Won't Stand on guard for thee - a man's opposition to the Canadian flag & anthem

[Guest]

Story gave wrong idea of trustee's intentions

The sub-headline in the story, School trustee takes issue with flag (SP, March 12) incorrectly said that I sat during the national anthem. I have always stood up during playing of O Canada, and will always continue to do so. My intention never was to disrespect the flag or the anthem. Contrary to the story, I have never participated in or initiated a "silent protest" in my life. This article didn't describe the essence of my conversation with the reporter or its wider context. The story may lead people to jump to wrong conclusions about who I am. As a young man, I participated in boxing and proudly represented Canada in many international competitions, winning bronze medals at both the Commonwealth Games and the World Cup of Boxing. I'm fortunate to have been sober for 23 years, and am a proud member of the Thunderchild First Nation. I'm happy to live in the Westmount neighbourhood where my wife and I own a home. We have four sons, all of whom attend public schools. My entire share of education taxes goes to support public schools. My intention in seeking the postion of trustee during the 2003 election was to work to address the challenges and hardships carried by many of our community's youth. We must find the will and the resources to ensure that they will succeed in life. Too often, the media focuses on conflict and disagreement. First Nations people often use a talking circle to ensure understanding and consensus. I propose a circle for all who would have a say in what we do.

Vernon Linklater
Trustee, Ward 2

 

[Gramps]

"Actually governments break treaties all the time. They are only pieces of paper after all. They can break this one too if they had the gumption"

True but, is'n the Charter of Rights and Freedoms just a piece of paper too? Where do we draw the line?

 

[BDG.CalgHighrs]

Wow quite the read.

I had a long reply written, but upon editing it, I realised that I could not restrain myself from swearing every second word. I'll Try again later when I have cooled off some.

 

[sdimock]

Story gave wrong idea of trustee's intentions

Too often, the media focuses on conflict and disagreement.

Vernon Linklater
Trustee, Ward 2

Welcome to Army.ca

I have seen the media use the focus of a story for dramatic effect rather report facts.

To the point that even though I've been a witness I wasn't sure they were talking about the same event.

Drama, conflict and disagreement, I think they figure they can't sell without it.

Thank you for clarifying your position.

Chimo

 

[onewingwonder]

First, I've been perusing this board for some time, but this is my first post. Considering some of the comments which I've read on this thread, I felt it absolutely necessary to register and comment. I served the Crown both in Canada and in the UK, and have the scrolls, plaques, T's etc. on my walls to show it. My father, his father and uncles, all of their fathers and most uncles and so on, and so on have served the Crown in uniform. Many died for the people of this country, others were destroyed emotionally etc. You all know the drill. As far back as can be documented, even before this country was known as Canada, my family has served.

And I am Aboriginal. Did I attend a residential school? No, but my father and both his parents did. Did my wife go to residential school? No, but 2 of her siblings did, both her parents, all of her aunts and uncles. My wife, on the other hand, was lucky. She was only taken from her family by the Canadian system, sent to the States and used as labour for "well-meaning" white folk. Forced to live in a closet with her sister, in the basement for 2 years and taken out to work or to show the nice Social Workers that all was OK. And this, when she was only 8.

Now, in all honesty, are you asking people who've lived this to forgive and forget? To simply get on with their lives and be good "Canadians"?

As to other "facts" being brought up, some of you need a serious education. Well over half of regsitered Indians live and work off-reserve. They pay every single tax you do. The only people who don't pay income tax, are those who live and work on-reserve. PST and GST are no different. Provinces make their own laws with regards PST. Some allow "Indians" to not pay PST, but you need to live on-reserve to benefit. Everyone pays GST, unless goods are delivered on-reserve. At the same time as paying these taxes, Bands must also pay to send kids to schools off-reserve. In essence, a double tax. How many here are forced to pay $5K to send their kids to High School?

