Religious Discussion

[combat_medic]

Bead: For you to claim yourself as a Christian, do you obeserve Passover, Purim? Jesus did - he even used Hanukah as an example to his followers about him being the light of the world. While in the Bible he struck down the "old law", he still observed all the holy days, celebrated the 'Jewish' Saturday Sabbath, and observed passover among other observances. He was circumcized and probably observed kosher laws as well. There are a number of Christian denominations who still observe these holidays and practices in deference to Jesus, and claim that those who do not are not truly Christian.

People have argued that Christianity is pagan in that it has the 3-in-1 concept of God and the Trinity. One could argue that Catholocism practices paganism and idolotry in its worship of Mary the mother, and praying to Catholic Saints.

Christmas trees, the Easter bunny, and the vast majority of supposedly "Christian" holidays fall (often intentionally) on traditionally pagan celebrations. It's widely believed that the celebration of Christ's birth was moved to December 25th in order to co-incide with the pagan holiday of the Winter Solstice.

Religion is not now, nor has ever been, a matter of black and white. Depite your claims to be a Christian, there are others who will make the same claim and try to tell you that you are not, because you do _____ or don't do _______. Religion is about faith. If you choose to believe in something, and it brings you fulfillment, and it's what you believe in your heart is right FOR YOU, then you should follow it. What is right for you, is not right for everybody. There are as many different religious practices in the world as stars in the sky, and just because you choose not to believe in them, doesn't make them wrong.

 

[dutchie]

Bead: For you to claim yourself as a Christian, do you observe Passover, Purim? Jesus did - he even used Hanukah as an example to his followers about him being the light of the world. While in the Bible he struck down the "old law", he still observed all the holy days, celebrated the 'Jewish' Saturday Sabbath, and observed passover among other observances. He was circumcized and probably observed kosher laws as well. There are a number of Christian denominations who still observe these holidays and practices in deference to Jesus, and claim that those who do not are not truly Christian.

There was no such thing as Christianity at that time, as Christ had not fulfilled the prophecies yet (completely). How could Christ celebrate Christ? Also, Christ was meant to fulfill Jewish prophesies, and was a Jew, so of course he participated in Jewish rites. How could he even claim to be the Messiah Jews were waiting for if he was not a practicing Jew? What else could he do?

To say that Christians should or even could participate in Jewish celebrations as a means of practicing their faith is not really accurate. Yes, one could recognize Hanukkah as a Christian, but they would not be fulfilling God's wishes. There is a New Covenant, and the adherence to that is God's wish.....if you are Christian.

 

[combat_medic]

I'm not saying that is the "One True Wayâ„¢" of celebrating Christianity, but there are denominations that believe it is. When, in the Old Testament, God gave his people the seven annual feasts, he instructed that they were to be celebrated forever. And, when Christ struck down the old law, refused to participate in animal sacrifice, follow the "cleanliness" laws from Leviticus and disobeyed other quintissential "Jewish" traditions, he still followed these old observances. Did he do this out of habit, or out of deference to God and upholding what he thought was God's wishes? Subject to interpretation, as is everything.

What I'm trying to point out is that what is right for one is not right for everybody, and that doesn't make anybody wrong. Christians themselves have thousands of different traditions, observances, feasts, and beliefs. Just because they're different, doesn't mean they're wrong, anymore than being Muslim or Jewish is wrong.

To say that Christians should or even could participate in Jewish celebrations as a means of practicing their faith is not really accurate. Yes, one could recognize Hanukkah as a Christian, but they would not be fulfilling God's wishes.

No, it's one group's interpretation of what they think God's wishes are. To claim that any particular group is certain of what God's wishes are is rather presumptuous. Billions of people practice entirely contradictory observances and practices because they think they are upholding God's wishes. It's about having an open mind, and being inclusive with your beliefs, rather than exclusive, which is, in my opinion, what Bead doesn't realize.

