Religious Discussion

[S McKee]

The majority of the passage in the Bible declaring homosexuality as a sin are part of the old law that Christ struck down. The same chapter in Leviticus that says homosexuality is an abomination says the same thing about sleeping with a woman on her period, wearing clothing made of different fibres, marrying a non-virgin, and planting different crops in the same field... and yet these passages are blatantly ignored.

Furthermore, the Bible is rife with contradictions, so no denomination can claim to be following it to the letter, or they'd be running around in circles. (here's a good start on biblical inconsistencies: http://www.geocities.com/closetatheist/dminconsistencies.htm ). Assuming you believe that the Bible is dibinely inspired, the billions of hands the texts have gone through, and the hundreds of different translations from a handful of languages into virtually every language in existance, obviously there has been errors along the way. Even if you believe that God himself was speaking to the writers of the biblical texts, you have to account for human error. No one denomination could possibly have it right, as it's all subject to interpretation.

Futhermore, each person is different. Kind of like a Rorschach Inkblot Tests - different people will see different things in the exact same image, just as people's experiences, personality, education, and upringing will influence their reading of the exact same book. The same book tells you "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek". You have to decide for yourself which one to follow.

Jesus did not come to strike down the old law but to fulfill it, the salvation of mankind. And being a Jew he observed the Jewish customs and laws of his day, he did teach in the temple after all. So to say that he ignores the law would be incorrect. Jesus was angered at the distortion of the law by the Pharisees and Sadducee's who burdened people with the legalities of the law to such an extent that it deviated from the worship of God. Having said, that there are passages in the New Testament that refer to homosexual behaviour pulse read the 1st Chapter of Romans. Secondly if you have any inconsistencies about the bible plse list them. I would be glad to put them in context for you.

 

[Trinity]

As an aside, you say you are not disputing my argument, so do you prefer not to say what your professional opinion is? If not, please tell me.....from an 'expert', is my interpretation sound? Or am I missing something?

Do I agree... no.

Is your interpretation wrong.. no

I'm not that egotistical to say my professional opinion is correct and everyone should follow.  There
are many truths.  After three years of study, I am not convinced that gay marriage or being gay  is
a sin, HOWEVER, I also don't have enough knowledge and scripture to support it 100%  IMO from a
religious perspective.  Too few random quotes condemning it with other scripture that contradicts
the random anti gay quotes through Christian theology. (hope you can follow that last sentence)

I would love to see gay marriage.  I'm happy to see it done by civilian authorities.  I woud love to see it
done by those denominations who feel its ok.  Personally, I need to get my understanding of it before
I would perform one.  I'm all for gay rights, marriage, etc. 

We are all too selective in the bible these days.  We all sin.  The true sin is not loving one another and loving god.
Everything after that is gravy.

But i'm not saying your wrong.  I was just using my words carefully in your post.

 

[S McKee]

Sorry, Im going to call BS on that one. First of all I would like to say that most
inconsistancys are infact missunderstanding of context or other various side-line
information. I have found VERY VERY FEW inconsistancys or contradictions that
last under a little bit of thought or research.

*get out his book of quotes*

"Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship
idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts or who
steal or are greedy or are drunkards or who slander
others or are thieves - none of these will possess God's Kingdom."
1 Corinthians 6:9 --Good News Bible.

Now, before anyone jumps on my back, lets just try to temper that scripture
with another one, ok?

"'Teacher' he asked, 'which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus
answered '"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and
with all your mind.' This is the greatest and the most important commandment.
The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neightbour as
you love yourself.' The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets
depends on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:36-40 --Good News Bible.

So, if you dont love your gay neighbours as you love yourself, then you might
as well be gay yourself, cause you aint getting in the kingdom anyway.. its the
second greatest commandment in the entire "book of quotes".

As a so-called "orthodox" christian you may feel that gay people are going to h3ll
or whatever, but if you dont love them then you are condeming yourself to that
very same h3ll.

Also, if you dont view people who cheet on their taxes and steal from "Ceasar"
or who might cheat on their wives, or even have pre-marital sex as you would
also view someone who is gay, then you are a hypocrite. You're also going to h3ll
in those cases, cause thats where the hypocrites and liars go.

