The Canadian Airborne Regiment, 1968-1995 (merged)

[McG]

The government acted within its prerogative when it disband the CAR.  The government was not accountable to the CAR, it was accountable to the Canadian public as a whole.  If the decision was bad then an apology may be owed to all Canadians for the decision, but not just to members of the Regt.

Collectively, the reputation of every member of the regiment was dragged through the mud by politicians and the media that failed to identify failings in individuals and labeled the whole group.  For that, an apology would not be unwarranted.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Collectively, the reputation of members of the regiment was dragged through the mud by politicians and the media that failed to identify failings in individuals and labeled the whole group.  For that, an apology would not be unwarranted.

I agree with the stuff I didn't just quote, but wanted to respond to this also.

If Granatstein and Bercuson are to be believed, the regiment had no business being employed in the mission it was on in the first place.  I understand they did good things despite a lot of logistical handicaps.  The CAR's only real combat operation, if memory serves, was in the early days of Cyprus, no, where they performed very well - and in a role they were suited for.

That still doesn't excuse the breaches of discipline that occurred.  How much can you really attribute to "bad apples" without at the least unwilling tolerance?

If nobody really saw the murders coming, had no idea things could progress that far - that is fine.  So how would they prevent it from happening again, that being the case, if the buildup was invisible?

 

[McG]

Bercuson also describes that it was leadership well above the level of the CAR that decided to send the regiment anyway, and that there were efforts being made to turn things around both before and after the incident.  However, several individuals in all levels of the CoC screwing up does not equal to every member of the regiment.

 

[Paul Gagnon]

Not only does the Airborne Regiment deserve an apology but the entire Canadian Forces deserves an apology. However I believe that the apology needs to come not only from the Government of Canada but also from Gen. de Chastelain who did not have the fortitude to discipline the members of the officer corps who protected their own during the inquiry and pinned the blame for the fiasco in Somalia on junior NCOs.

The disbanding was a huge blow to the morale of everyone in the military. It painted us all with the same brush and that stain is still there.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The government acted within its prerogative when it disband the CAR.  The government was not accountable to the CAR, it was accountable to the Canadian public as a whole.  If the decision was bad then an apology may be owed to all Canadians for the decision, but not just to members of the Regt.

You are partly right. There was a "special relationship" between the CAR and the government of the day created by the Somalia inquiry and the various ongoing investigations.

From what I observed on the documentary which prompted the initial post in the thread, it is inevitable that we will learn Somalia and the hazings cannot be as closely linked to the disbandment as some would like us to believe.  Thus, I truly believe Kendall when he says "This issue is not over ..." As more people "in the know" retire and have the requisite temporal distance away from the government, more will come out which should have went to the board of inquiry. IMHO, we will learn that not everything was shredded, or handed over....  

The disbandment cast a premature verdict and stained the reputations on many persons who had nothing to do with Somalia. It would appear the CAR under new management had transformed itself in record time, but sadly to no avail.

Incidentally, there is nothing owed by the government to an indeterminable class* of persons such as "all Canadians." I realize that I have used the words myself in earlier posts, it was lazy language, and I shouldn't have done so.  The "government" owes a duty of care to the Queen to Parliament and the Courts. Parliament owes allegiance to the Queen, and a duty of care to the constituents to each riding. Parliament owes no deference to the government or the courts.   

I could have sworn some posts in this thread have dissappeared.

* not "un-determinable"

 

[tomahawk6]

Perhaps disbanding the unit was a way to use the mistakes made in Somalia to reduce the size of the Army ?
It would have been easy to relieve the CAR commander and assign a new commander to shake the regiment up.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Well-stated Whiskey, and yes, some posts were moved to the Command Post for a sober rethinking!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Perhaps disbanding the unit was a way to use the mistakes made in Somalia to reduce the size of the Army ?
It would have been easy to relieve the CAR commander and assign a new commander to shake the regiment up.

I thought one of the problems was that they DID have a new CO, just before deployment.

 

[mo-litia]

Perhaps disbanding the unit was a way to use the mistakes made in Somalia to reduce the size of the Army ?
It would have been easy to relieve the CAR commander and assign a new commander to shake the regiment up.

Maybe . . . I was once told by an old soldier that the defence budget for Canada used to be split roughly into quarters: one quarter each for the army, navy and airforce, and a quarter to fund the Airborne Regiment.

Any truth to this??