 

[muskrat89]

I think combat_medic has nailed it. A Priest once told me that "there can be a lot of roads going up the sides of a mountain, that all end up in the same place". A belief in any religion requires faith. If it was all black & white, cut and dried, and scientifically infallible, then there would be no requirement for faith. If that was the case, you and I wouldn't have to "earn" anything, nor exercise our freedom of choice.

I believe that God has allowed for different religions (different "spins" on essentially the same themes) so in fact, the opportunity would be presented (and appealing) to the largest possible amount of humans. Imagine if TV programming was limited to one program, or one channel - how many would choose to buy a TV set? Most of the religions that I am familiar with focus on/towards an all-powerful deity/creator - and instill in their followers rules to live by. These rules seem to be remarkably similar. Ironically, it seems that "the devil is in the details"...  pun intended

 

[the 48th regulator]

Sorry, it was Peter, not Paul. Peter was asked by to Jesus to be the head of the Church. I will look up some references and post them.

here you go Ceasar

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

cheers

dileas

tess

 

[dutchie]

When, in the Old Testament, God gave his people the seven annual feasts, he instructed that they were to be celebrated forever. And, when Christ struck down the old law, refused to participate in animal sacrifice, follow the "cleanliness" laws from Leviticus and disobeyed other quintissential "Jewish" traditions, he still followed these old observances. Did he do this out of habit, or out of deference to God and upholding what he thought was God's wishes? Subject to interpretation, as is everything.

Ok, I see what you're saying, but consider this. First, some assumptions:

Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, therefore...
Jesus is God, therefore....

When Jesus says to stop observing these things (Jewish Rites), it IS from God, and must be obeyed. Again, the caveat being if you are Christian.

What I'm trying to point out is that what is right for one is not right for everybody, and that doesn't make anybody wrong. Christians themselves have thousands of different traditions, observances, feasts, and beliefs. Just because they're different, doesn't mean they're wrong, anymore than being Muslim or Jewish is wrong.

Of course it's not wrong to be a Muslim, but it is certainly not adhering to Christianity to do so. Adhering to God's command/covenants as stated in the Bible is a requirement however. Note that God includes Jesus.

No, it's one group's interpretation of what they think God's wishes are. To claim that any particular group is certain of what God's wishes are is rather presumptuous.

Well, to be a Christian, you have to believe that you are right, and that Jews and Muslims (as an example) are wrong when it comes to God's wishes. Otherwise, what the heck are you doing being a Christian if you know that Muslims are obeying God's wishes? Now, if you were to make this argument regarding Anglican/Catholic/Baptist/Pentecostal/Etc, that I can agree with.

It's about having an open mind, and being inclusive with your beliefs, rather than exclusive, which is, in my opinion, what Bead doesn't realize.

To a certain extent, yes. But the popular trend of Pluralism is not consistant with Christianity (IMHO). Remember it is not you, I, or anyone else that decides what is acceptable in God's eyes, but it is God that does this. Wanting to include others of another faith as one who will be Saved is just not accurate. Again, the premise being if you are Christian.

I think combat_medic has nailed it. A Priest once told me that "there can be a lot of roads going up the sides of a mountain, that all end up in the same place". A belief in any religion requires faith. If it was all black & white, cut and dried, and scientifically infallible, then there would be no requirement for faith. If that was the case, you and I wouldn't have to "earn" anything, nor exercise our freedom of choice.

I believe that Priest was likely referring to different Christian denominations, not different religions. I challenge anyone to quote a Christian Minister who unequivocaly states that you can enter heaven without being a Christian to the exclusion of all other religions.

If that was the case, you and I wouldn't have to "earn" anything, nor exercise our freedom of choice.

Just a point of note:you could never possible 'earn' your way into heaven. It is only by God's Grace that you could achieve this. The reason why Jesus had to die is because we have a debt of Sin to pay, and we could never fully pay for it. He took on all our sin onto himself, allowing us the possibility to enter Heaven 'clean'. We by rights should pay for our sin by going to h*ll (dang sensor!), but He took it for us so we can go to heaven. Here endeth the sermon.

