Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[Reccesoldier]

.... and I think a majority is starting to form around the position that ceremonies to send-off the fallen should be conducted in the religion of the specific member(s), but outside of this there is no place for mandatory religious parade/ceremony for the sake of religion.

Yup, Yup, Yup.

 

[vonGarvin]

.... and I think a majority is starting to form around the position that ceremonies to send-off the fallen should be conducted in the religion of the specific member(s), but outside of this there is no place for mandatory religious parade/ceremony for the sake of religion.

I thought that was already the case, no? 
As for the second bullet, I totally agree.

 

[McG]

I thought that was already the case, no? 

I don't know.  I too would think it is that case.

 

[Trinity]

I have been trying not to weigh in.... but it seems the time is appropriate.

Albeit I cannot state for what has happened in the past (decades ago)....

I am unaware of any funeral being mandatory.  I have been to a few CF funerals and
except for the firing party, I believe it was voluntary by everyone.  As it is voluntary it
doesn't matter if the service is religious or denominational as no one is being forced to attend.

There are many Remembrances that are mandatory by the CF and therefore the service must
be multi faith as required as not to a specific religion upon the serving members.


If being forced to attend a church parade is seen as violation of one's rights, then if one were
FORCED to attend a funeral that was religious I could easily see the same violation taking place.
But more recently, as I have said, I am unaware of any forced funerals in the CF. 


My opinions only... of course but it's finally a topic that is in "my arc".

 

[armyvern]

I have been trying not to weigh in.... but it seems the time is appropriate.

Albeit I cannot state for what has happened in the past (decades ago)....

I am unaware of any funeral being mandatory.  I have been to a few CF funerals and
except for the firing party, I believe it was voluntary by everyone.  As it is voluntary it
doesn't matter if the service is religious or denominational as no one is being forced to attend.

There are many Remembrances that are mandatory by the CF and therefore the service must
be multi faith as required as not to a specific religion upon the serving members.


If being forced to attend a church parade is seen as violation of one's rights, then if one were
FORCED to attend a funeral that was religious I could easily see the same violation taking place.
But more recently, as I have said, I am unaware of any forced funerals in the CF. 


My opinions only... of course but it's finally a topic that is in "my arc".

But, that's exactly what the Athiests are saying here.

That we wouldn't even need to be "forced" to go to a funeral parade. A Funeral Parade is about laying to rest our Comrade in Arms in accordance with HIS beliefs -- no one is doing this to force THEIR beliefs on us. We would go -- without orders to do so.

Forcing us to attend other "RELIGIOUS" ceremonies is seen in a different light, even IF they are multi/non-denominational to recognize "everyone's" beliefs. We have NO beliefs, and that's why people have a problem being forced to attend a Church Parade to hear everyone else's espoused.

Doffing our hats on November 11th is not a Church Parade. It's removing our hats as a sign of respect for our fallen (if removing one's hat does not conflict with their own religious practices). That doesn't mean I have to pray. I just stand there and cry actually.

I can remove my headdress when ordered to do so while others pray ... because I just don't pray. And, I don't view taking my hat off as a "religious" move -- I take my hat off 4 or 5 times a day as it is. Removing my beret itself does not insinuate (to ME anyway) that I am being ordered to perform some "religious ritual", but forcing me to attend a Church Parade for the sake of being there to listen to Religious sermons of any nature, none of which are applicable to me, certainly is forcing me to partake in a ritual. I think, that's where the difference lies.

 

[Yrys]

Atheist soldier claims harassment

JUNCTION CITY, Kansas (AP)  -- Like hundreds of young men joining the Army in recent years, Jeremy Hall professes a desire to serve his country while it fights
terrorism. But the short and soft-spoken specialist is at the center of a legal controversy. He has filed a lawsuit alleging he's been harassed and his constitutional rights
have been violated because he doesn't believe in God. The suit names Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

"I'm not in it for cash," Hall said. "I want no one else to go what I went through." Known as "the atheist guy," Hall has been called immoral, a devil worshipper and --
just as severe to some soldiers -- gay, none of which, he says, is true. Hall even drove fellow soldiers to church in Iraq and paused while they prayed before meals.

"I see a name and rank and United States flag on their shoulder. That's what I believe everyone else should see," he said. Hall, 23, was raised in a Protestant family in
North Carolina and dropped out of school. It wasn't until he joined the Army that he began questioning religion, eventually deciding he couldn't follow any faith.

But he feared how that would look to other soldiers. "I was ashamed to say that I was an atheist," Hall said.

It eventually came out in Iraq in 2007, when he was in a firefight. Hall was a gunner on a Humvee, which took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his
commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said. "I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,"' Hall said. "I've never believed I was going to a happy place. You get
one life. When I die, I'm worm food."

The issue came to a head when, according to Hall, a superior officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, threatened to bring charges against him for trying to hold a meeting of
atheists in Iraq. Welborn has denied Hall's allegations. Hall said he had had enough but feared he wouldn't get support from Welborn's superiors. He turned to Mikey
Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Weinstein is the foundation's president and a U.S. Air Force Academy graduate. He had previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on
students at the academy, though that case was dismissed. He calls Hall a hero. "The average American doesn't have enough intestinal fortitude to tell someone to shut
up if they are talking in a movie theater," Weinstein said. "You know how hard it is to take on your chain of command? This isn't the shift manager at KFC."

