was becoming increasingly unpopular and therefoe unprofitable with expansion of the personal auto and highways. VIA Rail wasn't formed and the Class Is didn't wind up their passenger services until the late 1970s. I suppose the government could have told the railways to maintain their passenger service and subsidized it. Pick you method of government support. Also, a lot of the former passenger network were on lines that simply don't exist anymore because they weren't even profitable as freight services.

Trying to align HSR with other rail (and it's not VIA driving this proposal - they were written out of the script) runs into the problem of different requirements for track profile (elevation, curvatures, etc.). Even mingling non-high speed passenger with freight, passenger trains are shorter, lighter and faster. Trying to keep any kind of meaningful schedule while operating among freight trains that can take several times more to get to or from a speed that is half of that of a passenger train is the challenge. The answer is more tracks, if there is room, as well as things like higher speed switches.

Adding tracks to major highways? So, subtract a lane? Even in an urban setting, the design standard now is to avoid on-street LRTs. Again, you run into different alignment requirements. Roads can get away with steeper grades and tighter curves than rails can.

ICE doesn't seem to have a major problem with intermediate stops on their HSR. As an example it is a 2 hour run from Brussels to Cologne with a distance of 211 km. The train makes 2 stops enroute so it is only averaging 100 kph.. So I checked several other routes and they come up the same. They seem to have set 100 Kmh as a target speed. Frankfurt to Munich for example is just under 4 hours for slightly over 400 km but with again, 2 intermediate stops. So if 100 km is a reasonable target for each segment one could easily break the PQ/OW route into 4 with a stop near Tweed and near Perth and spokes running south to service the 401 corridor. On all the routes in Germany, frequency is the key

 

[lenaitch]

ICE doesn't seem to have a major problem with intermediate stops on their HSR. As an example it is a 2 hour run from Brussels to Cologne with a distance of 211 km. The train makes 2 stops enroute so it is only averaging 100 kph.. So I checked several other routes and they come up the same. They seem to have set 100 Kmh as a target speed. Frankfurt to Munich for example is just under 4 hours for slightly over 400 km but with again, 2 intermediate stops. So if 100 km is a reasonable target for each segment one could easily break the PQ/OW route into 4 with a stop near Tweed and near Perth and spokes running south to service the 401 corridor. On all the routes in Germany, frequency is the key

Heck, if the target is 100kph they can achieve better than that now on the corridor (CN Kingston sub) which has a general speed limit of 153 kph (not counting reduced sections). Conflict with freight is the issue.

 

[PrairieFella]

ICE doesn't seem to have a major problem with intermediate stops on their HSR. As an example it is a 2 hour run from Brussels to Cologne with a distance of 211 km. The train makes 2 stops enroute so it is only averaging 100 kph.. So I checked several other routes and they come up the same. They seem to have set 100 Kmh as a target speed. Frankfurt to Munich for example is just under 4 hours for slightly over 400 km but with again, 2 intermediate stops. So if 100 km is a reasonable target for each segment one could easily break the PQ/OW route into 4 with a stop near Tweed and near Perth and spokes running south to service the 401 corridor. On all the routes in Germany, frequency is the key

That is commuter rail, not high speed. 100kmh is like the big standard normal train ride in Europe.

 

[quadrapiper]

To not so much beat the drum as play riffs upon it, and noting the phase-out of passenger rail post war, but on VI the IIRC 1914 steam passenger schedule is competitive with both the current fractured commuter bus service and with driving, and likely much more reliable than both.

I wonder how much of the drop in rail passenger traffic was due to urban areas getting bit by the 'Murican Freeways Bug and canning the dense transit networks that would make jumping on the train to come into town a reasonable option, as you wouldn't need a car when you got to town.

Still, restarting the single track to Upper Blackfly, population 1500, probably doesn't make sense. Would be good, though, to find all the rights of way which still run through the majority of a region's population centres and get those back in service. It'll be expensive, but so's every other option, excepting everyone falling back into isolated townships and getting around on foot.

Have heard that new rail services tend to start more smoothly than new buses, given there's no issues with traffic clogging up the works.

 

[lenaitch]

Have heard that new rail services tend to start more smoothly than new buses, given there's no issues with traffic clogging up the works.

The downside is massive construction costs. A bus service starts with a fleet of buses and a garage; the road is already there.