I believe that God has allowed for different religions (different "spins" on essentially the same themes) so in fact, the opportunity would be presented (and appealing) to the largest possible amount of humans.

Allowed for different religions? Absolutely. Allow those of those religions to enter Heaven? No. Christianity excludes those of other faiths from entering heaven. You can believe what you like, obviously, we do have free will. However, it is not credible to argue that this is correct from a Christian perspective.

These rules seem to be remarkably similar. Ironically, it seems that "the devil is in the details"...   pun intended

You're bang on there, my friend. I think we have discussed in this thread how Islam, Judaism, and Christianity have a common root, therefore, you will find very striking similarities in doctrine. Which thread you follow dictates not only what you believe is true, but also what you believe is untrue.

here you go Ceasar

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

cheers

dileas

tess

Thanks dude. Peter, Paul, I get confused. Ah heck, their all Saints to me!

 

[neuromancer]

No, it's one group's interpretation of what they think God's wishes are. To claim that any particular group is certain of what God's wishes are is rather presumptuous. Billions of people practice entirely contradictory observances and practices because they think they are upholding God's wishes. It's about having an open mind, and being inclusive with your beliefs, rather than exclusive, which is, in my opinion, what Bead doesn't realize.

I dunno, this kind of raises the question "Does god actually REQUIRE anything?"

Or can we just do whatever-the-heck we feel like doing, have a
sincere heart about it and claim that it is "our form of worship" and
win in the end.

(asuming god exists)  :

 

[neuromancer]

Ok, I see what you're saying, but consider this. First, some assumptions:

Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, therefore...
Jesus is God, therefore....

When Jesus says to stop observing these things (Jewish Rites), it IS from God, and must be obeyed. Again, the caveat being if you are Christian.

First of all, where in the scripture does it say "Messiah == God"?
Talk to any jew about that one, or try picking up a bible sometime.

Second, where in the scripture does it say "Jesus == God"?

Third, where in the scripture does Jesus say "stop observing these things"?

Its my understanding that many first century christians still observed
all of the jewish traditions right up until the year 70A.D. at which time
the temple in jerusalem was destroyed by roman legions and christians
came to believe the jewish system no longer was of any merit with god.
Infact if you look at the letters that paul wrote quite often it was concerning
CHRISTIANS who were still practising the jewish traditions and claiming
that you had to be circumcised in the flesh to be saved.

Dont forget that is says in Acts of Apostles that a large number of pharasees became
believers at one point, and also that the early christian congragation was
made up of three groups, Jews, Samaritans, and gentiles.

The Jews stuck to many of their practises, and likewise, as well as many of the gentiles
stuck to their practises even long after becoming "christian". This is why we have
so many pagan practises that have become part of mainstream christianity
today.

Boy oh boy, when you're argument begins with so many asumptions I cant
even be bothered to read the rest of it.

Please learn this; You're interpretation of Christianity is not the ONLY interpretation.

 

[combat_medic]

Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, therefore...
Jesus is God, therefore....

When Jesus says to stop observing these things (Jewish Rites), it IS from God, and must be obeyed. Again, the caveat being if you are Christian.

No, if you believe the New Testament, Jesus is the Son of God, but a part of the trinity. Seperate, but also one (often the most difficult concept of Christianity to grasp). Jesus also does not say to stop observing the seven feasts, and, in fact, observes them himself, despite striking down a great deal of the old practices.

Well, to be a Christian, you have to believe that you are right, and that Jews and Muslims (as an example) are wrong when it comes to God's wishes. Otherwise, what the heck are you doing being a Christian if you know that Muslims are obeying God's wishes? Now, if you were to make this argument regarding Anglican/Catholic/Baptist/Pentecostal/Etc, that I can agree with.

THIS is the problem. The majority of people cannot possibly believe something without admonishing every other possible belief. You can say "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, because that is what I think is right FOR ME." Just because you think you're right doesn't mean that you therefore believe that everyone else is wrong. Again, this is part of the exclusionist tendancies of a lot of organized religion.

