Won't Stand on guard for thee - a man's opposition to the Canadian flag & anthem

[Canuck_25]

Well, im not sure about the rest of Canada, but here, the natives are quite wealthy (the ones that have jobs.) They enjoy so many benfits over the rest of Canadians that its only a matter of time people start speaking up. Im talking about no income tax, no sales tax, goverment handouts (provincial and federal), easy access to university (can enter with lower grades than the average Canadian), more scholarships and burseraries for natives, monthly payment to attend highschool ($60), specail status for native students at schools (native room, native classes.) Thats only a little bit.

It gets frustrating. Why should we have to pay for new houses every 10 years? Im serious, ive talked to contractors and they cant believe the amount of corruption and waste in the system. End it. Why should a Canadian of chinese origen, japanese origen, indian origen, french origen and British origen have to pay for waste. I cant believe people will complain about the sponsorship scandal when this *** is going on.

I have native friends, some think the system is a joke. They think it promotes racism because it creates anger amoung other members of the community. One of them saw the CF's native program as a insult to Canadians, because they were told that they could enter the CF easier than other Canadians.





Its total crap

OO ya, if you dont believe me, pick up a CF recruitment form, it asks you your race.

 

[a_majoor]

Simple solution; if this jamoke says he is not a Canadian Citizen, then cut him off from all the various benifits Canadian Citizens have access to, including his government paycheque and any pension monies he may have been eligable to prior to his self forfiture of citizenship.

 

[TCBF]

Ah yes, but you see, this "citizen of the world" cr_p the pols have us following has downgraded the value of being a citizen.  Anyone washing up in a boat has the same rights as you and me.

Tom

 

[Shec]

I don't condone what the School Trustee did and said, but the majority  reaction on this thread leads me to ask:  Did it ever occur to some of you that perhaps if your comments didn't represent the main stream the problem wouldn't exist?    Furthermore, like most prejudices yours are rooted in much ignorance.  For instance,

How many of you have ever read a Treaty?   While open to interpretation they meet all the tests of contract law - offer, acceptance, and consideration.  

How many of you know that Canada's Indian Act was the model for South Africa's Apartheid laws?  Isn't that something to be proud of?       Small wonder there is a legacy of alienation and bitterness.

However the good news is the Human Development Index shows that the gap in the standard of living that seperates Aboriginal Canadians from the rest of the population has closed from 179 in 1981 to 115 in 2001.    So our tax dollars are not being flushed down the toilet.  

And the opportunity to re-write the Treaties as a  land claim gives First Nations the opportunity to do something the Indian Act denied them - land ownership.  Which BTW is the key to economic development.

We Canadians like to preach tolerance and aid overseas.   How about a little in our own backyard?  

 

[badpup]

Hmm Interesting........
My forefathers were evicted from the ancestral land in Scotland, perhaps I should apply to the UK Gov't for a land grant, schooling, and cash to support myself. :

 

[TCBF]

The reason those "Ghettos" exist is that the money targeted to solve the problems gets stolen.  Pols all the way back to Trudeau - and his Indian Affairs minister Chretien - said this doesn't work, we have to mainstream them.  Prob is, if we dismantle the taxpayer funded feudal Bantustans we call reserves - the gravy train that keeps the chiefs and powerful in SUVs will get derailed.

The powerful are rich, and the rest barely exist.  

Why do YOU tolerate this?

What use is living in one of the best countries in the world, and not wanting to be a part of it?

Note: We are not responsible - morally, ethically, or monetarily - for the sins of our fathers.

Tom

 

[dutchie]

I don't condone what the School Trustee did and said, but the majority  reaction on this thread leads me to ask:  Did it ever occur to some of you that perhaps if your comments didn't represent the main stream the problem wouldn't exist?    Furthermore, like most prejudices yours are rooted in much ignorance.  

Nice. Start your post by accusing us of being racially prejudiced.

How many of you have ever read a Treaty?   While open to interpretation they meet all the tests of contract law - offer, acceptance, and consideration.  

So I have to have either read a treaty, or be an expert in the field to question the common sense of it, or it's obvious contradiction (recognizing previous injustices by creating injustice)?

How many of you know that Canada's Indian Act was the model for South Africa's Apartheid laws?  Isn't that something to be proud of?       Small wonder there is a legacy of alienation and bitterness.

So, what exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Islamic fascists use the Koran to justify terrorism...should we condemn the Koran?

