Won't Stand on guard for thee - a man's opposition to the Canadian flag & anthem

[Bomber]

Then, we was Europeans, colonial governments, church, etc
Now, we is Canadians, even first generation immigrants, all Canadians

This isn't a Native problem, or a white people problem, or a Sri Lankan problem.  It is a Canadian problem.  We are all responsible to get it fixed.  No one group can fix it, and only everyone together can solve it.  When people first come here form their own land and become first Generation Canadians, they do indeed get to inherit the good and the bad that is going on.  It would be like retirees not paying the same taxes, cause they aren't going to school, or young workers not paying for health care cause they are as sick as the retirees.  Canada has a problem, so I figure that all Canadians have this problem.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and you think by flaming whatever you consider "WE" is helping?
I'll quote you again, tell me you don't see something wrong with this statement then,

I don't think there is a problem with the "they were here first" argument. Look at it more like, "They were here first, we made deals for land, then changed our minds, took more and abused the heck out of them,

...I can assure you that I did no such thing.......

 

[Bomber]

If there is a more simplified version that someone can use to explain this, please let me see it, I am not trying to flame anyone, just looking for information.l

I was trying to simplify a complicated problem, in my head I was talking like a colonial government administrator.  It would sound more like "They were here first, we(the government of the time, elected by the people of the time) made deals for land, then changed our(the successive governments, voted in by the next generations) minds, took more and abused(http://www.irsr-rqpi.gc.ca/) the heck out of them."  I don't go out of my way to create conflict or "flame" anyone.  I am trying to get other people to look at a problem in a more objective manner, and expose people to a different opinion.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
[the government of the time, elected by the people of the time) made deals for land, then changed our(the successive governments, voted in by the next generations)

...now that I can live with.  I just take great offense to how the word "we" and words like it are used to describe what happened back then. I find no difference in that stero-type or the "lazy/ drunken Indian stero-type"
Neither is acceptable.

 

[Island Ryhno]

I dunno, this whole, dig a deep hole and fill it with money bit gets rather annoying. Are Natives not grown ups like the rest of us? I have financial responsibilities, if I decide to drink or smoke or gamble or f*ck my money away then I have to face the consequences, do Natives? I'm so far in debt over education that I nearly worked myself silly (full time student, full time job, part time job) just to get by and make a better life for myself. I didn't have a priveleged childhood, my father never made more than $30,000 a year and my mother about half that and they raised 4 boys, we had food, barely, the bills were paid, barely, and neither my father or my mother were drunks or gamblers or such. The point I'm making is that lots of people get a shitty hand to start with, I could have called it quits a long time ago because of my life. To be quite honest with you it's difficult to watch people wallow in self pity because of what's been done to them. Given the opportunities that Natives have every day, a crack at whatever in the world they want, I'd be a pretty well off guy right now. This reserve structure is a long past due project that needs the plug pulled, hey lots of people have fended off poverty to become something, on their own without government giving them houses and money and everything else, why can't Natives fend for themselves?

 

[Gramps]

Island Ryhno. Statements like the ones you had just made are the type of statements that I was referring to in some of my earlier posts. Not grown ups?? That is just insulting. " a crack at whatever in the world they want" sure as long as its not in your back yard right? So you go to school and have two jobs. Who cares, join the club so did I and the rest of my family as well as most of my friends. Do you know any Native People? Lets not forget what happened to the Beothuk in Newfoundland.

 

[Island Ryhno]

So what your saying gramps is that they shouldn't take responsibility for themselves, yeah I work, yeah so do you and everyone else you know apparantely.Tell me what I have in my backyard that Natives cannot have. The fact of the matter is, they've been given tons and tons of money and it's been mismanaged for years, the whole situation is not working, as a matter of fact it seems to be getting worse.  There never seems to be any responsbility taken, it's always the fault of the government or white people from 200 years ago. Yes I do know native people and your a**hole remark about Beothuk in Newfoundland didn't go unnoticed either but I will not get into a flaming match with you. I suppose it's my fault about the Beothuk.