The situations that exist on-reserve are due, completely, to successive Canadian Governments. You (meaning the Cdn Govs) set out deliberately to destroy a people and then complain later on that they can't control their destinies. You destroy entire cultures, by every/any means possible and then wonder why the communities are so disfunctional. You starve, poison, steal and cheat to your heart's content and then wonder why entire generations drink/drug themselves to death. You teach people that their way of treating the entire community as one big family, as taking care of everyone equally, as being wrong. That the pursuit of personal gain, property and prestige are the right things. Then you complain that "leaders" of the Bands are treating their people unfairly.

That is the reality of the situations as it stands. How many realized that the majority of INAC money goes not to the Bands or people, but into the bureaucracy?

Their were no Indian Wars here. Colonial governments wrote up self-serving documents called Treaties, forced them down the throats of "Chiefs", then proceeded to break them. And have continued to do so to this day. Canadian politicians are gutless, refusing to take responsibility for their, or their predeccesors' actions. When actions end in the Supreme Court, with Government losing, they complain to the electorate that it is not their fault, but the damned courts. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is Canadian Democracy.

Aboriginal people fight for what they know, and Court's have agreed, is right and yet are labelled criminals. Native "insurrections" must be quelled. The Democratic Dominion of Canada must send more troops to Kanehsatake, than they do to Kuwait. Certain police officers commit murder and assassination, but Aboriginal people should respect the rule of Law. If that is to be expected, if Aboriginal peoples are to be proud to be Canadians, then we need something other than the status quo to be proud of.

Not meaning to denegrate others' achievements, but you would be hard-pressed to find any citizen of this country who is more loyal to this land and her people than Aboriginals. If some show a certain disrespect, you had better believe there is a good and valid reason to do so. All of our ancestors, yours and mine, shed blood on the same battlefields, both here and abroad. Yours returned as heroes, ours returned as...second or third-class citizens. We could die for this country and her people, but we COULD NOT VOTE!

I could go on, but should leave it for now and wait for comments both good and bad. But I will leave you with this final thought: No, it wasn't you who committed these acts against Aboriginal People. But, maybe your neighbour, maybe your Great Aunty Gertrude, maybe your local police Chief, maybe your MLA or MP, maybe the nice old Nun who teaches your daughter music. Maybe they did. And they, ladies and gentleman, should be held accountable. In the great scheme of things, we are all responsible. To ignore this fact, is to repeat history.

 

[Infanteer]

Interesting post.  Some of it is correct and some of it I take issue with.

Bottom line is, as you said, we are all responsible.  If we sit here and bitch about the past, nothing will get done except for finger-pointing.

 

[onewingwonder]

What in particular do you take issue with? Maybe I can change your mind. 8)

 

[Infanteer]

Actually, when I reread your post, I do agree with most of what you said (residential schools, taxes, government paternalism, denial of citizenship) but, and I just may be reading it wrong, I disagreed with the general tone of the post which seemed to imply that there was some sort of Government plot to destroy Native's in Canada.   The "Clash of Cultures", replete with fighting, coercision, and underhanded dealings, is present whenever societies mingle (it's part of being human, I guess) - the Native societies of North America seemed to do well in fighting and displacing eachother prior to Europeans showing up.   Not condoning what went on, but I refuse to accept that there is something unique about the problem or that "The Government" or "Whites" as a whole had some sort of goal of reducing the Native population of Canada to bondage.

Ok, perhaps I do take aim at one statement:

Aboriginal people fight for what they know, and Court's have agreed, is right and yet are labelled criminals. Native "insurrections" must be quelled. The Democratic Dominion of Canada must send more troops to Kanehsatake, than they do to Kuwait. Certain police officers commit murder and assassination, but Aboriginal people should respect the rule of Law. If that is to be expected, if Aboriginal peoples are to be proud to be Canadians, then we need something other than the status quo to be proud of.

Some members of this board have been personally involved with these incidents (Oka, Gustafson Lake) and they can probably address the issue better, but I feel that any group of Canadians, regardless of background, who arm themselves to the teeth and start shooting at soldiers and LEO's are breaking the law, pure and simple.   There is no excuse for this within Canada.

