Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[Reccesoldier]

<SNIP>

I guess I would say to those who want to walk off parade no matter what the words are that come out of my mouth...would you do the same when a Politician is invited who stands up on invitation from the Parade Commander. I've listened to a lot of drivel coming out of a lot of different sources on parades and during "briefings"...why is it that my drivel gets centered out for disdain?

I believe that this is meant for me.  As I said earlier... more than once, My comments are specifically referring to being ordered into a Church for a purely religious service. 

For the rest, I am a soldier,  I know and accept that the majority of persons serving in the CF have some sort of religious expression.  I know that there is a long tradition of religion being connected with the military and military parades.  On parade, doing my military duty, while I will not speak or bow my head I am quiet and respectful of all those who do believe.  I go to my happy place or make my own remembrances.

By saying get rid of public prayer altogether you are imposing your belief (that there is no God and no validity to prayer) on others,

I have not suggested, nor would I suggest such a thing.

which is exactly what you are accusing the majority of doing to you now (mistakenly I believe for no one can impose religious belief on another in reality).

Nor have I claimed that anyone is able to make me believe merely by going through the motions. 

My point is that it is discriminatory to demand my presence for a purely religious ceremony and that it is then farcical to call my non-compliance with the directions of the ceremony arrogant or rude or disrespectful.

Am I not typing this all in English?

For me, and speaking specifically about being forced to go to church parade, I felt that I was imposing on the religious.

But also, being forced into the situation creates the perception of acceptance.  Unless I am truly and fully disrespectful of the beliefs of those that ordered me to be there, it forces me to observe and participate regardless of how useless or ignorant I believe such services to be.

"Now be seated, please stand, bow your heads in prayer..."  All of these actions are calculated in deference to and in acceptance of a superstition which I have been forced to participate in and accept, until such time as I am permitted to act of my own free will again.

This above all, to thy own self be true...
I do not, and will not, bow my head in prayer.  I also refuse to kneel in compliance to a religion or god I firmly deny because I believe in no god and will not show deference to one out of self respect and acknowledgment of my own reason.

Were I to not stand, kneel, sit or bow in a church at the appointed time, people would see that as a lack of respect.  So, having forced me to be there, the same people who have disrespected my wish not to be a part of their superstition, and have discounted my belief that it is ignorant superstition would in turn deride me for being disrespectful of their religion?

That is the situation that the religious place the atheistic in. 
1. Show respect for that which you have no respect, or;
2. Disrespect the dearly held beliefs of your comrades, colleagues and friends.

PS If there is a CO imposing Evangelical beliefs on a unit either overtly or covertly he is not a good leader and places himself in a position of being in violation of several regulations and indeed the policy of the CF when it comes to religious practice. I would say the same of a leader who is playing favorites in any circumstance be it hockey, drinking, promiscuity etc is a very poor leader indeed. He should check his little cheat card that he was given on "Qualities of Leadership." His RSM should be having a few candid no holds barred chats with him or her as well INHO as well as the Unit chaplain.

Absolutely.

 

[Reccesoldier]

So, is atheism a religion?  Does it have greater rights than other religions?  You are still not speaking up for those of other religious denominations who might disagree with the specific religious components selected for any one occasion.  I can recall no recent incidents of soldiers walking off parade because the Padre wasn’t “theirs”.  Can you? Please enlighten me and provide recorded examples.

If your regiment was being presented a new Colour, would you walk off the parade when the Padre showed up to consecrate it? 

Don’t presume that the absence of religion for me at any ceremony might be equivalent to being  commanded to go without religion.  Don’t presume my level of religious activity or preference, for you may well be very wrong.  Neither am I perturbed if I don’t profess the specific religious direction of the Padre that might show up.  I am above taking such personal actions that might disrupt a broader ceremony of which religion is but one small component.  Tolerating it doesn’t mean I enjoy or agree with it.

Would not “living and letting live” include being strong enough not to disrupt ceremonies that any of those around you choose to find strength in?  Wouldn’t it include being strong enough not to challenge the sense of support it provides them, even if you chose not to draw any yourself?

