Won't Stand on guard for thee - a man's opposition to the Canadian flag & anthem

[Infanteer]

Keep the "racist" accusations and ranting off this thread - let's try and keep it constuctive.

If it turns into a bunfight, I'll just lock it.

 

[onewingwonder]

Camochick,

actually, if you re-read my posts (I know, I know, they are somewhat lengthy) I have never said the following:

the aboriginal population has nothing to do with their current situation

or

the white man keeping you down

On the contrary, I have said that we are all responsible for the situation that currently exists. As for the second statement, I believe I made myself very clear on that issue. Hi Mom.

I get harrassed by non-native panhandlers every time I'm in town, but I don't paint all non-natives with the same brush.

My question must be: why is it that people seem to think that a problem of this magnitude can be cured overnight?? The current system, in one similar machination or another, has been in place for 400 years. Yet society seems to think the problem can be solved over afternoon tea. Again, I will support Brad's statement that one, or even two generations (God forbid even more)will be required to hopefully ameliorate the situation.

Oh, Oh. Seems I've been given the yellow card on my very first day. Seen.

 

[Infanteer]

Oh, Oh. Seems I've been given the yellow card on my very first day. Seen.

I wasn't referring to anyone in specific (so no, you don't get your yellow card yet  ) - the general tone of the thread seems to be taking a rather nasty edge as people get (justifiably) worked up.

Just trying to keep things civil.

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[Canuck_25]

 Well, ive read a bit of this post, and ill post my impute again.

Fact -- Canadians of native heritage have better opportunites to gain goverment jobs based on their race. Proof- Look at a CF recruiting form.

Fiction -- natives are lazy. Well, i know a few hard working Canadians who are of Native heritage. All of them live off reserve.

Fact -- Native Canadians can enter post secondary institutions with lower grades. It's true, even a court battle has been fought over it, and the non native lost.

Fiction -- Calling someone racist because they disagree with a system that is based on race, **** off.


 I hate the way people throw in the racist card when someone has something to whine about. Think of a better strategy buddy.

Well, lets look at other countries. Australia has a similar issue, as does New Zealand. Both deal with it in different ways. Both countries attempts are unsuccessful and conflict between non natives and natives errupt frequently. Australia and New Zealand are using the same strategy as Canada, seperate the two groups based on heritage and what should you expect?  

It's odd how newly arrived immigrants can prosper so easily, and non natives have such a difficult time establishing themselves in the REAL capitalist world. The oppinon from some Natives i recieve is that they desire to live like their ancestors. How unrealistic is that? In today's modern world, countries across the world are becoming closer togeather, multiculturalism is becoming vibrant, and people across the globe are becoming ever more similar. Now when i hear "I would desire to live like my ancestors" what a insane comment. That is suggesting that you live in a small commune, wearing cedar clothing, spearing fish, and living in a house shared by everyone in your community. Im sorry to say, but that is something so unrealistic that it's a fantasy. Reminds me of the guys who dress up as wizards and pretend they have magical powers. If you want to live like your ancestors, use all that goverment money to set up "native survivor."

Im sorry, but the way your ancestors lived 1000 years ago is not modern. If i said that, I would be packing my bags to england and become a serf!

To some all this up, I suggest one thing, abolish reserves. I dont care if it's a gradual move, or a immediate one, just do it. It's racist to seperate a group f people based on race, it is racist to give benifits to a certain group, it is racist to favour a particular group based on race. If anything, the goverment and the native people are racist.

Now ill be expecting some " You stole our land" and such. Well, my ancestors (black Irish) were forced from Ireland by English landlords. Should I go claim the land that is entiltled to my family?  If the Native people are going to hold a grudge over 100 years of history, then they should suck it up and get on with their lives. The Japanese Canadians did when they were removed to the interior during WW2, they had their possesions sold, and basically had to start over after the war.  Im sure history has plently of examples of this.

