Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

They would have to be Class C to really do anything with them wouldn't they ?

Even better!

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I sense korea is offering a deal we can't refuse

https://twitter.com/x/status/1899643501815419088

More details can be found here:

Let's talk about the Koreans

David ******** was the first to report of the recent meeting in Ottawa last week...

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Planning a fleet around the Roshel design is beyond stupid.

Any reason in particular; just curious.

 

[PuckChaser]

Any reason in particular; just curious.

Other than it only being good for hard packed roads in medium to low intensity conflict? It's a COIN vehicle, not a warfighting vehicle.

 

[Czech_pivo]

More details can be found here:

Let's talk about the Koreans

David ******** was the first to report of the recent meeting in Ottawa last week...

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com

Thanks for posting this - very informative.

I would like to think that someone in our government is reaching out to the Poles and meeting/discussing with them about their relationship with the SK's? What's working, what's not, what would you change, what wouldn't you change, what advice do you have for us, what can we work with you on today/in the future regarding commonality of SK purchase equipment, etc etc.

If we go into a military supply relationship with them we won't be alone within NATO thanks to Poland leading the way. In fact, if we go down this path it very well might open the door for other NATO members to follow the Poles and us.

 

[PrairieFella]

Other than it only being good for hard packed roads in medium to low intensity conflict? It's a COIN vehicle, not a warfighting vehicle.

No PMV is a warfighting vehicle. Take a JTLV or Mowag Eagle V to the FEBA, its getting smoked just like the BMPs or Strykers ir whatever. We don't need LUV to be an AFV, that is textbook role creep. The Roshel has been shown to be fine in Ukraine and the BDA ive seen puts it roughly in-line with its competitors. What we need is an A ech vehicle that can move troops and kit with some reasonable mine and small arms protection and can carry out RAS and logistical tasks. Fuether, it needs to be able to help train the ARes crewmen. If we want a light AFV, fine, I'm all for it as a cavalry soldier, but let's not pretend we'll be advancing to contact or conducting a guard with a jeep in battle. If we were doing that, the battle has probably already been lost.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Other than it only being good for hard packed roads in medium to low intensity conflict? It's a COIN vehicle, not a warfighting vehicle.

Maybe the RCMP can buy a dozen and use them around Cornwall for COIN operations? I say this tongue in check.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Thanks for posting this - very informative.

I would like to think that someone in our government is reaching out to the Poles and meeting/discussing with them about their relationship with the SK's? What's working, what's not, what would you change, what wouldn't you change, what advice do you have for us, what can we work with you on today/in the future regarding commonality of SK purchase equipment, etc etc.

If we go into a military supply relationship with them we won't be alone within NATO thanks to Poland leading the way. In fact, if we go down this path it very well might open the door for other NATO members to follow the Poles and us.

Canada and Poland if they haven't already, are supposed to sign a defence agreement for 2025-2026. More info from the Polish MoD:

Poland and Canada will soon sign a cooperation agreement for 2025-2026 - Ministry of National Defence - Gov.pl website

- Our intention is to conclude a comprehensive plan of joint activities in the military and defence sphere for the forthcoming years. To delineate precisely the scope of collaboration between Canada and Poland in the domain of security. (…) I believe that the plan for 2025-2026, which we will...

www.gov.pl

 

[Colin Parkinson]

While I’m no fan of KIA’s, if they built it in Canada, it would give a purpose built product - that isn't reliant on a commercial Ford chassis.

Planning a fleet around the Roshel design is beyond stupid.