However the good news is the Human Development Index shows that the gap in the standard of living that seperates Aboriginal Canadians from the rest of the population has closed from 179 in 1981 to 115 in 2001.    So our tax dollars are not being flushed down the toilet.  

Explain please....179 of what?

And the opportunity to re-write the Treaties as a  land claim gives First Nations the opportunity to do something the Indian Act denied them - land ownership.  Which BTW is the key to economic development.

Is there something in the Indian Act that forbids Indians (Natives) from owning land?

We Canadians like to preach tolerance and aid overseas.   How about a little in our own backyard?  

We also preach education, but that didn't stop you when you posted.

 

[AmmoTech90]

What I find amusing is his last name, Linklater.  This is a fairly uncommon name as it originates in Orkney.  Orcadians provided 416 out of the 530 Hudson's Bay agents in 1799 and that tradition continued for centuries.  This means there's a lot of Orcadians in the woodpile up north.  If it wasn't for a caucasian man that came to Canada to help the gather the natural resources of Canada the complainer would never have been born.

So in my mind he is actually turning his back on half of his heritage.  Must suck to hate half of yourself.

 

[TCBF]

"Orcadians in the woodpile"

I got it.  But I am fifty.

Tom

 

[beach_bum]

Hmm Interesting........
My forefathers were evicted from the ancestral land in Scotland, perhaps I should apply to the UK Gov't for a land grant, schooling, and cash to support myself. :

Yes.  My family came from Ireland.  Perhaps I should go after those who took my families lands.  Oh wait!  Look at the way they were treated when they came to Canada.  No one would hire the Irish!  They were treated worse than dogs.  I would like to be compensated for the anguish and suffering my family suffered.

 

[T.I.M.]

So I have to have either read a treaty, or be an expert in the field to question the common sense of it, or it's obvious contradiction (recognizing previous injustices by creating injustice)?

Well, you can question the acts of the Crown at the time they signed the Treaties, but the fact is they're still legally binding documents, and they commit the Canadian government to provide and guarantee certain rights for the Aboriginal people.

That the Canadian government has failed to provide what was agreed to until recently is less a contradiction brought about by belated morality, and more an expression of the growing legal and political power of the Aboriginals to fight for what was promised.


Most Canadians don't really understand the issues.  I certainly didn't before I came up to the North.

 

[Sheerin]

"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" - Volatire

Man, I love Canada.

No sarcasm.

They need to get over it.  They may have lived here for thousands of years, but they didn't build any cities, railroads, dams, power stations, they overworked the land and killed off the buffalo in large numbers.  The white man came along and took it from him, and that's that.  Not that we haven't done our own bit of harm with pollution and industrialization, but I think we're much better off now, living to the age of 65 or 70, and in peace with our neighbours, with infant mortality at the lowest its ever been, than the way things used to be.

So what if they didn't build cities, rialroads, damns, or whatever?  These are all recent inventions, and were all born out of necessity.  If the natives of North America needed to build them they would have.
As for the comments on cities, look at their south American counter parts, they produced massive cities.  In the Southern US there were many large residential areas that were occupied for many generations.  In BC there is the Indians of the Lillooet region who for thouands of years had extremely complex social and economic systems that were based on the salmon.  There is one site at Keatley Creek that was occupied for a significant amount of time (many generations over many hundreds of years). 

Are we better off now?  I don't know. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I probably wouldn't feel so angry about it if the billions we spend on Aboriginal Affairs filtered down to the people who need it, maybe they could pull themselves up. However, in most cases, they're used as pawns by their own, kept in servitude, squalor and poverty by the 1% of their band leaders, who squander most of the money on themselves and relatives, then claim WE'RE screwing them.

 

[Canuck_25]

Yes.   My family came from Ireland.   Perhaps I should go after those who took my families lands.   Oh wait!   Look at the way they were treated when they came to Canada.   No one would hire the Irish!   They were treated worse than dogs.   I would like to be compensated for the anguish and suffering my family suffered.

You have a point there. Or what about the non native school children on reserves, they were abused too. Actaully, the abuses werent as wide spread as some might believe. My grandma taught at one in Alert Bay, she never ever abused the childern, she taught english.

 

[Whiskey_Dan]

I am one of many first generation Canadians in this country, and as such, I am immensely proud to be able to wear the uniform of this great nation. It is true, that man works in the civil service sector, and he accepts a pay check from the government of Canada. So he should stand proper and face the Canadian flag as the National Anthom is played.
With no intention to offend any Native person here, I do believe that they cry fowl and in the words of my Biology teacher "whine" too much. They are Canadian citizens and should only be treated as such. If they want equality, then it means taking the billions of dollars we invest in them each year, and closing down all reserves and treat them as such...as equals. That, however, is just my opinion and I would invite anyone who would want to put there's here as I have had the oppurtunity to do so.