As well, I again stress that we are all responsible.   The problem that Natives in Canada face here and now are not only the fault of the White Man or the Government.   I believe (you can disagree with me) that the "Indian Industry" is alive and kicking - you alluded to it somewhat with mention of the money that INAC takes in.   Somehow, when a Council gets in and its members take in 6 figure salaries while 80% of the band is on welfare, I fail to see how this is strictly the governments fault.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I am fed up with all of this.  I should not be paying for something that happened 300 years ago.  Sure the natives have the treaties, and all that jazz, sure I stereotype all the time, but come on here it is harder not to.

The system set up for the Native population is horrible, I live in Duncan BC, where the Cowichan tribe has a wealth of money, but it doesn't filter back down into the native community.  Driving through the reserve and looking at the housing, over 50% of the housing is run down, and looks horrible.  I feel that if someone never has to work for anything he owns, then he isn't going to have any pride at all in anything, I mean why would they?  All they have to do is wait and they will be given something else.

I know that there are natives out there who are proud of their heritage, and it shows.  I love to see that, and it doesn't bother me at all when I see it, but when I am walking out of the superstore, and a drunk native is asking for my loonie from the shopping cart, I get pissed off.  I mean canadians give you money for everything you need, schooling, housing, BOOZE, but you are out here begging for my loonie?  Get Bent.

We had a native on one of the frigates I was serving on in 2001, and she had a crab trap with her.  The Commanding officer allowed her to throw the crab trap off the side of the ship, in local waters.  I have no idea what you need for a crab licence, but she didn't hold one.  Now I am picturing me sitting in my little boat, with this big grey (robin egg blue) ship, and there is a sailor throwing off a crab trap.....I disagree with this practice.  Does the army allow native infanteers to shoot moose on the range?  

I have been told that I (white guy ancestors have been here since the 1700's) have been oppressing the natives!  Once again I disagree.  If it was the white man that signed all these treaties, and it is the white man keeping them down, then I think that anyone who moved to Canada after the treaties have been signed, shouldn't have to pay squat..............

Clearly it isn't working, and we need a change.  I don't feel that natives represent what this nation is, and as only 2% of the population is native, it really bothers me how the other 98% have to give them money, and deal with the accusations of oppression.

Crime is high in Duncan........ I will let you guess why........If he won't stand for the flag or show respect, let him, part of living in a free country is the ability to express yourself.  Although I don't agree with it.  It is better than pointing a gun at his head and ordering him to show respect.  

 

[onewingwonder]

I know that there are natives out there who are proud of their heritage, and it shows.  I love to see that, and it doesn't bother me at all when I see it, but when I am walking out of the superstore, and a drunk native is asking for my loonie from the shopping cart, I get pissed off.  I mean canadians give you money for everything you need, schooling, housing, BOOZE, but you are out here begging for my loonie?  Get Bent.

Thank you for approving of our pride. :

As for the remainder of this quote, it is a clear and racist comment. Canada has given me nothing other than what other citizens get and I have given considerably more to this country, through my service, than the huge majority of non-aboriginal Canadians.

If your former Boss approved her use of the crab pot, whose fault is that. As well, are you saying that no individual has ever fished off the sides of any HMCS?

As opposed to telling you to get bent, I simply counter with: get educated and grow up.

 

[Infanteer]

Ok, first of all, Sub-Guy - that was a pretty unconstructive rant.  I come from a town with 4 Reserves where things are pretty bad, and I can feel your frustration towards individuals, but onewingwonder is correct when he identifies Government paternalism as one of the real important factors of casuality.

Second of all, onewingwonder put up a response to my earlier post which, in an attempt to "quote", I instead "modified" and ruined.  I let him know and apologized, but here is the response (with much of his original and now lost post quoted):

If I wasn't so lazy in my retirement, I would dreg up all the archival documents which prove that it was the various colonial governments intentions to commit cultural genocide and in numerous cases physical genocide. If you deliberately set out out to destroy a people's religion, language, social structure and culture through theft, political intrigue, murder and kidnappings, then yes, I would have to call that a plot. Just so that I'm not being seen as using too broad a brush to make my points, I would never, and have never, blamed "whites" for anything. After all, mum's folks are from Northeat England near the Scots border.