Your individual presence may not be required, but the perception that you stand in solidarity with your fellow soldiers is certainly an aspect to be considered.  You don’t know how deeply they believe or care; nor will they know your personal thoughts, but that perception of a united body does have a strengthening effect when it matters.  Is walking away worth the possibility that one of your fellow soldiers might think you are walking away, not from religious content, but from the remembrance of his fallen brother?


We’re not talking about directed cross-denominational church parades.  Even when the Army had regular Church parades, soldiers went to the Church of their choosing.  Military ceremonies that include some religious content, whether that be a Remembrance Ceremony, presentation of Colours, or whatever the lawful commanders may choose, are generic and all-encompassing, and modern Padres are quite sensitive to that aspect.  Those events no more “make” you a Christian than it does the Jewish soldier standing politely beside you. 

Standing on parade, mimicking the motions of a ceremony, reciting words ….. none of these equal “giving up your free will” unless your will is so weak that it collapses in the presence of such requirements.

How about taking the time to actually read what I have written!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have said more than once that I am speaking about being ordered to attend a purely religious ceremony for which there is no military purpose, based only on the grounds that someone thinks that I should, and that person using his/her rank believes that he has the "right" to do it!

 

[Michael OLeary]

Nor have I claimed that anyone is able to make me believe merely by going through the motions. 

No, you said this:

For me, and speaking specifically about being forced to go to church parade, I felt that I was imposing on the religious. 

Which implied that it affected you, not by oppressing you, but by the feelings you would project upon others to satisfy your own preference not to be there.  The complaint, if made to support your description would be that of the more religious soldiers who should feel imposed upon by your presence.  Did any complain?  Most Christians would actually be welcoming, and perhaps even sympathetic to your discomfort if they knew.

 

[Gunner98]

As a believer, but not very adherent to Sunday church routine, I do not think that religion or politics belong on a CO's parade, at a Soldier's Festive Dinner (new vogue term to replace Men's Christmas Dinner) or at a Mess dinner.  If superiors deem it necessary to invoke praise or give thanks there are many non-religious manners - a few moments of personal silent reflection is really what many have stated here should be given.  I have seen it done on many occasions over the last five years or so.  A superior officer need not impose his religious beliefs on his soldiers.

The removal of headdress was discussed much, much earlier in this topic and is not essential to Remembrance unless you are entering a Legion (and then only if your religion does not demand that you wear a turban.)  How does one remove a turban or hijab to adhere to the CO's unnecessary order to remove headdress?

A slightly different take on these issues:

Since I have not yet deployed to the Sandbox, can someone shed some light on the ramp ceremonies - whether prayers are said and does the International Parade - remove headdress - in all of the photos I have seen headdress are in place.

Is it my imagination or is the movement to having "Memorials" for soldiers in arenas and community centres an easy way for the military to defer massive church parades.

How would the strong debaters of late in this thread present their views to the very religious family members of a recently deceased Cdn soldier?



Edit for spelling.

 

[SeaDog]

I must say, that after carefully following this post, that most of you are missing the essence of whay reccesoldier is saying.  He is not advocating the removal of religion from the CF, nor is he a proponent of walking off parade due to a religious component.  He is making specific reference to being forced to participate in purely religious ceremonies as a member of the CF (eg church parade).  Even then he is not saying it is a slight to him, but rather not fair to those who DO believe.  He is saying this because he is a man of personal conviction and will not show deference to what he believes to be a falsehood...in turn this may be taken as insult to the very people that forced him into the situation to begin with.  I may not agree with you completely, reccesoldier, but I hate to stand by and see words placed into your mouth.

 

[Michael OLeary]

How about taking the time to actually read what I have written!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have said more than once that I am speaking about being ordered to attend a purely religious ceremony for which there is no military purpose, based only on the grounds that someone thinks that I should, and that person using his/her rank believes that he has the "right" to do it!

The post by tonykeene that started this round of debate WAS NOT solely about DIRECTED CHURCH PARADES.  YOU have chosen to alter the direction of the debate, claiming that is the sole focus, because it supports your argument.  YOU chose to ignore discussion of alternative ceremonies because your logic was being successfully challenged.

 

[Reccesoldier]

The complaint, if made to support your description would be that of the more religious soldiers who should feel imposed upon by your presence.  Did any complain?  Most Christians would actually be welcoming, and perhaps even sympathetic to your discomfort if they knew.