 

[camochick]

   Wow alot happens when you go to bed. First of all Bomber, you climbed a very high big high horse and you really need to come down. The guy who said his uncle moved to the reserve just to get a house, well it is his uncle, so wouldnt he know. I live in Edmonton, I don't see very many white bums. It's sad, but it's a fact. I in no way judge all natives by the ones I see on the street. You're generalizing alot of people and doing the same thing you claim we do to the natives.
   I guess I see now how political correctness is sucking away the heart and soul of the world. Island Ryhno is right. Lot's of people get a shitty break in life, and lots of people manage just fine. I know the native issues run deep and there is alot more to it, but he is right in the fact that it isnt just the responsibility of the government to fix the problems. Gramps, calling someone a rascist is harsh.
  I think that it's sad that everyone can't just get along. In an ideal world we would all be like the freakin carebears, but sadly that will probably never happen. I however, refuse to feel the "great white guilt". BY that I mean, I'm tired of every problem in the world being blamed on the white peoples so I refuse to feel guilt for crimes I didnt commit. Sure, we need to fix the problems of society, but stop making me feel bad for stuff I didnt do.

 

[Gramps]

You are right that was an a**hole remark and maybe was a bit inappropriate. I'm not saying that Natives shouldn't be responsible for themselves. As far as I am concerned everyone should be. I would just like people to try to look at things from someone else's point of view. If we all did this there would be a lot less hostility in this country when it comes to such issues. I will agree with you on the intent of my last remark but I wont apologise for making it. Cheers

 

[Canuck_25]

Canuck_25,
what happened to your brother is regrettable, but remember, his not being able to buy (or build) a house, is government policy not the people's. As for racist attitudes, unfortunate, but a fact of life in this country. In my community (my wife's, technically speaking), I would say that over half of the spouses of those between 20-40 are non-native. Just as with any community in this country, attitudes differ.A question for an answer: why would native people want to "integrate"? Canada does not want us, never has. Look through what I've said before about the treatment dished out and ask the question again. As for a house etc. there is nothing stopping us, or any other Canadian for that matter...other than a large portion of society. Up until the late 60's, a registered Indian could not own property, without giving up your status. An Indian could not become a doctor, or lawyer, or engineer, or police officer, or military officer without giving up status. I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.Because this is supposed to be a fair and democratic society.

Why is it such a problem to "give up your status"? I see the whole status issue as a crutch the native people lean on. Im sorry, but we cant all reflect on our heritage everyday. This country grants everyone to practice what ever they believe in, but in reality, it dosnt really work that way. Giving up your status is not giving up your heritage. I see sikhs wearing turbans, and they dont have status cards. You can express your heritage at your OWN time. Form groups or clubs, have meetings, or hell, have specail art in your home. People express their heritage everyday, and it dosnt prevent them from functioning in society.

 

[onewingwonder]

WEll, Bloody Heck! I have just spent the better part of an hour writing up possibly the best thing I've ever written on the subject, and the bloody thing timed out on me! Lost in Cyberspace.

However, seeing as numerous posts have popped up since I started to reply, it may be for the better. Still, Bloody Heck.

I will comment anew, but leaving out most everything, because certain points were cleared up by others, and harmony agin reigns in the Kingdom. I understood that Bomber was using the Royal "we", and so does Bruce now. Well done gents.

My final paragraph may very well answer the following from Bomber, or at least I hope it can:

If there is a more simplified version that someone can use to explain this, please let me see it, I am not trying to flame anyone, just looking for information.l

During and following WW1 and 2, and other conflicts certain soldiers were termed as cowards, or shell-shocked, or they had lack-of-moral-fibre. We now call this PTSD. Other occupations carry those same risks: doctors, EMS, police and even social workers are all at risk. If not treated, the individual and EVERYONE around them suffers. There are many then, and unfortunately many now, who simply say SUCK IT UP. While there are those whose mentalities can do this, there are just as many who cannot. The horrors seen, and acted out, in the name of civilization, peace, sovereignty etc etc are not the norm for the human psyche. It is not normal to kill another human being; It is not normal to have to treat a 2 year-old sexual abuse victim; it is not normal to beat someone for speaking a language other than your own. The human mind reacts, sometimes well, sometimes not.

So, what we have here is a situation of not an individual with PTSD, nor a small group of people. What we are talking about is an entire race (for the lack of a more appropriate term), bound together by certain cultural values, or language, or appearance who are suffereing from INSTitUTIONAL PTSD brought on by generations of abuse of virtually every variety.

I'll put this up now, so as not to risk losing this small part of the original again.

 

[Infanteer]

I tried to go through this, but I don't have the energy.  Instead of bickering back and forth (some arguements good, some very poor), why don't we put forward ideas on a solution and see whether people from different walks of life can agree upon them.

 

[larry Strong]

I hate it when people do that :rage:   This guy wants it both ways.   He'll collect all the benefits citizenship provides and then piss and moan about how his heritage is not respected and how he is a citizen of another nation.  

Geez what other part of our society do we see using this argument. ;D

As I am not a computer God and don't know how to place multiple quotes I will just try and mention some other statements I have noticed.

