Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[Greymatters]

Being ordered to attend a church parade.  Being singled out or punished for your disbelief.

The latter one of these was recently in the news in the US. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iTPjkhPtGfRjsMUS9Q_F95TRAdcQD8V7JRIO0

Like I said though, this does not happen with any regularity in the CF.  Just as with other forms of discrimination though you can never say never.

I think an example you are looking for that most people will have seen was in Full Metal Jacket (although it is only a movie and not neccesarily typical of true events); remember the scene where the drill sergeant went ape**** on the lead charater because he said he didnt believe in God...?

 

[midgetcop]

I'd say I'm a pretty darn tolerant atheist. My girlfriend is a believer, and somehow we manage to co-exist (with only the occasional argument on our spiritual differences).

I could care less on what religion people follow. I don't have issues going to church for funerals, weddings, etc. I even go once in a blue moon with my girlfriend, mainly out of support (and I have to admit, curiousity). As long as I'm afforded the same tolerance and respect that I try and project to others, then it's never an issue for me.

 

[RangerRay]

It wasn't that long ago that on Sundays, you had two choices: go to church parade, or hang out at the shacks with the Master Corporal, who will have a long list of taskings to keep you busy!

 

[geo]

I remember many years ago that, on church parade, everyone would participate.  If you were of another faith & did not want to participate in service then, accomodation was dealt with.... you could stay outside & wait for the service to end and the troops would come out.

Remember, it's a parade!

 

[Reccesoldier]

Yes, so glad that foolishness is no longer permitted.

 

[geo]

well... we used to have some great card games sitting out in the sun, watching all the girls go by

 

[Drummy]

I remember many years ago that, on church parade, everyone would participate.  If you were of another faith & did not want to participate in service then, accomodation was dealt with.... you could stay outside & wait for the service to end and the troops would come out.

Remember, it's a parade!

I can also remember when Happy Hour was a parade as well. They could't make you drink, but it was parade, and I don't remember too many people complaining about those parades.  ;D

Drummy

 

[dangerboy]

I can also remember when Happy Hour was a parade as well. They could't make you drink, but it was parade, and I don't remember too many people complaining about those parades.  ;D

Drummy

Happy hour still is a parade at least it is in 2VP.  End of highjack.

 

[McG]

OK, here goes.  Statistics Canada census in 1991 showed us at 12 per cent.  By 2001 it showed us at 16 per cent.  In 2006 StatsCan did a "Social Trends in Canada" survey which showed the number had risen to 19 per cent.  On top of that, another 25 per cent, while unwilling to say they had no religious beliefs, stated that religion played no part in their lives and that they did not think about it, or take part in it.  And those numbers are growing.  It will be interesting to see the figures in the 2011 census.  The fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam, but it is still a very small part of the overall demographic.

This quote from a few pages back was attack for using "made up" facts & much of his arguments dismissed.  He was, however, quite correct as can be seen on the StatsCan website:  http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-008-XIE/2006001/PDF/religious_81.pdf

Interestingly, the report also adds some credence to my theory that we may have many people claiming to have a religion when in practice this is not the case.  Unfortunately, the report does not break down "degree of religiousness" by religion, so it can't be used to specifically contest the notion that Canada is/isn't a Christian society ... but maybe it is possible to statistically determine one way or the other.

 

[McG]

I remember many years ago that, on church parade, everyone would participate.  If you were of another faith & did not want to participate in service then, accomodation was dealt with.... you could stay outside & wait for the service to end and the troops would come out.

Back in those days, was there any CoC or peer pressure/expectation that you not be one of the people waiting outside the front door?

 

[vonGarvin]

OK, let's talk about accomodation for me, a practicing Roman Catholic.  According to my faith, I must attend mass on Sundays and on Holy Days of Obligation ("special" days other than Sunday.  These vary by country.  Saint Patrick's Day is a Holy Day of Obligation in Ireland, for example, because he is the patron saint of Ireland).  Personally, I have asked for permission, and received such permission, to attend mass on these days.  Always. 
Now, for a co-worker, who is Islamic, his "day" is Friday.  He has also had no problem.  He asked, and he was accomodated to worship according to his faith.  That is accomodation. 
If we force people into a church, mosque or synagogue for a parade, that is not accomodation.  It's a parade.  Some may not like it, but I also don't like marching in the rain, and I have.
I find that people are fair and will accomodate your beliefs. 
Unless you claim to be Jedi ;D

 

[Reccesoldier]

Back in those days, was there any CoC or peer pressure/expectation that you not be one of the people waiting outside the front door?

Speaking only from my own experience the usual response to the request to be excused was something along the lines of  "Why, what's wrong with you?" or my personal favorite... "Why, it won't hurt you to participate"  but I've voiced my displeasure with this sort of group-think/harassment before so I will spare everyone the pain of doing it again.

I will say that I have never experienced continued harassment on the job or elsewhere due to my lack of belief though.  Your results may vary.

 

[armyvern]

I'm an athiest. I've been ordered to Church Parades "back in the day".