IMO, if it is true this was a likely a major factor in our misgovernment's decision to disband this unit.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Any truth to this??

Pretty expensive "regiment." It's not true by any stretch of the imagination. Cheers.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Well-stated Whiskey, and yes, some posts were moved to the Command Post for a sober rethinking!

LOL, Command Post or W.O. Armbuster's drill shed?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Michael Dorosh,
Here's another analogy - on your basic, if one of the troops in the platoon was undisciplined (not slow, stupid or not able to keep up, but deliberately undisciplined) - did the platoon warrant ever punish the entire platoon until the individual in question learned to tow the line?

So the CAR had a few bad apples.  Why did the Regiment tolerate them?  Why blame the government for their own inability to reign in their own soldiers?


....well Michael, I guess you have a crystal ball that would tell you that, say your unit got the call tonight to run a prison for the forseeable future, as the guards had walked out,  which members of your unit would be able to pull it off and which ones would take liberties?......no thats right they would all be fine or you wouldn't tolerate them.....heres a news flash,...not everybody acts the way they are supposed too.

 

[2 Cdo]

The main point is that Col Kenward was left waiting by a petty Collenette, who would not entertain any argument that was pro-CAR. When Col Kenward took over command he immediately started to clean house. In very short order any remaining "bad apples" were gone! They(the government) disbanded the Regiment and only then commenced an inquiry. Kind of like sentencing a criminal and then holding his trial!
Dorosh, you seem extremely agitated by the mere gesture of an apology, I only ask what exactly triggered your attitude towards the airborne? Jealousy, failed your jump course? I'm just curious.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"failed your jump course?"
Oh snap.  Tell you didn't just say that.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Dorosh, you seem extremely agitated by the mere gesture of an apology, I only ask what exactly triggered your attitude towards the airborne? Jealousy, failed your jump course? I'm just curious.

I find it not only childish but also self-defeating as far as the intended aims of this site go for professional soldiers to come into a public forum (one that has spent so much time in the last two years (successfully, I think) pulling itself out of a gutter formed by ninja-snipers and hotheads) and whine and cry about the same government they've pledged their lives to defend.  Makes the entire site look like a bunch of petulant, spoiled sissies.  The moderators on this board spend an inordinate amount of time seperating the wheat from the chaff, trying to present the Forces, and the individuals that inhabit the Army, in the best light.  Irrational, emotional, visceral anti-government rants are something I expect to read in the pages of Espirit de Corps. 

This forum has grown from one that had once been taken over by Army cadets, dullards, and the hard to get along with, and has really blossomed - thanks in large part to the moderation - into something very useful, entertaining, and in my opinion, something for Mike Bobbitt and all involved to be very proud of.  We've also gotten lots of media attention in the last little while and I expect that to continue. 

"God give me the strength to change the things I can, accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Feel free to take your speculation about my own career and leave them out of this conversation as they are irrelevant, and technically against forum posting guidelines.

Does that make it clear enough for you?  Questioning government policy is one thing, and it is a free country.  But making bizarre demands that are beyond your comprehension to understand why they can't be fulfilled, or beyond the ability of most posters to understand the depth of passion behind your own reasoning (few of us, as I no doubt you love to remind people, served in the CAR), simply makes us all look bad and will in the end be bad for the site, as good posters leave for fear of being associated with anti-government types shooting their mouth off in a seemingly consequence free environment.  This site was almost like that once, the staff have resolved not to let that happen again.

See Michael O'Leary's brilliant post on topics that keep repeating themselves without resolution.

 

[2 Cdo]

How are my demands bizarre? In case you missed the sarcasm of the "failed your jump course" remark all I was trying to understand is why you seem to have an almost irrational dislike for the Airborne Regiment. You then insult me with comments that state "beyond your comprehension to understand " Without any mention of your career the question still stands. Why do you seem to harbour an intense dislike for the Airborne?
As for your comment about serving in the CAR, NOWHERE do I ever make any remarks regarding service in the Airborne, nor have I ever insulted anyones else service! You on the other hand don't seem to have any problems with insulting others!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

How are my demands bizarre?

I've answered that already and don't see it in the board's interests to reiterate.  Let's agree to disagree.

In case you missed the sarcasm of the "failed your jump course" remark all I was trying to understand is why you seem to have an almost irrational dislike for the Airborne Regiment.

Based on what?  My position is that the government doesn't "owe" anyone an apology, CAR included. The CAR doesn't exist anymore, so like or dislike is irrelevant.  I don't necessarily agree disbanding was the answer, but would have liked to seen an intelligent discussion of why it occurred.  We didn't get that, did we?

