Won't Stand on guard for thee - a man's opposition to the Canadian flag & anthem

[Canuck_25]

Well, here you are, the "lost childern."

This is a really disturbing case, it's sick.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/03/24/60II/main40269.shtml

 

[camochick]

Theres PMQs on native reserves?

First off, you choose to live in a PMQ so get over it, rent an apartement or a house, heck you just got a nice raise. No pity for me about the PMQ situation I grew up in a few.

If your friend is too ashamed/afraid/concerned to admit his herritage, as a native american, why should anyone else bother to concern themselves over it?

No my friend is not ashamed of who he is, he just hates when he tells people and they start making cracks about how he is on welfare and how he doesnt pay taxes (he does cause he has never lived on a reserve) and all that crap. Believe me it happens all the time.

So we should just tell the natives that the treaties are obsolete. Thats crap. They were here first(well that is subject to debate, but they were here before the europeans came charging through and decided they wanted this great land of ours) They deserve the right not to pay taxes, they deserve the right to a good life like the rest of us. Yes they should have a part in that, they need to take action for themselves, but the government and the ban councils need to be part of the solution too. Forcing them off reserves and forcing them to integrate into our society isnt going to do much for them.

 

[rage]

I am a soldier first and I thought ALL CF members knew this! I cannot believe the crap that is being posted regarding native people! I am First Nation and I am proud! But, more importantly, I am a soldier and the common colour is green. My Unit is awesome, we are truly a tight group of men and woman who see each other as family. Thank GOD I am not in a Unit with some of these posers who are posting this crap.

 

[putz]

i just want to make somethings clear.  As far as I am concerned noone that has posted here is being a poser.  The majority of people posting here are not just posting on a racist and biased attitude the majority of people that have posted here are basing THEIR PERSONAL THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS based on first hand accounts.  No one (except for the few jacka** that have posted) are attempting to start a flame war or bring out racism and prejudice.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

I am a soldier first and I thought ALL CF members knew this! I cannot believe the crap that is being posted regarding native people! I am First Nation and I am proud! But, more importantly, I am a soldier and the common colour is green. My Unit is awesome, we are truly a tight group of men and woman who see each other as family. Thank GOD I am not in a Unit with some of these posers who are posting this crap.

    Now thats the kind of Native that has been joining since Christ was a Corporal.  A few men and woman like these are worth the price of a few oddball whiners.  If we had the same proportion of motivated soldiers to protesting weirdos from the other races of Canada, our ranks would top 100,000.  As a good Canadian Scots whiteboy, I take a good long look at the racial makeup of our squatter/treehugger/eternal-protester-of-something before I point my finger at others races.  We are Canadian Soldiers, the last persecutable minority.  We come from a hundred backgrounds, as many faiths, and stand together in a unity that our civilian brethren seem not to be able to match.  If the civilian bozo wanted to offer disrespect to the flag to prove a point, well I seem to remember a Canadian premiere in Atlantic Canada doing the same; it did not reflect the attitude of his people either.  To be free, a country must permit all forms of peaceful political expression, and stupidity is the lifeblood of politics n'est pas?

 

[air533]

.

 

[Canuck_25]

    Now thats the kind of Native that has been joining since Christ was a Corporal.  A few men and woman like these are worth the price of a few oddball whiners.  If we had the same proportion of motivated soldiers to protesting weirdos from the other races of Canada, our ranks would top 100,000.  As a good Canadian Scots whiteboy, I take a good long look at the racial makeup of our squatter/treehugger/eternal-protester-of-something before I point my finger at others races.  We are Canadian Soldiers, the last persecutable minority.  We come from a hundred backgrounds, as many faiths, and stand together in a unity that our civilian brethren seem not to be able to match.  If the civilian bozo wanted to offer disrespect to the flag to prove a point, well I seem to remember a Canadian premiere in Atlantic Canada doing the same; it did not reflect the attitude of his people either.  To be free, a country must permit all forms of peaceful political expression, and stupidity is the lifeblood of politics n'est pas?

I recall when the newfoundlanders pulled down the flag from goverment buildings, many in the rest of Canada were angry about it, calling newfoundlanders "welfair recipients" and "lazy newfies." People start calling it racist simply because it involves one race. Let me tell you this, that is a line of crap. The goverment and the native people are making this a racial issue. The natives want to be defined a seperate nation within canada, made of a seperate race. That is horse shit. Anyone tried living on a reserve being non native, good luck. Last thing we need is people seperating themselves based on race and origen.

 

[Infanteer]

Canuck makes a good point - why should any Canadians be treated differently (whether good or bad) based on ethnicity or heritage?  Why shouldn't there be a "Department of Scandanavian-Teuton (with a bit of Scots) Affairs" for me?