You and I have disagreed on this point before, Canada needs to support local industry and Roshel builds vehicles that will replace a lot of the vehicle we had and need. Canada can't afford to buy or maintain a fleet of LAV's for the Reserves. Roshel offers something that can be easily maintained locally and not completely dependent on a borked DND supply/maintenance chain. Also with a steady yearly order, Roshel can afford to develop other models that are custom made using non-ITAR components and can adapt other vehicles to Canadian parts under licence.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You and I have disagreed on this point before, Canada needs to support local industry and Roshel builds vehicles that will replace a lot of the vehicle we had and need. Canada can't afford to buy or maintain a fleet of LAV's for the Reserves. Roshel offers something that can be easily maintained locally and not completely dependent on a borked DND supply/maintenance chain. Also with a steady yearly order, Roshel can afford to develop other models that are custom made using non-ITAR components and can adapt other vehicles to Canadian parts under licence.

So, what you're saying is, the CAF would go with something that was the exact opposite of that?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So, what you're saying is, the CAF would go with something that was the exact opposite of that?

Something that no one else buys, no parts are made in Canada and any parts as part of the contract are at 25% of what is needed. Also the company building them goes under and the IP and Licences are locked up in a legal dispute for 10 years.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Something that no one else buys, no parts are made in Canada and any parts as part of the contract are at 25% of what is needed. Also the company building them goes under and the IP and Licences are locked up in a legal dispute for 10 years.

Speak of the Devil!

 

[Czech_pivo]

Canada and Poland if they haven't already, are supposed to sign a defence agreement for 2025-2026. More info from the Polish MoD:

Poland and Canada will soon sign a cooperation agreement for 2025-2026 - Ministry of National Defence - Gov.pl website

- Our intention is to conclude a comprehensive plan of joint activities in the military and defence sphere for the forthcoming years. To delineate precisely the scope of collaboration between Canada and Poland in the domain of security. (…) I believe that the plan for 2025-2026, which we will...

www.gov.pl

Thanks!

I was also able to find out that both Finland, Norway and Estonia operate the K9 already, along with Poland. So if this is something that we purchased there already would be 4 other NATO countries operating this system. Turkey does as well but I've not included them in this list as CAF inter-operability with Turkish forces is not in the cards for the CAF.

 

[PuckChaser]

Speak Squeak of the Devil!

FTFY. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

 

[KevinB]

You and I have disagreed on this point before, Canada needs to support local industry and Roshel builds vehicles that will replace a lot of the vehicle we had and need.

Roshel doesn't build vehicles, they modify a Ford 550.
It isn't a viable design for the CA.

Canada can't afford to buy or maintain a fleet of LAV's for the Reserves.

I would suggest that Canada look at a JV with the SK's to build the K-21 in Canada. It would provide a tracked IFV that could be used for 1 CDN DIV, (or at least 1 Bde from it) which would allow the LAV to be retained for ARes usage (or at least a Bde worth).
What the CA, and Canadian public cannot afford is a shit design that serves no purpose other than making some folks falsely feel like the ARes is equipped.

Most Nations have a Reserve that is larger than their Regular Army - and equipped either similar to the Regular Army, or with cascaded equipment. Right now the ARes is entirely ineffective for Canada in the event of needing them beyond individual augmentees.
The Reserves are a cost effective method of having a larger Military - mainly as the Salaries are significantly lower due to the decreased "active" time. 39 Class A days and say 60 Class B days (thought not everyone would hit that) are going to be at least 1/3rd of the price of the Regular.
Salaries eat up the vast majority of your CAF Budget - and given the state of the world you need to consider that the Regular CA isn't big enough to take on the required tasks - and the ARes as currently equipped cannot do anything to help.

Roshel offers something that can be easily maintained locally and not completely dependent on a borked DND supply/maintenance chain. Also with a steady yearly order, Roshel can afford to develop other models that are custom made using non-ITAR components and can adapt other vehicles to Canadian parts under licence.

Or you know just find an actual vehicle manufacture to do just that...

 

[RangerRay]

More details can be found here:

Let's talk about the Koreans

David ******** was the first to report of the recent meeting in Ottawa last week...

noahscornerofrandomstuff.substack.com

Ooooh. Me likey!

 

[FJAG]

Canada can't afford to buy or maintain a fleet of LAV's for the Reserves.