Hall was in Qatar when the lawsuit was filed on September 18 in federal court in Kansas City, Kansas. Other soldiers learned of it and he feared for his own safety. Once,
Hall said, a group of soldiers followed him, harassing him, but no one did anything to make it stop. The Army told him it couldn't protect him and sent him back to Fort
Riley. He resumed duties with a military police battalion. He believes his promotion to sergeant has been blocked because of his lawsuit, but he is a team leader responsible
for two junior enlisted soldiers.

No one with Fort Riley, the Army or Defense Department would comment about Hall or the lawsuit. Each issued statements saying that discrimination will not be tolerated
regardless of race, religion or gender. "The department respects [and supports by its policy] the rights of others to their own religious beliefs, including the right to hold no
beliefs," said Eileen Lainez, a spokeswoman for the Department of Defense. All three organizations said existing systems help soldiers "address and resolve any perceived
unfair treatment."

Lt. Col. David Shurtleff, a Fort Riley chaplain, declined to discuss Hall's case but said chaplains accommodate all faiths as best they can. In most cases, religious issues can
be worked out without jeopardizing military operations. "When you're in Afghanistan and an IED blows up a Humvee, they aren't asking about a wounded soldier's faith,"
Shurtleff said.

Hall said he enjoys being a team leader but has been told that having faith would make him a better leader. "I will take care of my soldiers. Nowhere does it say I have
to pray with my soldiers, but I do have to make sure my soldiers' religious needs are met," he said. "Religion brings comfort to a lot of people," he said. "Personally, I
don't want it or need it. But I'm not going to get down on anybody else for it." Hall leaves the Army in April 2009. He would like to find work with the National Park Service
or Environmental Protection Agency, anything outdoors. "I hope this doesn't define me," Hall said of his lawsuit. "It's just about time somebody said something."

I'm posting it as it is in the news today. There was another thread, that has been locked on the subject :
Troops Being Force Fed Christianity

Remember, no slagging others peoples or beliefs.

 

[LineDoggie]

So far in My 27 years Service I have never been pressured nor even asked what My Religious affiliation(or Lack thereof) is other than by the Admin Clerks during SRC processing.
I've served with Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Buddhist, Rastafarian, etc.  Soldiers both in Combat & Peactime

 

[tomahawk6]

The suit is without merit. Its political why else sue the SecDef if your unit commander violated your rights ?

 

[LineDoggie]

The suit is without merit. Its political why else sue the SecDef if your unit commander violated your rights ?

-Probably because suing the Major in question wouldnt get international exposure for the "Cause". This reminds me of Micheal Newdow suing over his daughter (that he didnt have custody of ) reciting the pledge of allegiance.  Specialist could just as easily have filed an EO complaint with the JAG and that Major would have been cashiered if the allegations were found true.

 

[Red 6]

It puts done to the old adage "there are no atheists in foxholes." :warstory: Seriously, I agree that this Soldier has some sort of political axe to grind.

 

[Shadowolf]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html


KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.


Army Spc. Jeremy Hall, who was raised Baptist but is now an atheist, says the military violated his religious freedom.

Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.

He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.

Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.

His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.

Suddenly the CF looks alot better.

 

[GAP]

Why do I come away with the feeling that there is a whole lot more to this story than the tidbits waved here..... :

 

[Shec]

Why do I come away with the feeling that there is a whole lot more to this story than the tidbits waved here..... :

Agreed !

 

[Blackadder1916]

Why do I come away with the feeling that there is a whole lot more to this story than the tidbits waved here..... :

Perhaps if the OP had added this story to either of the existing threads concerning this matter you would not have had this feeling.

Atheist soldier claims harassment - AP
Troops Being Force Fed Christianity

 

[The Bread Guy]

Time to merge it up then, Mods!

 

[Shadowolf]

I looked, didnt see. My apologies.

 

[armyvern]

I looked, didnt see. My apologies.

Now merged, and unlocked.

Let's try to keep it unlocked this time shall we all?

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hallelujah (sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[jollyjacktar]

I am an atheist.  Strongly so.  And in being of such a belief, or lack thereof dependant upon your view, I have to accept and understand that I am in the minority amongst my peers.  Religion has always been a part of my experience in the CF from Remembrance Day Ceremonies to Parades (Change of Command/Graduation etc) and everything in between.  It cannot be escaped by me and such is life.  I endure the time given to the subject as it brings comfort to my comrades who need it's embrace.  The Padres I have met in my time with a couple of exceptions have been splendid men and women. 

The only time that I did feel put upon was my Graduation from PLQ.  We were informed that regardless of what belief we held, we would all as one bow our heads in prayer. Period.  As a rule I do not bow my head as to me that is hypocritical given my views and opinion on the subject.  If however, Religion was to become a major part of the requirements of the CF as alluded to in some of the posts about our neighbours to the South, it would be time for me to part ways.  Perhaps this Soldier should have considered the same actions.

 

[2 Cdo]

The only time that I did feel put upon was my Graduation from PLQ.  We were informed that regardless of what belief we held, we would all as one bow our heads in prayer. Period.  As a rule I do not bow my head as to me that is hypocritical given my views and opinion on the subject. 

I'm curious as to why you would think it hypocritical to bow your head, nobody is forcing you to pray or kneel.