 

[onewingwonder]

I wasn't referring to anyone in specific (so no, you don't get your yellow card yet   ) - the general tone of the thread seems to be taking a rather nasty edge as people get (justifiably) worked up.

Just trying to keep things civil.

Cheers,
Infanteer

Infanteer,
actually, if you knew me you would know that considering the subject matter, I was being civil. :warstory: However, I must say that I do have a problem with individuals of any ilk who have sworn an oath, under the Constitution, and then condemn parts of said Constitution that do not suit their fancy. In this respect, I see no differance between them and the yoof protesters who burn the Canadian flag.

I will make this pledge, from this point on, to remain the utmost of gentlemen. Honest Injun.(I'm just asking for it, aren't I?)

Unfortunately, Canuck_25s post went through while I was typing, so will amend this post. I fear however, that lock-down is imminent.

Canuck,

Fact -- Canadians of native heritage have better opportunites to gain goverment jobs based on their race. Proof- Look at a CF recruiting form.

True, as do many other minorities. Has it gone too far. Maybe. Again, as mentioned, I'm no fan of the fluffy-bunny-slippers society we currently live in.

Well, i know a few hard working Canadians who are of Native heritage. All of them live off reserve

Won't even touch this one.

Native Canadians can enter post secondary institutions with lower grades. It's true, even a court battle has been fought over it, and the non native lost.

Not familiar with the case, but I can add, that this is NOT an across the board policy of Universities. If a school chooses to do so, they can fill their boots.

Calling someone racist because they disagree with a system that is based on race, **** off.

I also disagree with the system, which I've stated. But the comments were not geared at the system, but at a group of people.

With regards to individuals wishing to live in the past, well that is unrealistic. As you've stated yourself, this is not limited to aboriginal peoples, so your point is really moot, wouldn't you say? However, the term insane would seem somewhat inappropriate and harsh. If people see no future, they feel the answers may be in the past. And believe me, many aboriginal youth feel they have no future. Do I agree with them. Absolutely not,but that is what institutionalization does.

If you can show me any place where aboriginal people really had any choice in being put on reserves, I'd love to know about it. Fact is, anyone who refused immediately had their heritage stripped from them by the Government. Reserves, dear sir, were not our idea.

If anything, the goverment and the native people are racist.

While I concur, somewhat, with the first, I would like clarification as to how you feel reserves make native people racist. Honest question, not baiting you. Simple fact is, there are as many racist native people as there are racists of other skin-tones. However, rules which can be construed as being racist on-reserve, are government rules enacted by various Canadian governments.

Stole my land? Nope. My ancestors had their asses roundly whipped by the Mohawk and Seneca. They msitakenly supported the French, when the Dutch and English were clearly the power brokers. Live and learn, eh? However, having been deeded land, in perpetuity they found their agents, at government request, selling off these same lands illegally. That is the system which still remains.

Well, my ancestors (black Irish) were forced from Ireland by English landlords. Should I go claim the land that is entiltled to my family?

Had it not been by force, but by way of legally binding contracts (Treaties), then absolutely. To do anything less would be considered criminal by your descendants. Unfortunately, the Irish were not given that option, nor were the Scots.

hold a grudge over 100 years of history,

What you are not grasping, is that we are not just talking of 100, 200, 400 years of history. We are talking about yesterday, and last week, and 5 years ago. This is not ancient stuff, but current events.

What I can say in regards to the whole issue of racism in this country(or in the UK), is that I was never, ever, faced with the issue from other members whilst in uniform. Never. As one young guy said in a previous post (Native kid, I believe): we are all green (or bleed green. Sorry, don't want to lose this to check.) In my case, light blue. The uiniform is the big equalizer. At least, it is meant to be.

Infanteer, please keep this going. I believe that it is an eye-opener for all, including myself. No pain, no gain.