 

[dutchie]

If treating someone poorly because of their race is wrong because it's unfair, than treating someone favourably because of their race is equally wrong. To me, that means that the favorable practices and attitudes given to certain groups (such as Natives) are just as wrong in principle to the unfavourable practices and attitudes towards them in years past.

 

[ZipperHead]

If treating someone poorly because of their race is wrong because it's unfair, than treating someone favourably because of their race is equally wrong. To me, that means that the favorable practices and attitudes given to certain groups (such as Natives) are just as wrong in principle  to the unfavourable practices and attitudes towards them in years past.

I agree with this. This is what is more divisive than anything else. This is what causes the "us vs them" attitude. Face it, there are a lot of non-native people that are hard done by, but they are provided for by our socialist society. I am not saying that in a negative way (socialist society): as a society we should look out for those that are less fortunate, but to group people and say "let's give group A money just because" doesn't accomplish anything, other than the undesired effect of having to eventually wean them off the public teat.

Yes, "we" took the land from "them" (depending on your definition of "took"). But, to be honest, I wasn't part of "we". I wasn't born yet. And for that matter, I am only second generation Canadian (my family is from Finland), so none of my forefathers were involved with the stealing, purchasing, leasing, whatever, or the land that is Canada. So, where do I fall into this? Should I feel "white mans guilt"?

I don't know enough about the treaties and land claims to form an educated opinion on whether they are right or wrong, but I can only try to filter what comes through on the media. I would hope that this can be solved within my lifetime, or at least my children's lifetime, so that there can be some healing in the rift that has grown over the centuries between "us" and "them". But, as a pessimist, or realist, I know that human greed (from all parties concerned) will probably never allow this.

air533 mentioned that Natives are disadvantaged as a people group socially and economically. That is somewhat true, but if they are given, and accept monies from the people of Canada, how they use that money is up to them. If someone gives me ~$4500 a month, and I piss it away, that's my problem. If I spend the money wisely, on housing, food, pay my debts, invest for my future, put money aside for my children, well done me, right?!!? Well, guess what I do? Am I disadvantaged? No. I provide a service to my country, and I am compensated for it. Natives were given compensation (Treaties) and yes, it is wrong if they are not honoured, but what of any monies, and beneifts, they receive, or received in the past? I suppose they could pay all the money (and benefits) back, with interest, in return for the rights that they want. Can't see them wanting to do that......

There has to be a point where we move on, and not look backward, but look forward. Imagine if every time that the CF got a payraise, they had to go back and give every soldiers widow and descendants the equivalent of what that soldier would make in today's money for their service way back when. Canada would be bankrupt. Everything has to end (the wrongs of the past) and we have to start again somewhere.

Al

 

[Guest]

Traditions include respect for the flag
Re: School trustee takes issue with the flag (SP March 12), I take issue with Vernon Linklater's refusal to stand during the playing of our country's anthem. Linklater does not represent the Thunderchild First Nation and it's traditions. As a member of the Thunderchild First Nations original family, we are taught to have respect for cultures and traditions of those around us. Our elders have always taught us that we are to be full of love and to seek the role of peacemaker and ambassador for all of our people. If a non-Native person were to walk into one of our traditional ceremonies and disrespect it, I am sure a cry of racism would be flying out of Linklater's mouth, so why then would he disrespect other traditions? More specifically, why disrespect those traditionals of the very country that we live in? If you were to attend a powwow you would observe the flags of all nations present are carried and shown, including that of our great country. So I plead to all those who read the story, please do not allow people like Linklater to further drive a wedge between our people, because the majority of us respect the rights and traditions of others, as was taught to us.
- Jesse Thunderchild
Saskatoon

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Traditions include respect for the flag
Re: School trustee takes issue with the flag (SP March 12), I take issue with Vernon Linklater's refusal to stand during the playing of our country's anthem. Linklater does not represent the Thunderchild First Nation and it's traditions. As a member of the Thunderchild First Nations original family, we are taught to have respect for cultures and traditions of those around us. Our elders have always taught us that we are to be full of love and to seek the role of peacemaker and ambassador for all of our people. If a non-Native person were to walk into one of our traditional ceremonies and disrespect it, I am sure a cry of racism would be flying out of Linklater's mouth, so why then would he disrespect other traditions? More specifically, why disrespect those traditionals of the very country that we live in? If you were to attend a powwow you would observe the flags of all nations present are carried and shown, including that of our great country. So I plead to all those who read the story, please do not allow people like Linklater to further drive a wedge between our people, because the majority of us respect the rights and traditions of others, as was taught to us.
- Jesse Thunderchild
Saskatoon