One member said to just divide the reservation lands up and give it to the members and they can use it as collateral, most resreservations are either out of the way, (thus property values probably would not buy the powder to blow them up) or the land is of such poor quality or full of "skeg" or swamps, that the previous applies to this also.

The "racist" thing,  well every one that can, uses that card to their favor, because we have turned in to such a "fuzzy bunny slippers (man I love that one )" society, that the powers that be won't challenge what ever brought it on for fear of offending or being called "R". We have actually turned into a society of spineless wonders.

What's going to solve this issue...damed if I know, I imagine this thread will be going on long after I am dead. I think what might work is give each native X# of dollars a year, for treaty rights and cut them loose, this would save the country a ton of money as most of Indian Affairs would no longer be needed, and in my view thats were a sizable portion of the billions go. The prosperous reservations could split there land amoamongste members that want to farm or what ever it is that makes that reservation prosperous.

I realize this is pretty simplistic but it is just my .2 cents worth. It's been an interesting read.

 

[onewingwonder]

Canuck_25,

Why is it such a problem to "give up your status"? I see the whole status issue as a crutch the native people lean on. Im sorry, but we cant all reflect on our heritage everyday. This country grants everyone to practice what ever they believe in, but in reality, it dosnt really work that way. Giving up your status is not giving up your heritage. I see sikhs wearing turbans, and they dont have status cards. You can express your heritage at your OWN time. Form groups or clubs, have meetings, or heck, have specail art in your home. People express their heritage everyday, and it dosnt prevent them from functioning in society.

Personally, for me, it isn't a problem because it was taken away by the government when my GGreatgrandfather was a child. The government wanted the prime real estate belonging "in perpetuity" in SW Ontario. So, they took it. Crutch is not the word I would choose, obviously, but I understand your meaning. That bloody little card, to many Indians, has become a vital link to who they are. Again, this was a Government decision and not that of the people themselves. Not having that card, in many cases, means not having your heritage, regardless of close family ties. Why? Because that is the way the government wants it. With all aboriginal people fighting amongst each other, the government doesn't have to deal with "the problem", they need merely say that obviously as the aboriginals can't decide, we will do it for them. Now, I'm 41, I have two living parents and have no desire to have anyone act in such a paternalistic fashion towards me, my wife or children.

As for the second to last of your sentences, I'm going to assume that it wasn't truly mean to sound so condescending as it, in fact, does. An Indian Club!? Special Art in my home!? You really must be joking...aren't you?

Edited to comment on posts during writing. Apparently, I'm just not fast enough.

Larry,

the problems associated with your solution are, indeed, simplistic and would cause more harm than good. It is the exact solution that the government has tried to force on people over many generations. I'll think over a better reply later, so as not to leave it hanging.

BTW the fluffy-bunny-slippers comes from that movie in the late 80's (can't for the life of me think of the name. Had Charlie Sheen and was a spoof of Dances with Wolves, Top Gun, Police Squad etc. His "Indian name" was Fluffy Bunny Slippers. But it really does fit, as pointed out, what has become a spineless society.

Infanteer,
It seems the bickering has subsided to a great degree (the yellow card hangs over all, not least yours truly) and now constructive ideas have and can flow.

 

[larry Strong]

Canuck_25,
That bloody little card, to many Indians, has become a vital link to who they are. Again, this was a Government decision and not that of the people themselves. Not having that card, in many cases, means not having your heritage, regardless of close family ties.

Why?

 

[Bomber]

camochick, I don't get this big horse thing, I am saying that this guy offering an example of his uncle moving back to a reservation for a free house is not a decent argument.  I knew of a guy from highschool that was on welfare and sold drugs because he didn't like working.  This is nothing more than one example.  And doesn;t indicate all the people in a group.  Citing a single example of something is fine, but it is only one example.  You may see very few white bums in Edmonton, but that is all I see here.  Not a generalization, but from what I can see on the Streets of Ottawa, the majority of people are men and women, between 15 and 35, white, and beggin for money.  I am not trying to find fault to lay blame, cause it is like trying to agree with that book "Who killed Canada's Military" All Canadians aren't at fault, but it is Canada's problem.

 

[onewingwonder]

Larry,

Why?

Many, many reasons. Most of which, you guessed it, have to do with the Indian Act. There are thousands who should have the card who don't, and thousands who do have the card and shouldn't. The governments, in their constant re-defining of who an "Indian" is, have kept aboriginal people fighting since the first Indian Act was written up. It is a control mechanism, plain and simple, used by both government and certain Indian "leaders". Look back to my post re. PTSD.