You might try to say "but Jesus got mad at people and condemed them when
he was on earth". True, but acording to the bible he had authority to do those
things given to him by god, you dont.

So better button those lips and play nice. Work on being a better christian youself
and lay off on the condemnations and wrath, thats not your job anyway.

(this post is addressed to the so-called "orthodox" christians.. the rest of
you can ignore me)   ;D

I not sure if your post has anything to do with my early post could you plse explain what you mean in regards to "orthodox" Christains.  I'm not getting your piont.

 

[S McKee]

Do I agree... no.

Is your interpretation wrong.. no

I'm not that egotistical to say my professional opinion is correct and everyone should follow.   There
are many truths.   After three years of study, I am not convinced that gay marriage or being gay   is
a sin, HOWEVER, I also don't have enough knowledge and scripture to support it 100%   IMO from a
religious perspective.   Too few random quotes condemning it with other scripture that contradicts
the random anti gay quotes through Christian theology. (hope you can follow that last sentence)

I would love to see gay marriage.   I'm happy to see it done by civilian authorities.   I woud love to see it
done by those denominations who feel its ok.   Personally, I need to get my understanding of it before
I would perform one.   I'm all for gay rights, marriage, etc.  

We are all too selective in the bible these days.   We all sin.   The true sin is not loving one another and loving god.
Everything after that is gravy.

But i'm not saying your wrong.   I was just using my words carefully in your post.

Could you plse tell me what scriptures contridict the "random" anti-gay scriptures in the Bible.

 

[S McKee]

I'm not challenging your argument... i'm just curious where in the bible it says that.   Would like to
see it for my own personal development.   It is a very bold statement to make and I haven't seen
that passage for myself.  

St Mark 10:1-10

 

[dutchie]

St Mark 10:1-10

For clarity, here is the scripture above:

But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

BTW, those are Jesus' words.

 

[S McKee]

Pretty clear.....

 

[LF(CMO)]

"So, if you dont love your gay neighbours as you love yourself, then you might
as well be gay yourself, ... its the
second greatest commandment in the entire "book of quotes".

The above is correct.  It is not the person that the Bible condemns, it is the sin.  We all have some kind of sin in our lives that we have to deal with.  Being 'gay' does not mean one is going to hell.

BTW:  Jumper, you are very 'discerning' in your statements on scripture.  There has been a lot of  confusion on here and you have helped to clarify things.  It seems that most who have anything to do with Para think more clearly..?

 

[atticus]

The majority of the passage in the Bible declaring homosexuality as a sin are part of the old law that Christ struck down. The same chapter in Leviticus that says homosexuality is an abomination says the same thing about sleeping with a woman on her period, wearing clothing made of different fibres, marrying a non-virgin, and planting different crops in the same field... and yet these passages are blatantly ignored.

Alot of these "sleeping witha awoman on her period, etc." were laws to be followed while the Isrealites were wondering through the desert. It is in more than just Leviticus that speaks out about homosexuality.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

"So, if you dont love your gay neighbours as you love yourself, then you might
as well be gay yourself, ... its the
second greatest commandment in the entire "book of quotes".

The above is correct.  It is not the person that the Bible condemns, it is the sin.  We all have some kind of sin in our lives that we have to deal with.  Being 'gay' does not mean one is going to heck.

If they don't repent my beliefs state that they are as stated in the bible. But I do agree with you that the person isn't condems its the sin, but if that person does not repent their sin, they will be condemed in hell because of their sin. Its also important that we should remember we still need to love the person as Christ does.

These are the ten commandments to stop any mis-quotes:
I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

II. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

III. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.

IV. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

V. Honour thy father and thy mother.
VI. Thou shalt not kill.

VII. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

VIII. Thou shalt not steal.

IX. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

X. Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

[dutchie]

Another think that I feel gets missed a lot of time:

Every person is a child of God. It does not matter what they do or do not believe, it does not matter what they do or do not do, and it does not matter what they look like. Like us, God values all human life equally.

As well, when we love what is God's, we love God. When we honour what is God's, we honour God.

Therefore, we should treat all people with respect, love, and compassion. We should treat those with whom we disagree with as if they were our brother/sister. To do this is to honour and love God. That is what "love your neighbor as you would yourself' means to me.