Dear me, you really can't be this obtuse.

I don't care what the Christians think, what they want or what they don't want or how accommodating they would be.  For crying out loud!

It isn't about what they want!

Would you claim that sexually harassed woman shouldn't feel that way because her abuser was really just a nice guy that was really into her?

:brickwall:

 

[Michael OLeary]

Dear me, you really can't be this obtuse.

I don't care what the Christians think, what they want or what they don't want or how accommodating they would be.  For crying out loud!

It isn't about what they want!

Would you claim that sexually harassed woman shouldn't feel that way because her abuser was really just a nice guy that was really into her?

So now being at a religious ceremony is equivalent to being raped for an atheist?

 

[the 48th regulator]

I must say, that after carefully following this post, that most of you are missing the essence of whay reccesoldier is saying.  He is not advocating the removal of religion from the CF, nor is he a proponent of walking off parade due to a religious component.  He is making specific reference to being forced to participate in purely religious ceremonies as a member of the CF (eg church parade).  Even then he is not saying it is a slight to him, but rather not fair to those who DO believe.  He is saying this because he is a man of personal conviction and will not show deference to what he believes to be a falsehood...in turn this may be taken as insult to the very people that forced him into the situation to begin with.  I may not agree with you completely, reccesoldier, but I hate to stand by and see words placed into your mouth.

So what you are saying is ones personal views, outweigh those of the majority?

You do not believe in a units cohesion in that one can participate in such a ceremony, which is part of Regimental tradition, because one is not strong enough in their beliefs and that he may be converted?

Now there is a mouthful that I will be accused of shoving in someones gob, but, why must the religious majority practice tolerance, when the non religious minority refuse??

dileas

tess

 

[Reccesoldier]

I must say, that after carefully following this post, that most of you are missing the essence of whay reccesoldier is saying.  He is not advocating the removal of religion from the CF, nor is he a proponent of walking off parade due to a religious component.  He is making specific reference to being forced to participate in purely religious ceremonies as a member of the CF (eg church parade).  Even then he is not saying it is a slight to him, but rather not fair to those who DO believe.  He is saying this because he is a man of personal conviction and will not show deference to what he believes to be a falsehood...in turn this may be taken as insult to the very people that forced him into the situation to begin with.  I may not agree with you completely, reccesoldier, but I hate to stand by and see words placed into your mouth.

Thanks...  Someone is paying attention.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Thanks...  Someone is paying attention.

We're all paying attention, we're just not agreeing with you.

 

[Reccesoldier]

The post by tonykeene that started this round of debate WAS NOT solely about DIRECTED CHURCH PARADES.  YOU have chosen to alter the direction of the debate, claiming that is the sole focus, because it supports your argument.  YOU chose to ignore discussion of alternative ceremonies because your logic was being successfully challenged.

And you chose to respond to me without having read what I wrote?

Dear me.

 

[the 48th regulator]

And you chose to respond to me without having read what I wrote?

Dear me.

No,

Not agreeing with what you wrote, big difference.

dileas

tess

 

[Danjanou]

Ok We've reached that point again.

Thread locked for 24 hours to give everyone a chance to cool down before we cross the line here.

Danjanou Mil.Net Staff

 

[armyvern]

For me, and speaking specifically about being forced to go to church parade, I felt that I was imposing on the religious. 

But also, being forced into the situation creates the perception of acceptance.  Unless I am truly and fully disrespectful of the beliefs of those that ordered me to be there, it forces me to observe and participate regardless of how useless or ignorant I believe such services to be.

"Now be seated, please stand, bow your heads in prayer..."  All of these actions are calculated in deference to and in acceptance of a superstition which I have been forced to participate in and accept, until such time as I am permitted to act of my own free will again.

This above all, to thy own self be true...
I do not, and will not, bow my head in prayer.  I also refuse to kneel in compliance to a religion or god I firmly deny because I believe in no god and will not show deference to one out of self respect and acknowledgment of my own reason. 

Were I to not stand, kneel, sit or bow in a church at the appointed time, people would see that as a lack of respect.  So, having forced me to be there, the same people who have disrespected my wish not to be a part of their superstition, and have discounted my belief that it is ignorant superstition would in turn deride me for being disrespectful of their religion?

