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Religious Discussion

Caesar said:
Just saw your reply Brin. Here it is.
Actually, the Pope is a direct descendant of the Apostle Paul, the first Pope. This is agreed upon by all Christians, IIRC.

Wrong. Not all Christians agree on that.

Caesar said:
All Christians believe in the Divinity of the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit).

Wrong, Not all Christians agree on that.

Caesar said:
The only 100% core requirement to be a Christian (and go to Heaven) is to accept Jesus as the Son of God, as your Saviour, and that he died to pay your debt of Sin so you may enter Heaven. Notice how there is no mention of God the Father, Mary, or the Holy Spirit? That is how you can have one God, but many religions (Islam, Judaism), and one Religion but many denominations (Catholic vs. Protestant).

Wrong. Not all Christians agree on that.

Caesar said:
BTW, as do all other Christian denominations. Eucharist is what is called.

Wrong, Not all Christians agree on that.

Catholics in particular believe (I've been told) that the wafer and wine literally transmute
into human flesh and human blood while being eaten, and even some Catholics disagree
on that.

Caesar said:
Even though you (a Muslim say) worship God the Father (your Allah), you do not accept Jesus as the Son of God, as your Saviour, and so on. God (the Father/Allah) sent him to save you. By rejecting Jesus (God the Son) you reject God (including God the Father/Allah/YYahweh. Basically, according to Christians, Muslims were on the right track (Belief in God the Father, acceptance of the 'stories' in Genesis et all), but have lost their way by not accepting Jesus for what (they say) He is. They may worship God the Father (Allah), but, and here's the key, but the Worship of God the Father (alone) is not the requirement to enter Heaven, the worship of God the Son is.

Actually, Jesus was quite clear and precise on always directing all glory
and worship to the father and infact said "the father is greater than I am".
John 14:28


Edit: I saw someone post: "if asked god-the-father would say the son is
greater, and if the son was asked he would say the father is greater, so
they are equals."

In that case wouldnt both of them be lying? Why not just say "we are equals".

Also, in my research I have nowhere ever seen the father even vagely suggest
that anyone is greater than himself. If you have seen that then please show me.
 
BeadWindow said:
I laughed out loud when I read that. I thought that was funny for some reason. You are right that the "Old Testament" is a darker read. But lets not discount Revealations- the darkest book(and brightest) in the bible is a new testament.

ONe could agrue that God is meaner in the old test than in the new test.  But notice in the new test that god is aslo speaking through Jesus in the new test. As a spirit inside the body of the Son.  My understanding is split a piece of wood and you will find me, lift a stone and you will find me.  The trinity if understood properly is depicting the SON, the Father and the HOly Ghost all being one as God.  Though the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Ghost.  The Holy ghost is not the Father nor the Son. The father is not the Holy ghost nor the Son.  But all are God "et suez". 

Cheers!
-Buzz
 
neuromancer said:
Wrong. Not all Christians agree on that.

Wrong, Not all Christians agree on that.

Wrong. Not all Christians agree on that.

Wrong, Not all Christians agree on that.

Catholics in particular believe (I've been told) that the wafer and wine literally transmute
into human flesh and human blood while being eaten, and even some Catholics disagree
on that.

Actually, Jesus was quite clear and precise on always directing all glory
and worship to the father and infact said "the father is greater than I am".
John 14:28


Edit: I saw someone post: "if asked god-the-father would say the son is
greater, and if the son was asked he would say the father is greater, so
they are equals."

In that case wouldnt both of them be lying? Why not just say "we are equals".

Also, in my research I have nowhere ever seen the father even vagely suggest
that anyone is greater than himself. If you have seen that then please show me.

If you read the first chapter of Hebrews God does refer to his Son as God. "But about the Son he says, "Your throne O God will last for ever and ever. However you are right Jesus took upon himself the role of servant even though " being in very nature God, did not consider equlaity with God something to be grasped." Phil 2:6
 
um....

bit off track... its about all worshipping the same God... 
not how messed up christianity is among denominations....


 
Bead

I am a theologian...

I'm sorry to hear you dismiss the translation from Arabic as a smokescreen.

I've studied the Christian testaments in Greek and Hebrew, and I can assure you that it
makes a big difference reading texts in their original language.  Why? Especially
with Hebrew there are no vowels, thus, it creates opportunity for
things to be taken in different ways; as a statement, question, etc..

I explained one example with Judas and the word betrayed and handed over...

So, as I have personally witnessed that original language does make a difference, rest assured
I'm not talking out of my ass.  Tomorrow I finish my LAST class (amen) for my Masters of Divinity.
Am I 100% in what I say.. no..  but I'm usually firing from some accepted religious opinions

I think you asked do Jewish leaders think we are worshipping the same god - to which you responded no.