 

[S McKee]

"So, if you dont love your gay neighbours as you love yourself, then you might
as well be gay yourself, ... its the
second greatest commandment in the entire "book of quotes".

The above is correct.   It is not the person that the Bible condemns, it is the sin.   We all have some kind of sin in our lives that we have to deal with.   Being 'gay' does not mean one is going to heck.

BTW:   Jumper, you are very 'discerning' in your statements on scripture.   There has been a lot of   confusion on here and you have helped to clarify things.   It seems that most who have anything to do with Para think more clearly..?

Just pray more right? 2nd piont of flight procedure...Thank-You Father

 

[Trinity]

Ok.. I'll bite.  Mark 10-1 is Jesus stating his ideal situation for the family unit.
Essentially go out and procreate, i.e. flesh becoming one as well as being
literal in the translation as in the couple becomes one.

I won't say its the 100% definition of marriage.  See I find myself wanting
to argue against this... but even my research on this is using the term
marriage, when in any translation of this gospel (yes, i've checked them all, www.blueletterbible.org)
doesn't say marriage.

It doesn't say DONT marry people of the same sex either... but I think that is implied.

As for bible quotes / theology that goes against the same sex quotes... give me a while.
Its going to take a bit to dig them up.  It would be simliar to love one another where as
leviticus wants people to be stoned. BTW.. Leviticus should never be used as any example.
Sending women away for 7 days until their menstruation is over...  nice.  I use that line
to combat anyone who takes or misquotes the bible.

Just a heads up... rules in quoting the bible

1) read before and after the quote (a good bit)
2) ensure that it follows the theme of the book
3) a good theme will be repeated more than once in a chapter (i.e. 4-10 times)

Thats what bothers me about the anti gay quotes is they are few and spread out throughout
the bible.  I won't deny that they exist, but they way the are presented ..... I can find just
as many quotes saying women should be seen and not heard.  That women are property.

Thats why I'm taking caution on this issue. And rightfully so, I would hate to be wrong or
tell someone wrong info.

 

[S McKee]

Ok.. I'll bite.   Mark 10-1 is Jesus stating his ideal situation for the family unit.
Essentially go out and procreate, i.e. flesh becoming one as well as being
literal in the translation as in the couple becomes one.

I won't say its the 100% definition of marriage.   See I find myself wanting
to argue against this... but even my research on this is using the term
marriage, when in any translation of this gospel (yes, i've checked them all, www.blueletterbible.org)
doesn't say marriage.

It doesn't say DONT marry people of the same sex either... but I think that is implied.

As for bible quotes / theology that goes against the same sex quotes... give me a while.
Its going to take a bit to dig them up.   It would be simliar to love one another where as
leviticus wants people to be stoned. BTW.. Leviticus should never be used as any example.
Sending women away for 7 days until their menstruation is over...   nice.   I use that line
to combat anyone who takes or misquotes the bible.

Just a heads up... rules in quoting the bible

1) read before and after the quote (a good bit)
2) ensure that it follows the theme of the book
3) a good theme will be repeated more than once in a chapter (i.e. 4-10 times)

Thats what bothers me about the anti gay quotes is they are few and spread out throughout
the bible.   I won't deny that they exist, but they way the are presented ..... I can find just
as many quotes saying women should be seen and not heard.   That women are property.

Thats why I'm taking caution on this issue. And rightfully so, I would hate to be wrong or
tell someone wrong info.

I agree with some of your points however plse don't expend any effort on finding any quotes supportive of gay unions the in the bible, because there isn't any. Insofar as reading the bible in and out of context you are right, one must keep in mind: a. when the book was written; b. who the book was written for (the audience); c. the author and the writing style of the author; and d. the message of the book.

I believe the issue of women in the bible is greatly misunderstood as well. If you recall the subservient male /female relationship is not originally what God intended. It is one of  consequences of "the fall" for "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Men and woman were intended to be equals. However because sin entered the universe the natural balance was upset. (Another statement that will get me trouble) However, in Ephesians men are instructed to love their wives as Christ loved the church (how often does that happen). How did Christ love the church? He suffered and died for her, he gave up everthing  even his exalted position in heaven for her, this is how men are to treat their wives. God states not only in the New but in the Old Testaments that He "Hates" divorce. Perhaps the strongest language He uses to describe any sin. I have never read anywhere in the scriptures were God condones that women be treated as the "property" of their husbands. Slavery is a construct of man not of God.