Ok, it's the "Whites" thing I was more concerned about.

I still feel that "plot" seems to point to scheming bad guys pulling puppet strings - I think that what happened between the Natives and the European settlers was what happens when societies collide.  Nasty and brutish, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary in terms of the march of civilization  :-\.

In a regular context, I would agree. But nothing about Oka was regular(as for Gustafson, "Wolverine" and the boys were wrong). If the government sent an armed force to help desecrate your parents graves, would you take up arms? I would say that any person would.

You're right, it was unusual - the way I understand it there was ambiguity on who had the land (in legal terms, which are important) and an internal dispute within the band. 

However, my ire is more directed towards the the "Warrior Societies" that took up arms against both Police and Soldiers (and murdered a LEO) and turned up the violence level when they showed up - not on in my books, especially watching videos on how these fellows conducted themselves.  Interesting, while googling the Oka, I found this condemnation of "Warriors" by the Six Nations:

http://www.sixnations.org/Threats_to_Traditional_Governments/

As to the "Indian Industry", I completely concur. An industry created by governments, for governments plain and simple.

Oh, I didn't mean to say that it was just Natives - I guarantee you that there are bureaucrats out there that would go to the stake to defend the Department of Indian Affair's 7 billion dollar budget.  But I don't feel that this is a "Government Only" scheme - people are people, regardless of background, and some (including Natives) will take the opportunity to get themselves ahead at the cost of their neighbours. 

That being said, it is clear that the Government has the ability to pull the plug on the industry.  The problem is that, whenever people try to change the system, they usually get labelled as racists - this is where the Natives in the Industry come into play; they have no qualms against calling down proposals for reform when it means their sacred cow will get killed (I think the Canadian Taxpayers Federation has put forward a few decent ideas and I remember their presenter getting called down for various reasons by angry Natives).

 

[onewingwonder]

Infanteer,

apology was not needed. As stated, cerebral flatulance is alive and well in my addled brain.

I still feel that "plot" seems to point to scheming bad guys pulling puppet strings - I think that what happened between the Natives and the European settlers was what happens when societies collide.   Nasty and brutish, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary in terms of the march of civilization

True. The problem being that the puppetmasters were the colonial governments. Settlers often found themselves caught in the middle and were often lied to in the same way as aboriginal people. You just need to look at the whole Selkirk Settlement/Red River "Rebbellion" issue.

As for Kanehsatake/Oka, the municipality overstepped it's legal bounds by calling in the SQ and contravening an existing court-order. A completely peaceful "protest" existed at the time, often involving nothing more than a large,stuffed Snoopy doll sitting in a pickup. As to how the situation ended up where it did, it again goes back to government apathy and mis-management of the lands. As a result,a man doing his job, was killed unecessarily.

I, fortunately or unfortunately, have more than a layman's knowledge of the Warrior Society of those times. I will however, not comment specifically on that aspect, other than to say that they did lose the support of the majority of the community (and yes, the Confederacy itself) in how they went about putting forward their agenda, losing sight of the true issue of the moment. At the same time, it shows a peoples incredible frustration at always being put on the back burner. The issue of whether Little Johnny can have free day-care being more important to the Governments than whether an entire people will be able to hold onto the tiny pice of land left over.

I am loath to do so, but feel it necessary in this context, to point out that on occasion soldiers wearing HM's uniforms have acted as bad, or worse. I am also loath to call many of those who called themselves "warriors" as true Warriors. SHYTE...said I wouldn't do that. :-X

Canadian bureaucracies must be amongst the most degenerate in the world, regardless of department. I'll leave it at that, lest I put my foot in my mouth and insult any who may be here. Not my intention.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone, regardless of race who uses that card to cover up their own inadequecies, is a wanker. It has become, to my utter dismay, the bane of this fluffy-bunny-slippers society which we currently call Canada. But, I will also say that any individual who will stereotype an entire group of people (with widely different cultures) into one pot based on BS and prejudice, should be placed in no-man's-land, destined to dodge the bullets for eternity. As you may note, I truly despise fluffy-bunny-slippers.

