Religious Discussion

[Dare]

In neither of those scriptures does Jesus claim to be YHWH or
god himself. He said he was "the son of god". It is you that imply
that when he said "I am gods' son" that he is secretly saying "I am
part of a Trinity, I am 1/3 of god. My part of the Trinity is refered to
as The Son."

I disagree with that interpretation. Many christians do.

Jesus only claimed to be the son of god. I am not my father, even if
my father taught me everything I know, and if I was a perfect
reflection of my fathers personality I would still not "be" my father.

This is not the hardest part of Christianity to grasp, its the hardest part
of "your interpretation of" Christianity to grasp. Big difference.

Yes, the gospel of Matthew is fairly clear to me. Jesus plainly says many times that he is not God. The trinity is quite illogical. But then, so is weeping in front of a pizza that looks vaguely like Mary.

 

[Dare]

Ok, that is your right. What is 'many Christians'? I find it hard to believe that 'many' Chirstians don't believe in the Trinity. I will try and find biblical references to back my assertionn that He is God, but I don't have a bible right now. To be honest, I have never heard a Christian state that Christ is not God, so you caught me off guard. Re:references - I am stuck with the Net, which is not that helpful. I recal a passage that reads something like 'I and the father are one. The Son is not above the Father, and the Father is not above the Son.' and 'one cannot come to the Father but through me.' Again, I will try and look it up, but it will have to wait. If there is anyone who knows where it is, please post it.

So, if He is not part of the Trinity, then what role did he play on the cross? Spiritualy speaking, of course.

I would say that it is correct that most Christians do, by implication of being Catholic, believe in a trinity. That being said, most Catholics I know are very astute on the dogma/rituals over the content of the bible (which, of course, is just a personal sampling. Reasults May Vary.)

 

[larry Strong]

I was just going off of the "Ask Jeeves" answers to the defiinitions.

 

[Dare]

I was just going off of the "Ask Jeeves" answers to the defiinitions.

Both the definition of Cult and Religion are somewhat vague (as they both are generally started by charasmatic authoritarian leaders). Some cults call other religions cults, just as some religions call other religions cults. It is my belief that when a religion slides into cult territory, it is through a few things. 1) The takeover of domestic life by the leader. 2) The inability to question authority. 3) The micromanagement of day to day tasks. 4) Well known methods of mind control being used. 5) The threat/application of punishment to a disbeliever. 6) The threat/application of punishment to one who wishes to leave. 7) The use of intimidation (physical or psychological) to keep their followers in line. 8 ) The inability of the followers to make an independent choice without consulting authorities.

And, until God beams down and sends us the holy email/righteous fury, it's interpretive..

"...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion;and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect;but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer

 

[larry Strong]

OK here's Webster's then:

2 entries found for cult.
To select an entry, click on it.
  cultcargo cult 

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion


One entry found for religion.


Main Entry: re ·li ·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re ·li ·gion ·less adjective 

 

[neuromancer]

I would have said all of christanity believes in the Trinity.  Hence the Christ part.
But saying 'MANY' christian denominations do not believe.. I have to put an end to that.
There might be one or two... that i'm not aware of.. but MANY?  Sorry. 

The *majority* of christians do believe the trinity, but there are many who do not.

For example, Unitarians, Mormons, JW's, Doukhobors, and some Pentecostals.
Those are quite a few people! Even though there are probably more Catholics in
the world then all of those groups put together!

Other notable groups that do not believe in the trinity are Jews and Muslims.

(Please note, I am not affiliated with any of those religions)

Here is a bigger list of Non-trinitarian groups

    * American Unitarian Conference
    * The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church; see also Mormon)
    * Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship
    * Magi Network
    * Church of Christ, Scientist
    * Oneness Pentecostals
    * Jehovah's Witnesses
    * Unification Church
    * Christadelphians
    * Polish Brethren
    * Doukhobors
    * Molokan
    * The Way International
    * Iglesia ni Cristo


A few notable Christians who rejected the Trinity Doctrine:

    * Arius
    * Miguel Servet, persecuted by both the Spanish Inquisition and Jean Calvin.
    * Isaac Newton
    * John Locke
    * Thomas Jefferson
    * Joseph Priestley
    * James Madison
    * John Biddle
    * Francis David
    * James Martineau
    * Ludwig Haetzer
    * Fausto Paolo Sozzini
    * Neville Chamberlain
    * Robert Hibbert
    * Jonathan Mayhew
    * Ralph Waldo Emerson

This info was taken from wikipedia Here

 

[Trinity]

DAMN.... i stand corrected...

Then again a most of those groups aren't mainline denominations
or large... with exception of mormons and Jehovahs. 

 

[Trinity]

Oh come now. Built in each of the three main Abrahamic religions are things that each of the others find problematic or offensive. Preaching ones own religion can prove to be an attack on another religion.