 

[Trinity]

I never said slave...
I said property

It all about taking the scripture in context - as you already know.
If you study the time period, the men owned their family and servants.

Thats one of the reason a dowery is paid for a bride because it was a
loss/compensation to the father.  Also, the whole giving away the bride
thing during weddings. 

Adultery was wrong, not because it was sleeping with another person,
as it was a property crime against the man.  Only women could commit
adultery, not men (because it was a property crime)


edit... oh.. btw.. I agree. I don't think god intended it to be an un-equal
relationship either.  However, this is what happened during the time of Jesus.
He knew of this... and thus probably your quotes.  Nevertheless, it took a long
time for that to change....  say what.. 1600's, 1700's??

Thus.. in a very brief post, women were property back then.  I have no
immediate proof with the exception I just finished a M.Div (3 years) studdying
this.  Although I won't claim truth on many things... of this I can promise it true.


Edit... again..

Oh.. and men were incharge of OUTSIDE family issues.
Women were incharge of inside family issues.  So they did
have some power, just in public they remained silent. 

Isn't learning fun?

 

[dutchie]

Trinity:

So how do you discern what is 'true scripture' and what has been perverted by the social norms of the day? How do you seperate the wheat from the chaff? Obviously God's true wishes have nothing to do with the acceptance of the secular society (then or now).

I find this particularly difficult. The only 'system' I can come up with is this: true scripture is almost always supported by more than one Book, and is consistant with the 10 Commandments and Jesus' teachings. Anything that is outside of this, I am unsure of.

edit: when I say 'scripture' I mean 'God's wishes/commands'. I am not insinuating that any part of the Bible is 'wrong' - that is impossible (as it was written by God through the prophets).

 

[Edward Campbell]

Trinity:

So how do you discern what is 'true scripture' and what has been perverted by the social norms of the day? How do you seperate the wheat from the chaff? Obviously God's true wishes have nothing to do with the acceptance of the secular society (then or now).

I find this particularly difficult. The only 'system' I can come up with is this: true scripture is almost always supported by more than one Book, and is consistant with the 10 Commandments and Jesus' teachings. Anything that is outside of this, I am unsure of.

You fellows need a theological Heisenberg to give you a principle with which to address this issue.

 

[Trinity]

Welcome to the problem my friend.


Discernment... as I practice it......

Look at the text, try to get a feeling for it.

Look for repeated themes, the purpose of the book, references made within the book

Look for clues that allude to things within the time period (which you only learn by studying the history)
Know who wrote it and who it was written to.. 
such as Matthew was written for the Jews. Other gospels were written to address other groups such
as Gentiles.  Knowing who wrote it helps understand the circumstances and the aim of the stories.  We can
have the same story multiple times in the bible, all a bit different, specifically to be used for maximum effect.

Read commentaries by scholars - found in the library, various sites (such as www.blueletterbible.org)
They usually know the little keys, stories, changes, translation difficulties, and any other tid bit that
we aren't privy to.

Research different translations - i.e. different versions, i.e. NIV, NRSV, American Bible, KJV, etc....
see what each one says for the passage, how it differs and why

Finally, pray on it.  Ask if you have it right or to guide you to the truth.


Not to hard at all..... :

 

[dutchie]

Thanks Padre, that helps. It looks like I was doing all of that, but I could do a little more studying of the historical context in which It was written.

Oh, and of course, praying. You could always do more of that. 

 

[atticus]

You fellows need a theological Heisenberg to give you a principle with which to address this issue.

You mean the uncertainty principle? So do you mean uncertainty that God acually exists? I guess thats where faith comes in.

 

[Edward Campbell]

You mean the uncertainty principle? So do you mean uncertainty that God acually exists? I guess thats where faith comes in.

Well, actually I meant the more certain you are of one thing the less certain you must be of other things related to it.

â ? The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa.â ?

Heisenberg, uncertainty paper, 1927