Allowed for different religions? Absolutely. Allow those of those religions to enter Heaven? No. Christianity excludes those of other faiths from entering heaven. You can believe what you like, obviously, we do have free will. However, it is not credible to argue that this is correct from a Christian perspective.

Define "Christian Perspective". You have stated that you are Anglican, but you might be surprised at the number of Christian denominations who don't immediately condemn all non-Christians directly to the fiery wrath of hell. Do you also say that you believe that a good person, who helped his fellow man, was kind to his children, faithful to his wife, and lived a good life by all accounts will be consigned to flames of woe for all eternity because he didn't believe in Jesus, or if he never even knew of his existance? Talk about exclusionism! No God that can claim to be loving, benevolant and all-forgiving would do this.

 

[dutchie]

First of all, where in the scripture does it say "Messiah == God"?
Talk to any jew about that one, or try picking up a bible sometime.

Mathew 16:15-17 - "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Mathew 26:63-64 -
But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[a] the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

note: 'Christ' is defined as 'Messiah'.

Second, where in the scripture does it say "Jesus == God"?

See above. Either you accept the above, and the Trinity (God the Son as one part), or you do not. There really is no point in debating it.

Talk to any jew about that one, or try picking up a bible sometime.

Let's keep this civil, shall we? As Infanteer said, once it gets personal, this thread can descend into shite very quickly. Obviously I am speaking from a Christian perspective, and I have been careful about pointing that out when I post.

Ok, I see what you're saying, but consider this. First, some assumptions:
Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, therefore...
Jesus is God, therefore....
When Jesus says to stop observing these things (Jewish Rites), it IS from God, and must be obeyed. Again, the caveat being if you are Christian.

your response:

No, if you believe the New Testament, Jesus is the Son of God, but a part of the trinity. Separate, but also one (often the most difficult concept of Christianity to grasp).  

Exactly. I think we are arguing the same thing here. And yes, the Trinity is very confusing, and it has been described many ways here already.

THIS is the problem. The majority of people cannot possibly believe something without admonishing every other possible belief. You can say "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, because that is what I think is right FOR ME." Just because you think you're right doesn't mean that you therefore believe that everyone else is wrong. Again, this is part of the exclusionist tendancies of a lot of organized religion.

who admonished? I simply stated that if you are Christian, you must believe that the path to Heaven is through Christ, to the exclusion of all other 'paths'. Is this earth shattering news? Or did I not make myself clear before? I am not passing judgement of Muslims, Jews, et all as people, but I am saying that one of us is right, and 2 of us are wrong. Again, you either believe, or you do not.

Do you also say that you believe that a good person, who helped his fellow man, was kind to his children, faithful to his wife, and lived a good life by all accounts will be consigned to flames of woe for all eternity because he didn't believe in Jesus

Yes. The road to heck is paved with good intentions. You can never earn your way into heaven with deeds, to believe that you can is consistent with the Jehovah Witness sect, but not Christianity.

or if he never even knew of his existence?

This is the exception. Babies, for instance, are believed by many denominations of Christianity to go to Heaven without knowing God. If you want biblical references, look it up, but I suspect you believe this as well.

Define "Christian Perspective".

A perspective based in Holy Scripture.

As an aside, I am really enjoying this thread. I hope that we can all keep our cool here, and avoid personal or heated attacks. If you disagree with what I say, fine, but I really am not interested in a flame war on religion. This is not directred at anyone in particular.

 

[c4th]

You two at 1650 Burrard, get back to work

 

[larry Strong]

Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Cult:   Adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs or practices.

I guess it depends on how you care to interpret the two definitions.

Cult seems to refer more towards the followers......hmmm that could go both ways....

 

[combat_medic]

Don't you know that nobody works on Fridays in Vancouver - they're all too stoned or drunk and are hanging out at Wreck Jericho Beach.

 

[neuromancer]

Mathew 16:15-17 - "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Mathew 26:63-64 -
But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[a] the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

note: 'Christ' is defined as 'Messiah'.