 

[Canuck_25]

If you can show me any place where aboriginal people really had any choice in being put on reserves, I'd love to know about it. Fact is, anyone who refused immediately had their heritage stripped from them by the Government. Reserves, dear sir, were not our idea. While I concur, somewhat, with the first, I would like clarification as to how you feel reserves make native people racist. Honest question, not baiting you. Simple fact is, there are as many racist native people as there are racists of other skin-tones. However, rules which can be construed as being racist on-reserve, are government rules enacted by various Canadian governments.

Well, my step brother (non native) worked on a reserve. Now, this guy was a city kid, open to all diversity. He was very open minded. He went for a job that was offered by a native band to work on a reserve. At first, he enjoyed his job, and began to look at a future in the community. He looked into buying a home and soon discouvered that he couldnt, because he was non native. Other events in the community (related to race) had him leave.

Stole my land? Nope. My ancestors had their asses roundly whipped by the Mohawk and Seneca. They msitakenly supported the French, when the Dutch and English were clearly the power brokers. Live and learn, eh? However, having been deeded land, in perpetuity they found their agents, at government request, selling off these same lands illegally. That is the system which still remains. Had it not been by force, but by way of legally binding contracts (Treaties), then absolutely. To do anything less would be considered criminal by your descendants. Unfortunately, the Irish were not given that option, nor were the Scots. What you are not grasping, is that we are not just talking of 100, 200, 400 years of history. We are talking about yesterday, and last week, and 5 years ago. This is not ancient stuff, but current events.

Funny how events in northern Ireland today are connected with the land grabs in which i spoke.

What I can say in regards to the whole issue of racism in this country(or in the UK), is that I was never, ever, faced with the issue from other members whilst in uniform. Never. As one young guy said in a previous post (Native kid, I believe): we are all green (or bleed green. Sorry, don't want to lose this to check.) In my case, light blue. The uiniform is the big equalizer. At least, it is meant to be.

Too bad Canadian soceity can't be the same. As for skin colour, it dosn't matter to me. It's like red hair, small feet, or whatever. It's the fact that the native people have severe trouble intergrating into Canadian society, and that some dont even want to! What is stopping a native person from buying a house, renting a appartment, or getting a job? Nothing really. I know those of Native heritage who own a appartment, live in a house and have a job. Why not force the others to do the same, instead of dumping more money into those inefficent shitholes to improve their standard of living.

 

[Gramps]

I am just curious as to why so many people believe that people of other cultures (not just Native) have to assimilate to so called "Canadian" culture. I believe that Canada is a truly Multicultural country and not a giant melting pot like so many other "Western Nations". To me that is one of the many things that makes our country great. It would be so boring if everyone were the same.

 

[BDG.CalgHighrs]

I am just curious as to why so many people believe that people of other cultures (not just Native) have to assimilate to so called "Canadian" culture. I believe that Canada is a truly Multicultural country and not a giant melting pot like so many other "Western Nations". To me that is one of the many things that makes our country great. It would be so boring if everyone were the same.

For starters, because a country needs a national Identity, and if your going to be a citizen you should recognize your primary allegence to the country. Canada is a multi-ethnic multi-cultural country. There is not a problem with recognizing and accepting difference, and it needn't conflict with national unity.

What does conflict with national unity is having ghetoized distinct societies within our borders. This mostly becomes an issue with more extreme muslim communities* and also in some native populations that feel no obligation to the country or it's government, yet still feel that the government owes them much much more than it owes other citizens.

So, while we don't necessarily need a melting pot, we do need to get rid of the ridiculous culturaly-realtivist notion of blind acceptance towards different cultural charachteristics when they conflict with our Canadian Values. We also cannot afford to continue to sacrifice fundemental equality in the face of 'politicaly-correct' practices that favour minorities.



*(if your a citizen that is preaching or adherent to a philosophy that is against everything my country stands for, you're persona non grata in my books)

 

[Gramps]

Fair enough but I would like someone to describe "Canadian values".