Jesse,
    Do not worry.  We do not take the actions of Linklater to be indicitive of the Thunderchild first nation.  Most of us have served along side many first nations people, (and some respondants are first nations soldiers), and have learned to judge a people by their deeds, and the first nations of Canada have shed more than enough blood along side of us to earn our respect.  As far as keeping faith with your traditions, I am an Asatru, a Norse Pagan, and have kept my faith through all the years of my service.  At no time did I show disrespect for the Christian trappings of many of the ceremonies that we were involved in; as you say, respect the rights and traditions of others.  I have the greatest respect for the first nations people who work to keep their cultural traditions alive, these are the people fighting for the first nations, not the shouting protesters.  For all the harm Linklater has done, the visability of his protest is nothing compared to the visability of the ranks of first nations people whose who walk beneath their tribal banners and the maple leaf on Remembrance Day, just as our other veterans march beneath their service banners and the leaf.  It is by them that we judge you.

 

[Zipper]

Well said...

Should Natives consider themselves as a separate "nation" within Canada, or should that very notion be scrapped and they become full Canadian's with all that comes with it?

As you said mainer, you have separate belief's and ways of thinking then what is traditionally thought of as Canadian. But you ARE Canadian. So is that 3rd generation Italian in Toronto, and that 6th generation Chinese in Vancouver. Do they both identify themselves with their past culture?

Yes. They learn their old native language, speak it with family and friends, and even celebrate their holiday's in that fashion. They may even go to schools specific to their old cultures.

But they are Canadian.

So why does this not seem to transfer? Because they do not want it too? Or because we do not want it too?

 

[Jarnhamar]

why should any Canadians be treated differently (whether good or bad) based on ethnicity or heritage?

EDIT:
I don't think there is much more that needs to be said. As long as you give group B special treatment over group A, your causing problems no matter how good your intentions are ie women in the combat arms (infantry). The biggest amount of complains i've read both here ad nasium and in other forums is that group F is treated differently than group M.

 

[arminfo]

so  bomber is saying if someone comes and  take his kids and beats them into submission force them to some weird forign culture wash out their mouths with soap for speaking their own language it  would  be  fine  well perhaps  thats  fine for his kids  but  natives of  north america dont understand the concept of subsevientism they dont  give in so    what your are trying  to beat out of our babys is the ability to be a real person  but i understand your lack of ability to understand

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and this has happened to you personally? Grow up and add something  to this conversation about todays problems, not stuff you read in a book from years past.

 

[George Wallace]

so bomber is saying if someone comes and take his kids and beats them into submission force them to some weird forign culture wash out their mouths with soap for speaking their own language it would be fine well perhaps thats fine for his kids but natives of north america dont understand the concept of subsevientism they dont give in so what your are trying to beat out of our babys is the ability to be a real person but i understand your lack of ability to understand

My lack of ability to understand is the result of our poor Education System to properly educate people in the use of correct Spelling and Grammar.   Four lines of typed words with not Capitalization, no Punctuation, no Grammar, Broken and Fragmented words and statements.   How do you communicate?   I don't understand what you are trying to say.   Are you Trolling?   This has been a rather civil discussion of the attitudes of a person from a Reserve who happens to have "European Blood".   Now you have murkied the waters with disjointed crap that is not at all relevant to this discussion.  ???

 

[Love793]

As much as I disagree with this gentlemans stance, we must remember that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (that ironically we defend), gives him the rights to his beliefs and actions.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

The only thing standing between the natives being treated like everybody else, and the status quo are the treaties.  Many bands have already settled their land claims, accepting modern accords to replace the treaties signed by HMG, in some cases before the BNA act made a Canada.  They remain special in the eyes of the law until the last landclaim is settled, and the last treaty replaced with modern accords drafted along current constitutional models.  The natives are not special because they want to be, they are special because our gov't made them that way by drafting the treaties in the first place.  Had Canada (British Empire at the time) offered the first nations people full and equal citizenship way back then, then we would not be having this discussion.  The gov't of the day chose to make them a special status that denied them many of the rights and responsibilities of real citizens, and failed to put an expiration date on them, too damn bad.  If we made a treaty, then we are bound by it until both sides agree to something else.  I disagree with it.  We do live in a nation of laws, and if our gov't makes some stupid, shortsighted ones (ie the treaties) then we have to grin and bear it.  I look forward to the day, when all Canadians will be equal before and under the law.  I also look forward to winning the lottery, the former is more likely, but not by a large margin.

 

[Zipper]

If we made a treaty, then we are bound by it until both sides agree to something else.

Actually governments break treaties all the time. They are only pieces of paper after all. They can break this one too if they had the gumption.

However I do agree with you on all other points. I just have some small hope that it may be in my life time.

Either one.;D