IMHO, Canada can't afford NOT to buy and maintain a fleet of fighting vehicles that it expects the reserves to go to war with.

To say we can't afford proper equipment for the reserves misses the point of a reserve force. In a modern army there is an absolute need for reserve personnel and equipment. Personnel alone simply don't cut it. Personnel not trained on the equipment they will use doesn't cut it. A system that keeps both the regular and reserve forces undermanned, undertrained and underequipped in peace time and intends to cobble together a fighting task force for deployment at the end of the day won't cut it. It means either an inefficient force or time needed to train the augmentees/replacements. It's a force that will die on the battlefield and all the money spent on it up to that point will have been utterly wasted.

We need to know how we will fight and to what extent we are prepared to commit to that fight and then organize and equip and man the force to do that and to sustain that.

If our primary fighting force is LAV based, then there need to be reserve LAVs and reservists trained to use them. Personally, to me, the LAV should be a secondary force. The primary force should be heavier with its own trained an equipped reserve component.

What Canada cannot afford is the full-time personnel that it currently pays for.

The CF, and the army in particular, should have just enough full-timers to provide the quick reaction and highly skilled forces needed on very short notice for unplanned emergencies - special forces and, for the army, perhaps a few light battalions and their support elements.

To that should be added a core of full-timers who have enough mass to maintain expertise in all essential capabilities and can grow the leadership for a larger force.

And finally there should be enough full-timers to fill the training and sustainment functions needed.

The bulk of the force should be a well-trained, and fully-equipped reserve force which remains primarily on standby and mobilizes for specific missions and training and then returns to reserve status. That's where your true cost savings come in.

A full-time force that squabbles over preserving PYs while watching its scarce equipment rust out leaving much of themselves, not to mention the reservists underequipped or manning equipment not fit for purpose is simply a waste of money.

$0.02

 

[Furniture]

What Canada cannot afford is the full-time personnel that it currently pays for.

CAF pay and benefits make up half the budget because they can't be cut without public backlash. Cut the RegF, like in the 90s, and we will be back in the same situation again in 10 years. Maintenance budgets can be cut because they aren't obvious to the public, so as soon as they GoC feels they can scale things back, the budget apart from pay and benefits will end up cut again.

The solution to the CAF's woes is not cutting the RegF to inflate ResF PYs, but leave them with no kit/budget for training. The fix for the CAF is to get serious as a country about defence and grow our Res and Reg forces, and supply them with the appropriate kit.

 

[KevinB]

CAF pay and benefits make up half the budget because they can't be cut without public backlash. Cut the RegF, like in the 90s, and we will be back in the same situation again in 10 years. Maintenance budgets can be cut because they aren't obvious to the public, so as soon as they GoC feels they can scale things back, the budget apart from pay and benefits will end up cut again.

The solution to the CAF's woes is not cutting the RegF to inflate ResF PYs, but leave them with not kit/budget for training. The fit for the CAF is to get serious as a country about defence and grow our Res and Reg forces, and supply them with the appropriate kit.

The growth in the Regular Army however shouldn’t be skewed towards the Combat Arms

 

[GR66]

CAF pay and benefits make up half the budget because they can't be cut without public backlash. Cut the RegF, like in the 90s, and we will be back in the same situation again in 10 years. Maintenance budgets can be cut because they aren't obvious to the public, so as soon as they GoC feels they can scale things back, the budget apart from pay and benefits will end up cut again.

The solution to the CAF's woes is not cutting the RegF to inflate ResF PYs, but leave them with not kit/budget for training. The fit for the CAF is to get serious as a country about defence and grow our Res and Reg forces, and supply them with the appropriate kit.

Maybe the total CAF RegF numbers shouldn't be cut but a change in the way they are distributed is likely needed. RegF PY's should be focused on those that regularly deploy and those that support them - largely RCN and RCAF pers along with a core of the CA. Some of these PY's could come from a rationalization of HQ's, etc. and others can come from a shift of a portion of combat arms PY's from the RegF to the ResF.