 

[camochick]

The biggest problem in my opinion, when it comes to relations between native and non natives is ignorance. People on the outside, on either side, dont see how the other lives. Non natives feel that natives are getting a free ride, while natives are seeing their living conditions as sub par. I am totaly for abolishing reserves. Let the native people have their status, their treaty rights, but get rid of reserves. You can't expect people to understand each other or try to understand each other when you segregate a whole group of people.

 

[onecat]

"You can't expect people to understand each other or try to understand each other when you segregate a whole group of people."

You that is touchy subject, one can look your statement in many ways.  Getting rid of the reserves is an easy way to take away there rights and what limited powers Native Canadians have.  Once their all mixed in where does their voice go?  Also its their land, You just can't take it away anymore.  Just look at Oka, and that was for a goft course.  For most Natives. moving off the reserve means losing there culture and their languages, their way of life.  Dumping reserves is not going to help.

what most Canadians don't understand is that the Native Canadians were here first; they have treaties that give them special rights.  Rights they deserve as they sold off their land or had it taken from them. 

 

[camochick]

I guess I should have said that instead of getting rid of reserves, allow natives to leave the reserve and still have all the same rights they received living on the reserve. I wasnt talking about taking away anyone's land, you obviously didnt read my post well enough. I just think that many natives stay on the reserves because they can have the rights promised to them, and many of these reserves resemble ghettos, perhaps getting away from the reserves would allow them to better themselves.

 

[DogOfWar]

  For most Natives. moving off the reserve means losing there culture and their languages, their way of life.   Dumping reserves is not going to help.

I ve met a handful of natives that can speak there language. They havent any idea of their culture generally either. My uncle moved back to the Rez so he could get a "free house". He didnt care one way or the other about the "culture". None of his 9 kids speek the language or know the culture either,

 

[DogOfWar]

what most Canadians don't understand is that the Native Canadians were here first; they have treaties that give them special rights.   Rights they deserve as they sold off their land or had it taken from them.  

Ive read evidence stating that the Irish and the Vikings were also here first. I suppose they should be given treraties as well. Creating a second class citizenry under the guise of "they were here first" is more racist then anything else. You might as well say "once the community self destructs and they're gone its all ours MUah ha ha"

 

[onewingwonder]

Before replying on specific points, I will answer the seemingly prevailing one: Reserves. Reserves were created for one reason, and one reason only: to keep Indians under control and AWAY from society. All the attendant factors flow from that very simple point. Remember it folks. Every single rule under the Indian Act controlling life on-reserves were made, not to protect Indians, but to protect the Euro-Canadian Society. Slowly, and I mean very slowly, certain rules were relaxed. Took 100+ years until, in the scheme of things, very recently.

Native people do NOT like reserves, as such. But the attachment is there for the simple fact that it is all that is left. And there is the very real fear, that if reserves were abolished, then these tiny chunks of land would soon disappear as well. This is not paranoia, but was government policy. Split up the land, give each adult a tiny plot and see what happens. In very short time, the land is gone and so are the people.

Canuck_25,
what happened to your brother is regrettable, but remember, his not being able to buy (or build) a house, is government policy not the people's. As for racist attitudes, unfortunate, but a fact of life in this country. In my community (my wife's, technically speaking), I would say that over half of the spouses of those between 20-40 are non-native. Just as with any community in this country, attitudes differ.

It's the fact that the native people have severe trouble intergrating into Canadian society, and that some dont even want to! What is stopping a native person from buying a house, renting a appartment, or getting a job?

A question for an answer: why would native people want to "integrate"? Canada does not want us, never has. Look through what I've said before about the treatment dished out and ask the question again. As for a house etc. there is nothing stopping us, or any other Canadian for that matter...other than a large portion of society. Up until the late 60's, a registered Indian could not own property, without giving up your status. An Indian could not become a doctor, or lawyer, or engineer, or police officer, or military officer without giving up status. I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Why not force the others to do the same

Because this is supposed to be a fair and democratic society.

Camochick

You can't expect people to understand each other or try to understand each other when you segregate a whole group of people.