 

[larry Strong]

Thanks
My granddaughter is part Cree. To her father his "blood", is only important in that he could work in the States, and what he can get for free from the feds. I might be sticking my nose where I should not, but to me family and heritage is extremely important, and I plan on making sure she knows her heritage if possible.
And I am a mutt Part Belgian, part Newfie born in Italy, what a mess :, But 100% Canadian

 

[muskrat89]

Onewing - thanks for your replies. They have certainly made me re-evaluate my thinking, and have also shed  light on some misconceptions.

Some points, and questions, if I may....


Assigning blame - I understand your bitterness. Maybe not in the same visceral way that you do, but I understand it. Everyone acknowledges a problem it seems. Do you think assigning blame at this point helps to find a "cure", or does it simply help reinforce your points in defining "the problem"?  Personally, in any argument like this, I don't know what we are supposed to do, regarding the "sins of our fathers". I think thats what Bruce and some others were alluding to. That train of thought can go on, in pepretuity. Before us, this tribe did that to another tribe, the French did this to the Scots, the Normans did this to the Gauls, the Franks did this to the Celts, the Mongolians did this to the whomever. Can't all of us trace our lineage back to a point where our people were ravaged and oppressed by another? I guess, I enjoyed reading your posts on an illustrative and educational level, but if these arguments are made for another purpose.... "you owe us"...  like I said - I think we can all make that argument, if we go back far enough.

Question (not rhetorical, I really don't understand this part) - I grew up in a small town, next to a Maliseet Reserve (reservation?). The most affluent/happy/well to do (my perception) were band leaders, and those who had moved off of the Reserve. Most of the folks who moved off were very successful business people, Doctors, teachers, etc., in our Community. When people move away like that, do they give up their status, or card, or whatever the term is? I guess I'm wondering what was involved, when people moved off, like that.

That does lead to a rhetorical question - If people can choose to move off (and hopefully be successful), why don't more folks just make that choice? Do the other Tribe Members feel like the ones that move off are traitors (not the best word, perhaps)? I guess - is there a stigma attached to those people, because they are choosing to be assimilated, rather than stick with their culture? I know I'm not wording that the best, but hopefully you understand my gist, and can explain more the intricacies associated with moving away from the Res.

Thanks again for your posts. I've enjoyed them.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Here are some sources that were requested........

Aboriginal teen pregnancy rate higher than non-aboriginal teens (slightly date)

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/dca-dea/publications/reduce_teen_pregnancy_section_1_e.html#some


In Saskatchewan, Aboriginal adults are incarcerated at 35 times the rate of non-aboriginals, where they make up 77% of the total prisoner population
http://www.prisonjustice.ca/politics/facts_stats.html


Call me what you want, insult my intelligence, I didn't join the Navy because I was number 1 of my graduating class.  I do know that I can sit here all day and pull up study after study backing me up.  There is nothing racist about studies, they are a good indication of a problem, and we should work towards solving it.  Do I think that taking a certain portion of the population and isolating them from everyone else is going to solve that problem?  No.   I don't know if isolating is the word to use, but that's how I see it from the outside.  I have never lived on a reserve, but I have lived in communities that have large native populations.  In Duncan (again from the outside looking in) I see a failure in community leaders, and as a result it seems that there is a certain portion of the cowichan tribe population that is reaping all the benefits, and an even larger portion of the population suffering from poverty, drug abuse, alcholoism, teen pregnancy, domestic abuse.   Sure all of those problems are a factor for Non-aboriginals, so we have to find a long term solution that works for everybody.  

You know there was a quote in our local paper last year which bothered me, I forget the actual numbers from the article but I will sum it up for you.  They high school mentioned how many students graduated, then it went on to mention the number of natives in the graduating class, singling out the natives. example "There were 234 students in the graduating class, 23 of which were ______".  As a non-native I found this disturbing, because how is someone supposed to be a part of something if they are always being singled out.  Question for anyone on here, in situations like that how does that make you feel?

The Cowichan tribes are very wealthy, and since I have lived in Duncan they have started to funnel some of that money into sports programsand it is starting to show, as the Cowichan Eagles (representing Canada) just won International Indoor Soccer Tournament championship in Belgium, they won all of their games and beat England for the championship  
The Cowichan tribes also put together a bid and won the right to host the North American Indigenous Games in 2008 in Duncan.  Do you think I am going to be there cheering our boys on?  You bet your ass I am.


I hope my grammer and spelling don't offend anyone else on here, btw it's a loonie not a twoonie...............