Let the flag continue to fly high.

Dan

 

[ZipperHead]

I'm fairly surprised at how upset people get over this issue, on both sides. Like it was stated, a lot of people's prejudice is based on ignorance. Like T.I.M, I had to take a Cross Cultural Awareness class (I took mine when I worked at the Whitehorse cadet camp a few years back, which exists primarily for the "northern" cadets). It really opened my eyes to why groups (not neccesarily Aboriginals, but specifically tribal groups) act the way they do compared to what we consider "normal". I had a lot of preconceptions about Natives shattered or at least explained (I wish I could remember the name of the professor who taught us, but he was amazing..... by FAR the best course I have ever had in the CF).

I myself have never read a Treaty (who has time nowadays  ;D), but I'm sure the majority of the people who are outright opposed to any Treaty rights never have, so how do they know what is right, and what is wrong? I grew up in BC, in a fishing community, and I was annoyed no end that there were 16 year old native kids wearing $300 shit-kickers and driving their own cars to school, as they worked on a family owned fishing boat, that had ultra low interest payments, and were usually paid off in a few seasons, if not one good one. Many of my friends (non-native) fished as well, but it was more diificult for them as they didn't get the same benefits. Mind you, you didn't see too many poor fisherman (back then)..... But, at least these natives were working to get their money, and I would say the majority do, but everybody likes dwelling on the bums. Can anyone say "white trash"? It's easier to identify natives by their skin, so they stand out if they are the guy standing on the corner, loaded, bumming for change. I see a lot of young white kids doing that in big cities, but that doesn't bother people.

I think that the native communities need to show more solidarity and more effort at policing themselves. An example of this, is the Oromocto First Nation. Their reserve butts up against the north end of the base here in Gagetown, and a lot of their homes are visibile from the road. Some are in a shite state, and if they wanted any repsect from me, they would keep them in good order. There are some homes that show a pride of ownership, but too many look like people living in them don't give a rat's arse. If they policed themselves (like some communities, usually hoytie-toytie ones, but also blue collar ones, do) and at least presented the image of living in decent standard, people would show a little more respect.

As a counter-point, I will mention a time we had to get land clearance while training in the civvie world in Alberta. We wanted to use a piece of property to set up for the night and went to the nearest houes. It reminded me of Cletus' house on the Simpson's. Rusting cars everywhere, and fridge with no door in the front yard. I was afraid to walk across the deck, as it was rotting away. I knocked on the door, and Joe Dirt answered. Nice guy (white), but not a whole lot of pride in his house. He directed me with vague directions to the land owner of the area we wanted to use. Anyway, this farm was immaculate, with golf course style lawn, tools hung properly, everything in order. Turns out they were Dutch immigrants, and brought with them European style pride in their property. This doesn't mean you have to be European to have pride, as we all know that the Natives were once proud, but when you give people everything, and have them not know what it's like to work for something (ie handouts), they take it for granted, and just want more, the easy way (sounds kinda like all the rumbling ref our last pay raise.... WE WANT MORE, AND WANT TO DO LESS!!!!!)

I think if people took the time to find out what the treaties provide(d), people would be a little more willing to accept (well, maybe not accept, but be more tolerable of) what they are asking for. Mind you, when land claims in any given area exceed 100% of the area, I think that people are getting a little greedy. But if you are going to throw out a bone, you better expect a lot of fighting over it.

I feel a certain amount of sympathy to the Natives over the loss of "their" land, as I'm fairly certain that our forefather's probably weren't the most ethical in their dealings with an "uncivilized" group of people, whose concept of money wasn't on par with the European's. But by the same token, that was a long time ago, and if we are paying for the sins of our fathers, would it be right to continually punish any Native misdeeds carried out that long ago as well? "Sorry, your great-great-great-great-grandfather stole a horse. Time to pay up (with interest)!!!"

I see a lot of emotion being shown over this, and as I've been reminded by mods (and others here, on unrelated issues): show some respect, and remember that people other than CF members, or sympathizers, read this, and it could easily be taken out of context, and cast the CF in a bad light. That's my Dudley Do-Right act for the day....