Preaching on one's religion can be an attack on anothers IF YOU make it that way.  I don't believe in the
'MARY mother of GOD' hype that the Catholics do, but I don't attack them over it.  You may not agree
with what I preach, but it doesn't mean its attacking YOUR way of life.  I'm not asking you to SHUN other
people or damn them and it is IRRESPONSIBLE for any preacher to do so. 

Any religion worthy of it's salt should be able to provide a reasonable defense, rather than passing silly laws that make critisizing it illegal or making a sweeping suggestion such as that.

I didn't realize I passed a silly law critizing and making it illegal to make any suggestion.....

What I am saying is.... If you start OPENLY attacking another religion, don't be suprised or upset if others
start doing it to you.  As you say, any religion worth salt doesn't NEED to attack anothers religion because
it should be obvious and self sustaining on its own merits.

BeadWidow was attacking Islam saying it had pagen roots.  By doing so (and proclaiming to be christian)
it allowed others to root through the christian heritage and low and behold.. gee we have pagen roots too....
So by his own argument, his own religion (christianity) is now in doubt.

It has nothing to do if one's religion can hold 'salt'or not.  And from a scientific point.. they can't because
the one element that can't be measured is FAITH, which fills in the gaps for which we cannot explain, gaps
which 'hold salt'....

 

[Dare]

Preaching on one's religion can be an attack on anothers IF YOU make it that way.  I don't believe in the
'MARY mother of GOD' hype that the Catholics do, but I don't attack them over it.  You may not agree
with what I preach, but it doesn't mean its attacking YOUR way of life.  I'm not asking you to SHUN other
people or darn them and it is IRRESPONSIBLE for any preacher to do so. 

What if the religion dictates shunning people? What if the religion dictates attacks on another religion?

I didn't realize I passed a silly law critizing and making it illegal to make any suggestion.....

Obviously, this was not referring to you personally.

What I am saying is.... If you start OPENLY attacking another religion, don't be suprised or upset if others
start doing it to you.  As you say, any religion worth salt doesn't NEED to attack anothers religion because
it should be obvious and self sustaining on its own merits.

That's a point I will return to when I get home later, but good riposte.

BeadWidow was attacking Islam saying it had pagen roots.  By doing so (and proclaiming to be christian)
it allowed others to root through the christian heritage and low and behold.. gee we have pagen roots too....
So by his own argument, his own religion (christianity) is now in doubt.

Indeed. I agree with that assessment.

It has nothing to do if one's religion can hold 'salt'or not.  And from a scientific point.. they can't because
the one element that can't be measured is FAITH, which fills in the gaps for which we cannot explain, gaps
which 'hold salt'....

I wish I had time for that, but the 9AM bell dings. I'll be back.

 

[Trinity]

What if the religion dictates shunning people? What if the religion dictates attacks on another religion?

VERY good question.  If its a smaller religion its usually ignored.  But take this case for example.

http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt

This stirs hate.  You can bet this has been seen world wide thanks to the media. 

How do we stop the hateful ministers from doing this?  I have no idea.  I know two things
for certain.... Love thy God and Love they neighbour as thyself.  I think this signs violates both
serving god and thy neighbour.

As I said in a PM to you (DARE), I'm not sure if any religion can hold 'salt' without faith.
On its own merits, I could probably make a case against any religion or denomintion.  Religion
isn't perfect but its all we have for spiritual needs.  The church gets bogged down in money
and politics. 

Gods love and way for us is perfect.
Its when humans try to interpret that and do whats right is when it gets screwed up.  Somehow
I think god can account for the differences in this crazy system.

 

[neuromancer]

http://www.thedigitalcourier.com/articles/2005/05/24/news/news01.txt

This stirs hate.  You can bet this has been seen world wide thanks to the media. 

Gods love and way for us is perfect.
Its when humans try to interpret that and do whats right is when it gets screwed up.  Somehow
I think god can account for the differences in this crazy system.

I dunno man..

Ok, this is according to my interpretation of the
scriptures, but there are several times in the Bible
when God became so angry with the Jews that he stoped
listening to their prayers, there are other times when
he was so angry that he was ready to wipe them from
the earth.

Some differences just cant be accounted for, and I think
saying "flush the koran" is  probably one of them.

..but thats just "how I feel"(tm)

 

[LF(CMO)]

APOSTLES CREED

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
    the Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
    and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
    whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting.

Amen.
 

*The word "catholic" refers not necessarily to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What church you attend, or if you even attend a church, is not what determines if you are a Christian    If you believe the above you are a CHRISTIAN.  If you cannot accept it, You are not a CHRISTIAN.  The 'Apostles Creed' has been the universally accepted summation of Christian belief since the time of the Apostles, hence the 'Apostles Creed'.

 

[neuromancer]

If you believe the above you are a CHRISTIAN.  If you cannot accept it, You are not a CHRISTIAN.

I think its up to God to decide who is who, and what is what.