But even then, I wasn't ordered in to worship or ordered into the "sanctum" (??) proper. Nor was I even forced to remain outside waiting for the others to come back out --- they had a room set up with books, magazines etc (& at the Catholic Church ... they had coffeee & donuts in there too!!  ;D) that I could sit back and relax in. I really didn't have any issues with that.

I have entered the Church proper for Funeral Parades. They've never had to "order" me to do that simply because I've never questioned that. I've never questioned that simply because that Funeral Parade wasn't/isn't about "ME" -- it's about my comrade in arms being laid to rest in accordance with HIS beliefs --- and surely to hell, on the occasion of his funeral, I, the Athiest, can accomodate his beliefs.

I guess, that's my outlook.

 

[Reccesoldier]

OK, let's talk about accomodation for me, a practicing Roman Catholic.  According to my faith, I must attend mass on Sundays and on Holy Days of Obligation ("special" days other than Sunday.  These vary by country.  Saint Patrick's Day is a Holy Day of Obligation in Ireland, for example, because he is the patron saint of Ireland).  Personally, I have asked for permission, and received such permission, to attend mass on these days.  Always. 
Now, for a co-worker, who is Islamic, his "day" is Friday.  He has also had no problem.  He asked, and he was accomodated to worship according to his faith.  That is accomodation. 
If we force people into a church, mosque or synagogue for a parade, that is not accomodation.  It's a parade.  Some may not like it, but I also don't like marching in the rain, and I have.
I find that people are fair and will accomodate your beliefs. 
Unless you claim to be Jedi ;D

Marching in the rain is not a choice if it is raining and you are having a parade outside.  

Having a parade in a church/mosque/synagogue is a conscious choice of venue.

Just to clarify, I agree with the idea of accommodation.  As an atheist I accommodate the beliefs of the vast majority every time there is a regimental parade or mess dinner and there is a drum head ceremony or grace is spoken.  I acknowledge the beliefs of the majority, I stand up and doff my headdress at the appropriate time and in all I am respectful.  

But to me there is a big difference between a service as part of a marching parade celebrating a military purpose (Regimental Birthday/battlehonour) and a parade held in a church/mosque/synagogue.  At the point where any acknowledgement of religion becomes a full blown - inside a church/mosque/synagogue - sit in pews - sing hymns and read from the holy book kind of service, the line has been crossed between accommodation of the beliefs of the majority and forced participation of a minority in a purely religious rite.  This doesn't mean only the atheistic minority but the minority of all those who do not practise that sect of Christianity or faith.  And as such, I believe, the proper and respectful alternative is to invite the faithful to participate in dedicated services in their own places of worship.

Edited to add:  Like Vern I willingly attend funeral parades, not out of compulsion, not for the Military but for the deceased.  There is a very big distinction.

 

[armyvern]

Reccesoldier,

Your last paragraph also describes the setting for a Funeral Parade. I'm curious as to whether you view those particular parades differently then a "Sunday Morning Church parade" as I do.

Edited to add: Forget it -- I now see your edit!!  ;D

 

[vonGarvin]

Marching in the rain is not a choice if it is raining and you are having a parade outside.  

Having a parade in a church/mosque/synagogue is a conscious choice of venue.

Edited to add:  Like Vern I willingly attend funeral parades, not out of compulsion, not for the Military but for the deceased.  There is a very big distinction.

To be fair, I agree with you.  I wasn't clear: I was thinking funeral parades in a place of worship.  I do apologise for the confusion.

 

[geo]

From a personal point of view, I do not feel I have to sit in any special structure to meditate and communicate with my god - per my personal beliefs.  A church, a mosque, a synagogue or a gymnasium are only just structures.

If a friend marries and want to invite me & the Mrs.... I will go to lend them my support.
It might be at city hall, in a mosque, a synagogue, a church, someone's backyard or on top of a mountain.... who cares where they hold their exchange of vows.... it's the words and the intent that matters most.

If a friend passes away, I will go to Church, synagogue, mosque or gravesite - I am there to lend my support AND have my last words with an old friend.

 

[armyvern]

From a personal point of view, I do not feel I have to sit in any special structure to meditate and communicate with my god - per my personal beliefs.  A church, a mosque, a synagogue or a gymnasium are only just structures.

If a friend marries and want to invite me & the Mrs.... I will go to lend them my support.
It might be at city hall, in a mosque, a synagogue, a church, someone's backyard or on top of a mountain.... who cares where they hold their exchange of vows.... it's the words and the intent that matters most.

If a friend passes away, I will go to Church, synagogue, mosque or gravesite - I am there to lend my support AND have my last words with an old friend.

Geo ... breathe ...  ;D

I understand where you are coming from with your post. I too have attended weddings etc in churchs of my own choice.

What is being discussed here is being "ordered" into a Church for a "Church Parade" which is quite the different matter all together. I think though, that we've all managed to agree that a Funeral Parade is acceptable, and that none of us would question attendance at such.

 

[geo]

..phew!

 

[McG]

.... and I think a majority is starting to form around the position that ceremonies to send-off the fallen should be conducted in the religion of the specific member(s), but outside of this there is no place for mandatory religious parade/ceremony for the sake of religion.