Quite correct, but look at my first paragraph. We didn't ask to be ghettoized, the option for anything else was non-existant.

Beadwindow:

of course few know their language, or culture. But we didn't give them away, they were stolen. Can't you grasp that? THEY WERE STOLEN. Entire generations had their entire heritage stripped and beaten away. For those who have said, "oh, well my grandma taught at a native school and she never did that", well, thats great. But there were grandmas who did, many of them. And yes, similar things were done in orphangaes, or other church-run schools with non-native children. And by God you should be friggin' outraged!

The free house issue is also somewaht of a red-herring. No "free" houses have been built using government moneys for more than 10 years. All houses being built fall under 2 sections of CMHC, who provide the co-signer needed at banks. Those who move into the house (notice I didn't say own) pay the mortgage. These 2 section programs are available to EVERY Canadian, with the exception that everyone else owns the home.

AS to the Irish/Viking bit, you have mis-read the evidence. No-one has ever said that the Irish/Norse were here first, but that they were the first Europeans, pre-dating the Spanish, French, English et al. Some evidence may exist that a possible caucasian society existed over 40,000 years ago, but so far has not been proven. However, even if it were, as a society they disappeared. That of course, was not the case when Europeans arrived here. The land was settled and used. European monarchies, with the Catholic Church, could not even at that time just waltz into a territory and lay a claim if it was occupied. So they invented the law of Terres Nulles (empty, unoccupied land). Which of course, it was not. The same happened with Australia.

Again, I will re-iterate: it has taken 400 years to get to where we are now. Why do people think it can be changed overnight? Only when Canadian Society actually accepts native people, and native concerns, can we even begin to start solving the problem.

And while you are on your next winter-ex, wearing your mukluks, snowshoes and pulling a toboggan, think about what this society really is, and whose beliefs it was founded on.

 

[Bomber]

I have noticed a strange trend.  People with less money than the rest of the people around them will beg for money.  Living in Ottawa, I don't see to many "people off reserves" chasing me for money.  What I do see is 14-18 year old white kids bumming money, smokes, "grants for the research on the effects of pot on the teenage mind", and anything else I might have.  People keep saying that they live near reserves and so they have a problem seeing all this mis-spent money.  If you live near a reserve, guess what, you might see more Native people in dire straights.  Here is the flip side, if you live in a big city, with no reserves, by the logic presented, you would assume that only white people's kids can be in bad financial situations.  live in Ottawa, I have the downtown core and the subburbs to complain about.  When I was in highschool, guys would skip so they could go and beg for cash at the Weirdo (Rideau) Centre cause they made 40 bucks a day doing it.  They lived a couple of blocks form my house in the burbs, but still panhandled.  You often see the "No food, no money, every little bit helps, God Bless" guys walking around the traffic lights with earphones in their ears, or with a cell phone clipped on their belts.  I don't know really what I am trying to get across, but when I see this, I don't think "lazy white kids" because I don't know the situation.  Unless you know, intimately what is going on in a persons life, I can't see how you can be their judge.  Everyone goes on about the 2 percent of the society, like I said in a previous post, that is still about 600 000 people.  You can say anything you want about how few that number is, but you can't treat 600 000 people like they are less than human, and expect them to love you in return.  Dogs don't return the love, so why would people.  

Onewing speaks with a bit of authority, he has first hand knowledge of the issues, a guy that "drives through town" does not have first hand knowledge.  The inmates running the asylum was the best analogy of this problem that i have ever heard.  Everyone keeps throwing around a statement of "stop throwing the race card" and "this is a heated issue"  I agree, but to come off and state what you believe is fact, without any support, in an attempt to generalize or marginalize a person is racist.  If you see a drunk Native person, and say "all natives are drunks" Jeff Foxworthy would offer you a life time membership to the You might be a redneck club.  Had you said "after seeing him fail a Breathalyzer test, I concluded that the man was drunk" you would be stating a fact.  How can you tell a man is drunk, perhaps he suffered some form of head injury while being "enlightened" with a 6 pound good book in a residential school.  