Edit: BTW Infanteer, you have destroyed my preconceived notion that all ground-types were of the knuckledragger variety. You nasty man, you. And they say an old dog can't learn new tricks.

 

[Gramps]

This is for onewingwonder.
All I have to say about all of your posts here is    "Well Put" 

 

[onewingwonder]

Gramps,

I appreciate the comment. As an old Rock Ape (RAF Regiment) Sgt. once told me, in my yoof, if you can't learn something from someone else every day and educate someone else, then "you ain't worth the spit I put on my boots...Sah!".

 

[Gramps]

I was just re-reading many of the posts here and I am shocked and apalled at the amount of racism that many of the people with whom I serve are showing. Many people will say that they are not racist at all and use lines like " Im not racist my best friend is (place any ethnic group here)". I also find that in this country and most of North America it is okay to be racist as long as you are talking about Native Peoples or Middle Eastern People and it disgusts me to no end.

 

[Infanteer]

I was just re-reading many of the posts here and I am shocked and apalled at the amount of racism that many of the people with whom I serve are showing. Many people will say that they are not racist at all and use lines like " Im not racist my best friend is (place any ethnic group here)". I also find that in this country and most of North America it is okay to be racist as long as you are talking about Native Peoples or Middle Eastern People and it disgusts me to no end.

I don't think it is racism per se (ie: I hate X), more it is a degree of frustration regarding a very real problem.

Many non-Native Canadians see drunks and beggers, and wonder why, with all the money and energy put into the issue that there is still problems.  That they get angry about it (and resort to the "Indian" cliche) does not surprise me.

It's on the other side as well - many Natives are pissed about how their community has ended up and see non-Natives as basically going on as if they don't give a shit.  That they get angry about it (and resort to the "Stupid White Man" cliche) does not surprise me.

I'll be completely honest and say that it is a two way street here ("Indians get everything handed to them" or "You're just doing this because I am an Indian", to name a few).

So, be careful about throwing around the racism card - I sense that the issue here and now is more about anger and frustration then it is about hatred and bigotry.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>many Natives are pissed about how their community has ended up and see non-Natives as basically going on as if they don't give a crap.

At this point in time, non-Natives are being asked to butt out and let the Natives solve their own problem in their own way.  There remain plenty of mistakes to be made, but ownership of the problem by the afflicted is often a prerequisite for success.  I doubt everything will be resolved in a generation or even two.  I think the major problem remains unaddressed - too much time on too many hands.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Natives in Canada are given more oppourtunities than another Canadian out there, is that a racist statement?  Or a Fact?  I would tell anyone who wanted my loonie to get bent, it just so happens that I have yet to encounter caucasian in that parking lot.  98% of Canadians have to work to send thier kids school, and then there is 2% of the population that is given every oppourtunity and they usually don't make the most of it.  Meaning that the only thing holding you back is YOU. 

We use race all the time to describe people, watch the evening news and you will hear all kinds of descriptions for criminals is that racist?

You bet I am a little angry at the whole subject, because I have to work my butt off for what I have, and when I drive through town and see new houses that are beat to crap, and having to save for my kids future, knowing that there are others out there who don't have to work as hard or expect it, because this was their land..........................  It won't last forever, as eventually more people will get fed up, especially as more immigrants come to the country, laws change, treaties can and will change, block all the roads you want. 
I still beleive that any immigrant to this country after the treaty was signed shouldn't have to pay anything towards the native treaties.  The numbers are there, higher pregnancy rates, higher rate of drug & Alcohol abuse, higher imprisionment rates.  Are all those a result of racisim?  No they are a result of leaders in the communities, not solving the problem locally.  You can't expect Ottawa to step in when your tribal leaders aren't there to back it up.  Again Cowichan Tribes is a prime example, the money stays up top and doesn't filter down.  Does it make sense to have a select few living the good life while over 50% of YOUR tribe are living below the poverty line?  But I am sure that I am just being a racist for pointing all this out....... The numbers are there, and there is a problem.