Um.. I would disagree. They do. Talk to some of their scholars and Rabbi.  Imagine if your opinion on Islam was
the exact same view of Jews on Christians..  that we are wrong and just a false off shoot.  But they don't (anymore),
but respect our right as we respect theirs. (with minor exceptions) But imagine a Jew claiming our God is false
and how upset would you be?

Finally.. if having a pagan history and additions to one's religion makes it false.... then Christianity is doomed.
Guess who has pagan history, celebrations, scripture.. Thats right...  The creation story, there is evidence that
it comes from ancient Babylonian Scriptures of a pagan religion.  Some of our holidays were pagan ones that we
adopted because our people were celebrating them (I believe Christmas was one of them).  Our own depictions
and art of God came from previous pagan beliefs.  We are ripe with Pagan history. :o






edit.. (i'm a tool.. mixed up my languages)
 
The phrase, "no god but Allah"? proves "Allah" is not just another word for "God" to the Muslims. The transliterated phrase from Arabic reads, "La ilaha illAllah." A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. The important thing to note is that the word "Allah" is a name and is not the word for god. If "Allah" were the word for god, then the phrase would read, "there is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not. The Qur'an itself claims that Allah is the personal name of the Islamic god: (017.110) "Say, Call Him Allah or call Him Ar-Rahman; whatever the name you call Him, all His names are beautiful." If "Allah" were the word for god, then Islam's god is nameless. There is also no evidence that the word "Allah" is a contraction of the words "al ilah," which means, "the god." If it were, then again, the phrase would read, "there is no allah but allah." As part of the first "Pillar of Islam," this issue is critical as Islam claims that the God of the Bible (whose name is Yahweh) and Allah are one in the same and that we all, therefore, worship the same god.

Che- can you give me your interpretationof this? Its from some reading Im doing currently. If you have a second.

Firstly, might I suggest reading something other than blatantly anti-islamic sources, Arthur Jeffrey is hardly what I would describe as an unbiased academic. The folks at www.bible.ca (who borrow from his texts liberally) are taking part in what I see too many supposedly religious people doing, that is negating other religions in an attempt to make theirs look good. Muslims do it, Christians do it and as soon as I recognise it in a text or on a website I hit the back button and keep looking because that's not intelligent academic material.

I wrote an entire post on the semantics of semetic languages with regards to this, and you have yet to refute or discuss any of the points I've made in my posts so I will do this and then I will stop until I see some dialogue or compromise on the issue because I feel you're wasting my time where I'm taking the time to address your points and you move on to another one and another one with no comment on my refutations.
The sentence I would focus on and blow this up would be the following:

There is also no evidence that the word "Allah" is a contraction of the words "al ilah," which means, "the god."

There is no evidence to truly support either claim, this is where one's faith matters. I have faith that the prophet was not trying to trick me into worshipping a moon God, I have faith that he was given the actual words of God to steer the people of the world back on track. If you think I'm foolish for believing such a thing (and you implied that it was of a certain foolishness that an angel could talk to Mohamed) you may wish to look at Christianity and realise that there is no exact science to doing this, it's intangible and faith gets you over the threshold of disbelief, as a Christian I thought you would know that. Though you've got a padre, and there are a number of priests (even the vatican recognises it) that accept and believe that the religions are so closely related they are looking at the same deity, the intagible, ineffible God.

The intent of this declaration is to affirm that there are no other Gods, an affirmation of monotheism, which at the time was a fading thing. I take refuge in what the intent clearly was not what I want it to be, as so many anti-semetics and anti-islamists choose to do.

Islam has stood for centuries and you nor anyone else here is going to be the one to bring it down, I am tempted to simply stop responding to your points because I think I cannot do the proper defence because I am very young and limited in my resources and you will come away from this convinced that Muslims are unbelieving savages who worship a pagan idol. I suggest if you still feel uncertain, talk to an Imam, go to any mosque, or for that matter talk to a priest and tell them how you feel and you will see how. I am quite honest when I say that I am new to religious studies, there are 60-70 year olds who are quite pious who have studied religious texts their entire life and they will not claim to know all of the answers, so I can only do my best.

Islam defends itself quite well if people take the quality time to actually do their own unbiased research rather than looking at material on the internet, sadly many people don't bother and misconceptions will continue to exist.  I suggest you do the same or address some of the points in my previous posts before flinging more Biased material at me or moving on to other arguments before acknowledging a compromise or counter-point.