 

[YZT580]

That is commuter rail, not high speed. 100kmh is like the big standard normal train ride in Europe.

I realize that but they don't seem to be too concerned with running non-stop. Google maps of all sources provided me with a time of 3:39 for the ICE which would certainly make the average speed greater than 100 but not by a lot. Their commuter train from Frankfurt to Munich is DB and there is only 20 minutes difference and it makes several more stops so go figure. Even the TGV from Paris to Marseille only averages about 200 so maybe we are getting to caught up in the "getting there" at the expense of the trip itself. I for one would rather take an extra 30 minutes on the trip from TO to Montreal if it meant that on the days I wanted to go to Kingston I could ride the same train and do so. Besides, VIA1 is the only civilized way to travel. (although Porter with their free beer are at least in the running)

 

[ytz]

I realize that but they don't seem to be too concerned with running non-stop. Google maps of all sources provided me with a time of 3:39 for the ICE which would certainly make the average speed greater than 100 but not by a lot. Their commuter train from Frankfurt to Munich is DB and there is only 20 minutes difference and it makes several more stops so go figure. Even the TGV from Paris to Marseille only averages about 200 so maybe we are getting to caught up in the "getting there" at the expense of the trip itself. I for one would rather take an extra 30 minutes on the trip from TO to Montreal if it meant that on the days I wanted to go to Kingston I could ride the same train and do

To a point. But there are step changes in demand at certain thresholds. Notably at travel times where rail is competitive with air door-to-door. The proposed 3 hr trip on Toronto-Montreal is a deliberate timing. If you start at Union and time what it would take to shuttle to the Island, pre-board, fly to Montreal, de-board and then take the REM downtown it works out to about 3 hrs. When it was HFR, the proposed travel time for this trip was 5 hrs, albeit with much higher reliability.

And that's exactly why they actually struggled to get bids from those large international rail companies. They don't see the point of building high frequency rail for a 500 km trip. This is the sweet spot for HSR.

The other problem is that once they decided they couldn't work with freight rail and once they found out how unusable that old corridor parallel to Hwy 7 was, well then, might as well spend the bucks.

This is what is interesting about the current process. The government demanded multiple bids, both HSR and HFR from each consortium. And asked for basic economic assessments on best return, lowest government investment, etc. We don't know what the other bids were. But they picked this one to develop for a reason. And even with this one, they will be able to descope as they proceed with design.

Lastly, on comparing to Germany, they are among the worst in continental Europe. Their HSR network is substantially hampered by regularly merging in to regular intercity and suburban rail networks. Nobody actually building something new should or would follow that example. Then again, we have a long tradition in Canada of comparing ourselves to the D student in the class, irrespective of the subject. So.....

 

[daftandbarmy]

To a point. But there are step changes in demand at certain thresholds. Notably at travel times where rail is competitive with air door-to-door. The proposed 3 hr trip on Toronto-Montreal is a deliberate timing. If you start at Union and time what it would take to shuttle to the Island, pre-board, fly to Montreal, de-board and then take the REM downtown it works out to about 3 hrs. When it was HFR, the proposed travel time for this trip was 5 hrs, albeit with much higher reliability.

And that's exactly why they actually struggled to get bids from those large international rail companies. They don't see the point of building high frequency rail for a 500 km trip. This is the sweet spot for HSR.

The other problem is that once they decided they couldn't work with freight rail and once they found out how unusable that old corridor parallel to Hwy 7 was, well then, might as well spend the bucks.

This is what is interesting about the current process. The government demanded multiple bids, both HSR and HFR from each consortium. And asked for basic economic assessments on best return, lowest government investment, etc. We don't know what the other bids were. But they picked this one to develop for a reason. And even with this one, they will be able to descope as they proceed with design.

Lastly, on comparing to Germany, they are among the worst in continental Europe. Their HSR network is substantially hampered by regularly merging in to regular intercity and suburban rail networks. Nobody actually building something new should or would follow that example. Then again, we have a long tradition in Canada of comparing ourselves to the D student in the class, irrespective of the subject. So.....

Yeah, DB is having 'issues'....

Over a third of Deutsche Bahn long-distance trains late – DW – 01/04/2025

Long-distance trains continued to face severe punctuality issues in 2024, with Deutsche Bahn saying it has drafted an "action plan" to combat delays. Regional trains, however, were much more reliable last year.

www.dw.com