I don't think there is a problem with the "they were here first" argument. Look at it more like, "They were here first, we made deals for land, then changed our minds, took more and abused the hell out of them, and now we are faced with a problem that needs to be solved, but we aren't making a real effort to fix it."  Saying to abolish the resesrves sounds a bit like regressing.  Saying that my uncle is a native and he just wants the free house so he moved to the res, is also a lame argument, something that could only be argued when there is no one but native people on social assistance in the entire country.  No one on this board can convince me that first people are lazy, stupid, or out only to serve themselves.  I see everyday that there are lazy, stupid, and self serving people everywhere in this country and of every colour and background.  

Write to you MP's about this problem, asking them to put a bit more effort into this, as opposed to changing the definition marriage.  Only when people really want to solve a problem does it get solved.  People need to see that when you are in a deep hole, the best thing to do is to stop digging.  And don't try to fill the hole with money, you won't get out for a long time.  

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Up until the late 60's, a registered Indian could not own property, without giving up your status. An Indian could not become a doctor, or lawyer, or engineer, or police officer, or military officer without giving up status. I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Yup, you are going to use rules that were made long before most present Canadians were even born to make them feel as though they are guilty of something,

...Lets get this straight {RANT ON} I HAD NO CONTROL OVER THINGS THAT HAPPENED BEFORE I WAS EVEN BORN ,JUST AS YOU [for lack of a more suitable term, sorry] HAD NO CONTROL OVER WHAT HAPPENED. DON'T GIVE ME THE "CULTURE STOLEN THING" AS I GUESS IN THAT CASE MY "CULTURE" IS BACK IN ENGLAND SOMEWHERE. MY " CULTURE" STARTED THE DAY I WAS BORN AND WILL END THE DAY I DIE, HOW I CHOSE IT TO BE IS MY DESICION, AND MINE ONLY. I WILL NOT APOLIGISE,  HOWEVER I WILL ALSO NOT FORGET THE BAD DESICIONS THAT WERE MADE YEARS AGO AND WOULD LOVE TO MAKE "EVERYONE" FEEL AS THOUGH THEY BELONG HERE..........AS EQUALS. [RANT OFF]

I'm tired now......

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
I don't think there is a problem with the "they were here first" argument. Look at it more like, "They were here first, we made deals for land, then changed our minds, took more and abused the heck out of them,

Bomber,
Good post for the most part, exept this. Who the heck is we? I can assure I nor anyone I know did these things so stop using a racist comment like that, cause thats what it is, lad.
I'm curious if in your mind first-generation Sri Lankin's immigrants are actually Canadian's as I can't see how they could be responsible for some of the "abuse" you mentioned........or are they not included in your definition of "WE"?

 

[DogOfWar]

Beadwindow:

of course few know their language, or culture. But we didn't give them away, they were stolen. Can't you grasp that? THEY WERE STOLEN. Entire generations had their entire heritage stripped and beaten away. For those who have said, "oh, well my grandma taught at a native school and she never did that", well, thats great. But there were grandmas who did, many of them. And yes, similar things were done in orphangaes, or other church-run schools with non-native children. And by God you should be friggin' outraged!

The Scottish side of my family had there culture stripped, the language stripped, and there last name stripped by the french in a certain area- should I hold them accountable? No. If I wish to have my "idnetity" back I have to pursue it on my own. The same goes for pursuing my MicMac heritage. I shouldnt try and hold the rest of the country accountable for things that happened 400 years ago. At some point the debt must be repaid. Or should my one set of grandparents be sending repairations to my other grandparents forever?

However I agree that it isnt a matter of "abolishing" reserves and all the programs. At this point in time doing so would be a death sentance to native peoples. But personal responsibility must be slowly given back to the native people.

 

[Hunter]

They are called reservations, not reserves.