------------------------------

Someone also asked about the different personas that God seems to take on in the different religions. Judaism and Islam tend to be religions of laws, do this, don't do that. So God appears to be quite strict, more like a parent. And truthfully if you look at Islam and Judaism you will see more similiarities than either shows with Christianity.
So God isn't more vengeful or strict with Muslims and Jews they just choose to adhere (or should) to a strict set of laws and works. Even Roman Catholicism is quite strict with rules, laws and works because it is arguably a more pure version of the primary religion which (i and others) contend is the root of all 3 Monotheistic faiths.

and finally,

Finally.. if having a pagan history and additions to one's religion makes it false.... then Christianity is doomed

Thankyou Padre you saved me a paragraph
 
Jumper said:
If you read the first chapter of Hebrews God does refer to his Son as God. "But about the Son he says, "Your throne O God will last for ever and ever. However you are right Jesus took upon himself the role of servant even though " being in very nature God, did not consider equlaity with God something to be grasped." Phil 2:6

"But of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever;"
Heb 2:8 American Standard Version

Some interpret the "O God" part of the sentence merely as an exclamation mark,
similar to saying "amen" or "hallelujah". These types of exclamations are quite
common throughout the Bible, as I'm sure you are well aware.

Other translations from ancient Greek phrase it quite differently (rare translations)
"God is thy throne for ever and ever;"
Heb 2:8 Moffet Translation

..but thanks for that scripture very interesting discussion!
 
Che said:
Thank you Padre you saved me a paragraph

hey... its my house/religion .... better I say and admit it...

We need to admit our own faults instead of attacking others!

So.. between
1) the translation difficulties
2) christians having pagen ....  things... as part of our relgion (sorry brain fart)

those are two very distinct and hard facts that you cannot ignore..
 
Che said:
I wrote an entire post on the semantics of semetic languages with regards to this, and you have yet to refute or discuss any of the points I've made in my posts so I will do this and then I will stop until I see some dialogue or compromise on the issue because I feel you're wasting my time where I'm taking the time to address your points and you move on to another one and another one with no comment on my refutations.

I just want to say that I agreed with everything you wrote about the breakdown of
the Hebrew and Islamic word for god.

Anyway, only stop posting if you have nothing of interest left to say.
I for one, enjoy your posts.  :salute:
 
Infanteer said:
...Anyways, perhaps people can clear something else up for me.   I remember hearing something that the Christian religion sees God as loving and forgiving and that the Jews approach him in a different manner - He is still the wrathful and vengeful God of the Old Testament/Torah.   Is this true?  

While the way God is perceived has been an ongoing philosophical debate for thousands of years the overriding principles of the faith that all Jewish religious scholars (disclaimer: I will  never be considered one of them :)) agree with is that God knows the actions of humans and is not neglectful of them.  He rewards those who obey the commands of the Torah and punishes those who violate its prohibitions.   The Torah itself will never be abrogated, nothing will be added to it or subtracted from it; God will never give another Law.  

Because God is the creator and cause of all that exists and because God is eternal,  obeying the Torah he gave requires that God should be the only object of worship and praise. One should not appeal to intermediaries, but should pray directly to God.   Hence the most fundamental of Jewish prayers, to be said when one awakes and before one falls asleep and to be the last words on one's lips when one dies:  Shema Yisroel Adonai Elohanyu, Adoni Echot--Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is One.

Not exactly a simple yes or no answer to your question but I trust it helps.
 
Shec said:
Not exactly a simple yes or no answer to your question but I trust it helps.

Isn't it also true (Im not jewish either) that breaking of the sabath by doing
certain forms of work on Saterday is still considered a deadly sin, in the
Torah it was punishable by death such as in the story of the woodsman
that Moses had put to death for gathering wood on the sabath.


 
neuromancer said:
Isn't it also true (Im not jewish either) that breaking of the sabath by doing
certain forms of work on Saterday is still considered a deadly sin, in the
Torah it was punishable by death such as in the story of the woodsman
that Moses had put to death for gathering wood on the sabath.
 

Like any law it is a matter of interpretation given individual circumstance.  Hence the ongoing philosophical debate and dialogue.  If you're doing it to support those relying upon you, if it is a matter of duty, working on Sabbath is OK.   But to work on Sabbath solely for personal convenience, eg. doing your laundry when you can just as easily do it some other time, is frowned upon.   If one is having a crisis of conscience one is encouraged to consult a Rabbi who can issue a special dispensation.  eg.   The day the Yom Kippur war broke out.   Even though it was the holiest day on the Jewish calendar Rabbi's held that responding to the call to arms was permissable.      
 
Great discussion guys, this is really insightful.

I've got something for you that has always bothered me from a theology perspective:

According to the Christian faith, you must accept Jesus to be saved. Yet, Jews are the Chosen Ones because they listened to God's voice (Genesis 12:3 & 22:18). Yet Paul said that they are not the Chosen Ones because they did not listen to God's voice when they rejected Jesus (Romans 9:6-8). So what is it? Are Jews (present day of course) the Chosen Ones (from a Christian perspective)? I say no, but it is commonly held belief by many Christians (and all Jews of course  ;) ) that they still are.