Al

 

[Long in the tooth]

Allan - your comments seem very well balanced.  How do we move forward?  I hate to overuse 'win-win'; we can all move forward here.  I see hope clearly in the APTN.  My kids enjoy this!  What is a greater endorsement than this?  While I believe that injustices have been done, entitlementlism can't go on forever.  The barrel is getting empty and both sides are going to have to give until it hurts.  In good faith.

Let's stop the rant, postive suggestions please.

 

[Shec]

Nice. Start your post by accusing us of being racially prejudiced.

So I have to have either read a treaty, or be an expert in the field to question the common sense of it, or it's obvious contradiction (recognizing previous injustices by creating injustice)?
So, what exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Islamic fascists use the Koran to justify terrorism...should we condemn the Koran?

Explain please....179 of what?
Is there something in the Indian Act that forbids Indians (Natives) from owning land?
We also preach education, but that didn't stop you when you posted.

As T.I.M. pointed out above, a treaty is a legal document.   Therefore its clauses,   which reference among other things tax exemptions, housing, economic development, health, and education to Indians in exchange for peace and land-use, are binding.   Furthermore, they are binding in perpetuity.   "For as long as the sun shall rise and the rivers shall flow" is a phrase common to all of the treaties.

The Indian Act took the treaties a step further and created the reserves on Crown land where residents were made wards of the state and private land ownership is prohibited.   If you don't own the land, developing it and borrowing against it is difficult.  

The Human Development Index measures and compares differences in quality of life between a reference population, in this case Canada as a whole,   vs. the target population, in this case registered (ie. status/on reserve) Indians.

In 1981 Canadians as a whole scored .806 on a scale that tops out at 1.00.    That same year registered Indians scored .627.     .806   - .627 =   .179.   That difference is the gap between the 2 populations.    

20 years later, in 2001,   Canadians as a whole scored .880 and registered Indians scored .765, the difference being .115.

Within the Aboriginal population itself   the magnitude of the difference has declined from .179 to .115   over 20 years, an indicator that progress is being made.  

 

[Blackhorse7]

I have to agree with the general atmosphere of this thread... it ain't right.  You live in this country, you follow it's traditions and beliefs.  That man would not be here today if not for a lot of the things that this country has done for his people, for ALL people for that matter.

My mom summed it up best.  When you keep throwing money at "The Aboriginal Problem", you create a situation where you are enabling failure.  There is rampant misuse of funds, and a sense that the country owes me a living.  Let's face facts.  Our forefathers very likely DID take advantage of the native man way back then.  But let's move on.  Why should our generation, and future generations continue to pay for mistakes that were made over 100 years ago?  I tell you this, I feel cheap when I have to borrow money from someone to pay a bill, or make ends meet.  I can't begin to understand what it must be like to be just given money, vehicles, homes, etc.  I had to work to get what I have.  I say we end this division of Canadian, and Native.  The very idea make us separate in our own nation.  Set an agenda, and say, there will no longer be a separate class of status for anyone in the country.  All will simply be Canadians.  I'm sure there would be some hard times and growing pains, but could you imagine what this nation could be with all of us working as Canadians towards a common goal? 

By the way... look up "native" in the dictionary.. "a person born in a certain place or country."  Last time I checked, that was me.

 

[dutchie]

As T.I.M. pointed out above, a treaty is a legal document.   Therefore its clauses,   which reference among other things tax exemptions, housing, economic development, health, and education to Indians in exchange for peace and land-use, are binding.   Furthermore, they are binding in perpetuity.   "For as long as the sun shall rise and the rivers shall flow" is a phrase common to all of the treaties.

Laws are rewritten all the time. Times change, and some laws are no longer reflective of the society over which they govern. I feel that this is the case here. Case in point, in the Southern US, there once were laws restricting the rights of people based on race. Should they have abided by those laws blindly? Obviously not. Times change, and society becomes more and more enlightened...in most cases.

The treaties and the Indian Act are completely outdated. They were written after a long armed struggle between Euros and Indians, and I feel they have guaranteed limited integration of Natives in mainstream Canadian society. The language and tone of the treaties and the Act freeze the relationship between Euros and Natives to one of confrontation. The very fact that it is called a treaty is indicative of this. Treaties are supposed to be between two nations, and until Natives are viewed, by themselves and others, as being first and foremost Canadians, this subtle adversarial relationship will continue and prosperity for Natives in this CANADIAN society will never occur.

Why should we continue to honour those treaties blindly? They are a mistake. How can any rational person justify granting rights based solely on race? It is completely immoral. I defy anyone to present a sound argument to the contrary. I feel that they should be ripped up and replaced with agreements that reflect current society, and above all be fair to all.