In neither of those scriptures does Jesus claim to be YHWH or
god himself. He said he was "the son of god". It is you that imply
that when he said "I am gods' son" that he is secretly saying "I am
part of a Trinity, I am 1/3 of god. My part of the Trinity is refered to
as The Son."

I disagree with that interpretation. Many christians do.

Jesus only claimed to be the son of god. I am not my father, even if
my father taught me everything I know, and if I was a perfect
reflection of my fathers personality I would still not "be" my father.

This is not the hardest part of Christianity to grasp, its the hardest part
of "your interpretation of" Christianity to grasp. Big difference.

 

[neuromancer]

Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Cult:  Adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs or practices.

I guess it depends on how you care to interpret the two definitions.

Cult seems to refer more towards the followers......hmmm that could go both ways....

Actually, I think Cults tend to worship living human beings. Claiming that a living human
is a divine being and worthy of worship and devotion. Followers of men.

By this definition the early Christians might have been considered a cult. In fact the romans
did consider them a cult for a while. Later rome adopted Christianity, its funny how things work.

 

[winchable]

I think a cult tends to lean towards more earthly and tangible things while religion focuses on the incorporeal aspects of life, although to be honest I think cult comes under the umbrella term of "religion"
Also I think one thing you'll find with a cult is that they have distinct authorotative (can't spell tonight) leaders who generally claim to actually be God and it becomes all about that person where they worship a man, as I said very corporeal.

 

[dutchie]

In neither of those scriptures does Jesus claim to be YHWH or
god himself. He said he was "the son of god". It is you that imply
that when he said "I am gods' son" that he is secretly saying "I am
part of a Trinity, I am 1/3 of god. My part of the Trinity is refered to
as The Son."

I disagree with that interpretation. Many christians do.

Ok, that is your right. What is 'many Christians'? I find it hard to believe that 'many' Chirstians don't believe in the Trinity. I will try and find biblical references to back my assertionn that He is God, but I don't have a bible right now. To be honest, I have never heard a Christian state that Christ is not God, so you caught me off guard. Re:references - I am stuck with the Net, which is not that helpful. I recal a passage that reads something like 'I and the father are one. The Son is not above the Father, and the Father is not above the Son.' and 'one cannot come to the Father but through me.' Again, I will try and look it up, but it will have to wait. If there is anyone who knows where it is, please post it.

So, if He is not part of the Trinity, then what role did he play on the cross? Spiritualy speaking, of course.

 

[Trinity]

Ok...

I've been enjoying the little inter dialogue you have been having
about the differences of the denominations and so on...

I haven't chirped in cause i'm not really interested in getting too
involved in massive internet debates...  But...

this one points needs clarification

The Trinity (yes, incidently my name.. go figure why!!?)

I would have said all of christanity believes in the Trinity.  Hence the Christ part.
But saying 'MANY' christian denominations do not believe.. I have to put an end to that.
There might be one or two... that i'm not aware of.. but MANY?  Sorry.  I would have to
ask for theological proof on that one.  And remember I deal with all chaplains of all denominations
in the CF and I haven't heard of one denomination that doesn't believe in the Trinity...

 

[Dare]

WRONG

(didn't think I'd disagree with ya.. did you Che)

Actually, I'm not.  I'm expanding your point.. just thought I'd scare you.

Its not insulting to Muslims.  Its insulting to everyone.

An attack on one religion is an attack on all religions.

Oh come now. Built in each of the three main Abrahamic religions are things that each of the others find problematic or offensive. Preaching ones own religion can prove to be an attack on another religion. Any religion worthy of it's salt should be able to provide a reasonable defense, rather than passing silly laws that make critisizing it illegal or making a sweeping suggestion such as that.

 

[Dare]

Religion: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Cult:  Adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs or practices.

I guess it depends on how you care to interpret the two definitions.

Cult seems to refer more towards the followers......hmmm that could go both ways....

The most promenant feature of a cult is that of not being allowed to leave. Apostastic punishments are quite prolific under certain jurisdictions..