BTW, it was Paul who wrote Corinthians, not Peter, as was mentioned earlier. The point being made earlier is none the less valid.
 
Acorn said:
Well, I can't help but perpetuate this little deviation from the topic:

Beadwindow, you're missing the mark. However, I can see why, if one argues the Divinity of Christ and the immutability of the Holy Trinity. Do you accept that the God of the Jews is the same God? If so, you are accepting the Allah of Islam. The Qu'ran is quite clear in this, and clear in that Islam believes the Christian Faith deviated from the intent of the Prophet Isa (Jesus-pbuh) and assigned him a Divinity that he neither deserved, nor sought. There is no question about God though.

The difference may be a bit more pronounced than, say, Christian sect disagreement about Transmutation (the physical transmutation of the water and wine of the Eucharist to the Flesh and Blood of Christ), but it is still only a minor difference compared to that between Judeo-Christian belief and that of, say, the Hundu faith.

I suspect you may have been mislead in some way about Islam (the "moon god?")

The Qur'an is not denying the crucifiction of Jesus. It is denying the crucifiction of God. The Islamic mantra of "There is only one God, Allah..." is partly intended to deny the Holy Trinity - God is only one, and is not made man. Yes, it denies some fundamental basis of the Christian faith, but Judaism also denies those fundamentals , yet we do not deny that the Jewish God is the same. Or do you?
Just because the Qur'an says Allah is the same god, does not make it so (stipulation: unless you believe it to be the same god. To say that if you accept Yehwah or Jesus as your God/Savior you accept Islam, is not true) And the God of Judaism is Yehwah, just as with Christianity.

EDIT: Added stipulation.
 
Caesar said:
Great discussion guys, this is really insightful.

I've got something for you that has always bothered me from a theology perspective:

According to the Christian faith, you must accept Jesus to be saved. Yet, Jews are the Chosen Ones because they listened to God's voice (Genesis 12:3 & 22:18). Yet Paul said that they are not the Chosen Ones because they did not listen to God's voice when they rejected Jesus (Romans 9:6-8). So what is it? Are Jews (present day of course) the Chosen Ones (from a Christian perspective)? I say no, but it is commonly held belief by many Christians (and all Jews of course   ;) ) that they still are.

BTW, it was Paul who wrote Corinthians, not Peter, as was mentioned earlier. The point being made earlier is none the less valid.

Most Jews approach it differently--who did the choosing?    The Torah predates Christianity so when the new religion came to be Jews chose God   himself rather than God choosing Jews.   Why did we do that?   For the reason I referenced in my first post--Judiasm's doctrine holds that obeying the Torah He gave requires that God should be the only object of worship and praise. Therefore it follows that one should not appeal to intermediaries, but should pray directly to God. 



 
Just because the Qur'an says Allah is the same god, does not make it so (stipulation: unless you believe it to be the same god. To say that if you accept Yehwah or Jesus as your God/Savior you accept Islam, is not true) And the God of Judaism is Yehwah, just as with Christianity.

Agreed and if someone wants to tell me that they don't believe the God is the same and that's that, then that's fine really! But when I hear that Islam is just a pagan religion in a monothestic hat and I have evidence to the contrary then there will be disagreements because quite frankly there is nothing more insulting to any Muslim.

Therefore it follows that one should not appeal to intermediaries, but should pray directly to God

There are not as many big differences between Islam and Judaism as people would like us to think.
 
Che said:
Agreed and if someone wants to tell me that they don't believe the God is the same and that's that, then that's fine really! But when I hear that Islam is just a pagan religion in a monothestic hat and I have evidence to the contrary then there will be disagreements because quite frankly there is nothing more insulting to any Muslim.

WRONG

(didn't think I'd disagree with ya.. did you Che)

Actually, I'm not.  I'm expanding your point.. just thought I'd scare you.

Its not insulting to Muslims.  Its insulting to everyone.

An attack on one religion is an attack on all religions.

For Bead to claim Muslims are pagans.... opens up a whole word of hurt
on many religions, including Christianity, which shares a pagan past.  That
is why I feel the need to speak up if I see people attacking another religion.
Don't get me wrong... I don't accept some smaller fringe religions OR
even some 'right wing' Christian denominations. But to openly deny them
the rights of their beliefs (unless it truly is a cult.. like David Koresh) is to allow
someone else to openly deny myself my beliefs.







 
Trinity, not to further derail this discussion, but what differentiates a religion from a cult?

DF

 
OK, just to lighten things up a little(depends on your sense of humor. I suppose):

There are three religious truths:

a. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
b. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian
faith.
c. Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store or at Hooters

;D

Have a nice day       Drummy
 
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