 

[onewingwonder]

Sub_Guy,

again,a thoroughly racist post. Are you a racist? I don't know, as I don't know you. But, putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4, I would say absolutely.

Natives in Canada are given more oppourtunities than another Canadian out there, is that a racist statement?   Or a Fact?

Apparently you have personal experience, could you please enlighten me? However, I have noticed that although you are quick to post "statistics", I see no sources, nor have I seen any answers to questions asked of you and therefore, expect none to be forthcoming.

watch the evening news and you will hear all kinds of descriptions for criminals is that racist?

Depends on the context, now doesn't it?

and when I drive through town and see new houses that are beat to crap, and having to save for my kids future, knowing that there are others out there who don't have to work as hard or expect it, because this was their land

This is, unfortunately, an undeniable fact. In many communities there is no pride of ownership. Know why that is? Because the people do not own their own homes, in most cases. They belong to the Government. But of course, this doesn't occur with non-aboriginal communities, correct?

treaties can and will change, block all the roads you want

Again, true. Treaties have changed, with the assistance of the learned ladies and gentlemen of the Supreme Court, they have been strengthened in favour of aboriginal people. The reason? Because, for the most part, aboriginal leaders of the time signed Treaties in good faith whereas, again for the most part, colonial representatives were acting in anything but good faith. And no doubt if a road gets blocked you will volunteer to help round up the pesky, insubordinate Injuns won't you.

the money stays up top and doesn't filter down

unlike with "Canadian" politics you mean?

But I am sure that I am just being a racist for pointing all this out....... The numbers are there, and there is a problem.

As a matter of fact, you are quite correct...on both points.

98% of Canadians have to work to send thier kids school

Really? Considering your spelling and grammar, can I assume that you were not one of them who was sent? If you would like, I could send some of my tax dollars your way. It would be my pleasure...honest.

The term to remember here, ladies and gentlemen, is "institutionalization". If you call a person crap, lock them up, continue to call them crap, treat them as incompetant fools, withold even the basic human rights afforded to all others(religion, language, freedom of movement, freedom of speech, the right to own property, CITIZENSHIP, the right to VOTE etc),   including new immigrants, then suddenly get the galloping guilts, throw money at the situation (while continuing the previous treatment) the outcome becomes obvious. Not being able to come up with a more appropriate (and less derogatory) analogy, I will use the following: what you get is the inmates running the asylum.

As was pointed out a few posts ago (by Brad Sallows), people in such dire straits do NOT want outside help. It only causes more problems. You (aimed directly at Sub_Guy) have not LIVED the problem. You are on the outside looking in saying "TSK, TSK Martha, didn't I tell you they were incapable of doing anything right".

What it comes down to, Sub_Guy, is that YOU are perpetuating the myth that it is the abusee's fault, and not the abuser. Until that thought process changes, whether with you or government, the situation will never change.

Oh...and buddy...can you spare a toonie? :-*

Infanteer,

So, be careful about throwing around the racism card - I sense that the issue here and now is more about anger and frustration then it is about hatred and bigotry.

In many cases this may be true. In the case of the above, I fear it is not. My apologies to you however, if you feel offended in any way.

 

[camochick]

I agree with most of your posts onewingwonder, but it seems that you are quick to say that the aboriginal population has nothing to do with their current situation. Yes, the government has and is screwing up, so are the bands who are mismanaging the money they are given. People have to help themselves as well, it's easy to whine about the government or the white man keeping you down but there is a responsibility on the individual to want to help themselves.
    I can understand why sub_guy is so frustrated. I am constantly harrassed in my neighborhood for money and smokes, heck i even got chased by a few natives cause I wouldnt give them money. But I also see the other side of things so I am not going to judge everyone by the few I have had problems with. I think there is a definate call to better educate people about the native population and the life for on reserve and off reserve peoples.