You then insult me with comments that state "beyond your comprehension to understand "

What insult?  If you comprehended, you wouldn't have had to ask twice, as you just did.  There are lots of things beyond my comprehension, I like to think I admit to them. No insult if it is true.

Without any mention of your career the question still stands. Why do you seem to harbour an intense dislike for the Airborne?
As for your comment about serving in the CAR, NOWHERE do I ever make any remarks regarding service in the Airborne, nor have I ever insulted anyones else service!

You are correct, that was Jungle, I certainly apologize if it appeared I was accusing you of doing that, as you most certainly did not.

You on the other hand don't seem to have any problems with insulting others!

Again, that was not my intent.

As Capt. O'Leary points out in his other post (which I can't locate - tried to post the URL for you), perhaps this topic has outlived its usefulness?

 

[Kirkhill]

the same government they've pledged their lives to defend

Michael:

I think this comment is a little off base.  And actually it indicates a serious problem in the structure of the CF and the Canadian Government. 

I believe the "Pledge" that CF members are required to give is to "Her Majesty ........".  Now, us Monarchists assume that she represents the State and the we the people of the State (regardless of how many Nations may be involved), and so by Pledging allegiance to her we are pledging ourselves to act at Her Command and assuming that she will always act in the best interest of the State.  An iffy proposition, even for a Monarchist.  But that is the pledge.

Now many people will find many reasons to join the CF.  I would venture that protecting Her Majesty isn't on the top ten list for most Canadians.  However protecting Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Steven Harper ( Or God forbid Jack Layton) probably isn't in the offing either.

In the absence of a firm contract and oath that people actually believe (Gawd some folks are going to have a field day with this one) I think that most Canadians that join, and join not just for the job, join in order to defend their Nation (regardless of how you define that).  The Government administers the nation.  The Political Government, as opposed to the Civil Authority or Bureaucracy, is a temporary agency that can be hired and fired according to the whims of the Nation.  The Nation stands and most people relate to their family, friends and (Country-Nation-State), that is what they are signing up for.

Cheers.

 

[OatmealSavage]

This post is meant to be a slap on the back of the head. Dorosh is right. The government owes you three hots and a cot, that's it. As a certain PPCLI Platoon Comd once said "shut up and do your f***ing job". Politicians and senior officers in Canada have always engaged in arsecovering, and they always will. Get used to it. If you don't like the way you are being treated get out and get a union job.

The entire regiment slept or drank beer while a kid was getting tortured to death. Members saw it and did nothing. The entire regiment shares the guilt even more than they share battle honours from a war that took place before they were born. The proud history and traditions were not enough to prevent this disgrace, so what are they worth? Maybe the regiment should have been given a hundred-year dishonour to wear on their uniforms. I heard the NSaskR uniform includes a noose shaped lanyard, representing some members who were hung for rape in the Great War. Maybe a Yellow patch or cockle worn behind the cap badge. Most important, Kenward should have been given his bowler hat, along with every supervisor in the chain of command down to Matchee. But disbandment works too. Nothing will focus the mind like a hanging.

How many battalions have been eliminated from the Canadian Order of Battle in history? How many Canadian units have been threatened with disbandment because their retention and recruitment efforts suck? How many colours are laid up in churches across the Commonwealth? Quite a few I think -Most with more history than the airborne, and they didn't murder anybody, and they ate no feces. If the gov't feels the need to reap a peace dividend and make some people or units redundant that's their responsibility. If they can enforce discipline in their army with the same act that is efficiency. Now everybody knows there is a huge penalty for a CO who fails to supervise.

All those lawn darts went back to their regiments and new jump companies anyway, the weapons are in stores, and the hercs are still available, so all you need is workup training to recreate the capability that was lost. 3VP did just fine in Afghanistan, unless the entire battalion were to jump in, little would be added by the airborne.

I am bitter that I never got to serve with the airborne regiment. I am also entirely certain that if I had stuck my head in the bunker I would have sorted Matchee out. No one did. No one, from Private to Colonel and it makes me want to puke.

 

[chriscalow]

.

The entire regiment slept or drank beer while a kid was getting tortured to death. Members saw it and did nothing.

I think that's a bit out of line buddy,  you may or may not have a point, and god knows I don't agree with it, but I think that is pushing it just a little bit, no?