Remember that science has proven that we all come from the same genetic stock if you
trace it back far enough, so in a way we are all just one big family.

Bottom line, play nice with your brothers and sisters. Nobody likes to be labeled.
;D

 

[Infanteer]

If you believe the above you are a CHRISTIAN.   If you cannot accept it, You are not a CHRISTIAN.   The 'Apostles Creed' has been the universally accepted summation of Christian belief since the time of the Apostles, hence the 'Apostles Creed'.

Of course, religion evolves and faith can be a highly personal and interpretive matter.  I am not sure you have some ability to declare who is Christian and who is not (considering there are over a billion out there); people tried doing that when Martin Luther nailed the Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the Wittenburg Church.

 

[Trinity]

There are some denominations that do not believe in the Apostles creed
yet consider themselves christian.

I've been meaning to post this for a while..  This is the MOST useful link
in the world (but i might be biased)


http://www.dnd.ca/hr/religions/engraph/religions_toc_e.asp?flag=No

The accepted religions of the Canadian Forces, their beliefs and the required needs of
the soldiers.  Chaplains often use this as a reference when sticky situations come up. This
should provide enough information to allow a level playing field of discussion when it comes
to the various denominations.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Of course, religion evolves and faith can be a highly personal and interpretive matter.

There are all powerful, creative forces (four* of them, actually, as far as I know) which have made all that is, seen and unseen.   These creators have given us a universe, time, life and curiosity, and the greatest of these is curiosity.

The creators have also given us a language through which we might discern their ways: mathematics.   Thus far we have seem to have decoded two words: uncertainty and BANG!

Closer to home: don't forget to honour the ancestors; one belief is just as true as another.

----------

* Electromagentic, gravity, strong nuclear and weak nuclear â “ and there may be more or fewer, which will become evident as we learn the language of the creators. (See: e.g Gross, et al and quantum chromodynamics and Weinberg et al and the electroweak force, and it goes on and on and on, ad infinitum.)

----------

Edit: In addition, I agree with Acorn on the first page; we shouldn't discuss religion in the mess - it (eschewing talk about sex (straight or gay) religion and politics) is an old custom with good roots.

 

[LF(CMO)]

"I think its up to God to decide who is who, and what is what"

Absolutely, no question on the above!

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

There are some denominations that do not believe in the Apostles creed
yet consider themselves Christian.

I've been meaning to post this for a while..   This is the MOST useful link
in the world (but i might be biased)


http://www.dnd.ca/hr/religions/engraph/religions_toc_e.asp?flag=No

The accepted religions of the Canadian Forces, their beliefs and the required needs of
the soldiers.   Chaplains often use this as a reference when sticky situations come up. This
should provide enough information to allow a level playing field of discussion when it comes
to the various denominations.

    I am an Asatru, a norse pagan.  While we may not have made the CF accepted list, those of us who share the faith and have followed the service of arms into the CF seem to have done OK.  I have always found that the greatest hatreds in religion are spawned between the closest related faiths.  As an outsider, I have watched with amusement (in Canada) or profound disgust (the many wonderful places the CF sends us overseas), the way faiths so close in doctrine happily savage each other, while largely ignoring those that hold fundamental differences.  Irish Catholic/Protestant, the Sunni/Shiite,  the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, the Christian/Muslim (in so many places) and the Hindhu/Sikh.  The differences that seem worth killing for, are usually not grasped well enough by the street level advocate of the conflict for them to explain (beyond the fact that "we are right and they are wrong, and deserve what we do to them").  In my faith, each is judged by their own actions (or innactions), and while I hold my gods to be true, I do not expect or demand that others beleive as I do.  I don't care what faith you follow, I judge you by what you do.  If your "invisible man in the sky" tells you to behave honourably, good enough; I could care less what you call him/her/them.  If your "invisible man in the sky" tells you to kill children, you will be in my gunsights shortly; again I don't care what you call whatever you worship, only what actions you use him to justify.

 

[Infanteer]

Edit: In addition, I agree with Acorn on the first page; we shouldn't discuss religion in the mess - it (eschewing talk about sex (straight or gay) religion and politics) is an old custom with good roots.

Yes, but as I said when I split this thread, I'm willing to let the topic run as long as it remains educational for all involved - there are some people well read in their faiths here and I've learned a bit from everyone while reading.  As I said earlier, the minute it goes personal, I'll lock it.

 

[Infanteer]

That list that Trinity provides is fascinating - it is a really nice good for "Comparative Religiosity" (is that a word?).

Anywise, I found this odd - the CF actively recognizes Rastafarianism (I am assuming that there is a code for it on the ID disks).   Under the description of the religion, it states:

They believe that the white race, or â Å“Babylon,â ? is inferior and that its members will eventually become the slaves of Rastafarians.

So, doesn't this conflict with the CF policy Zero-Tolerance policy regarding Racism that every applicant signs during the recruiting process?