That is the situation that the religious place the atheistic in.   
1. Show respect for that which you have no respect, or;
2. Disrespect the dearly held beliefs of your comrades, colleagues and friends.

Whoaaa. Slow down a little bit. It's been a VERY long time since the days when we non-believers were forced to attend a Church Parade. That is not the case anymore. But, even when I was forced to attend Church parade (Cornwallis), I did not have to partake in the ceremony that was happening; rather, I was seated in the gathering room (sorry - don't know what's it's actual name is) ... eating the donuts and drinking the coffee that were laid out. Except of course for the first Church parade that I was forced to attend (the Protestant one ... where I also sat in another room reading) ... after that first one, when I heard the Catholics had coffee and donuts -- guess where I went? So, yes I WAS forced to attend church parade as opposed to being allowed to remain in the shacks totally unsupervised as a recruit, but I was not forced to participate in the actual religious cermony nor did I participate. Do I like being forced to go into a church? No, not really but that was the extent of it -- there was no participation in religious ceremony forced on me.

I've been in a great many churchs and some mosques too. Funerals happen in those sometimes; funerals of my friends and fellow soldiers. I go. When they pray or the fact that the memorial service is held in a house of religion ... is not INTENDED to discriminate against me personally. That's where your analogy linking this to blacks/whites & buses goes wrong. That was done with the intent to EXCLUDE & DISCRIMINATE, a prayer at a funeral or on a Parade is NOT done with that intent.

Mimic the actions? I've NEVER been forced to mimic the actions. While the others have their heads bowed and I'm looking around --- I see many others looking around too. Perhaps they are athiests, perhaps not. I certainly don't feel excluded, nor have I ever been given a blast for not bowing my head with the others. Nor have I been treated as "not part of the team" -- or even felt that way due to my Athiesm.

When the command comes to "remove headdress" I do. I can also stand there and look around without my headdress on while they pray. But, I've seen yarmuckles not removed ... and headscarves not removed ... and those people were treated just like me ... part of the team. Most of us realize that there is no "I" in team. So why should that team which is made up of so many diverse folks ... cave to my personal non-beliefs when I am being forced to mimic nothing? Removing headdress itself is NOT a religious act itself to me.

PS ... In the Muslim countries that I have been to, I also stopped whatever I was doing (if downtown and in the presence of Muslims) when the prayer call call over the loudspeakers and remained silent while they did their thing. That's not forcing me to mimic them; I call it respecting their right to pray to their God.

"Show respect for that which you have no respect?" That's pretty dire. I don't believe in God, but I can respect others right to ... after all they respect my right NOT to. I guess it's all in the context -- I believe I'm respecting the others right to pray and practice their beliefs, I don't believe that respecting their rights means that I'm "respecting" (I'd use the term "complying with their beliefs" myself, because I DO respect all Religions -- they just aren't for me personally) their religion itself. Nor do I feel that by showing that respect to their rights, that my rights are being infringed upon or that I am caving and not being true to myself.

 

[McG]

Someone above mentions we are a Christian society, ethical - the good Samaritans  . . .

I'm taking this quote a little out of context, but it introduces an interesting question.  Are we really a Christian society?  We do share many of the same ethical & philosophical views of the world, but I suspect this is more the result of the Christian society that we were in past generations.  Despite the fact that many people will identify with the religion of their parents on census forms, ID disks & what not; I suspect we are in fact largely a nation of closet Agnostics.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I'm taking this quote a little out of context, but it introduces an interesting question.  Are we really a Christian society?

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo30a.htm

Based on Statistics, I would say yes.

We do share many of the same ethical & philosophical views of the world, but I suspect this is more the result of the Christian society that we were in past generations.  Despite the fact that many people will identify with the religion of their parents on census forms, ID disks & what not; I suspect we are in fact largely a nation of closet Agnostics.

And I suspect that you are taking your views, and believe that it pertains to all.

No, I feel we are a Christian society, and many people do practice their religion.  Specifically in this theme, Christians.

dileas

tess

 

[McG]

Based on Statistics, I would say yes.

But again, this is just the religion that people claim on a census.  I've spoken with many who claim a religion yet they do not actively participate and when asked about their religion they know little to nothing about it.  At the same time, how many in those statistic are the prudent agnostic going through the motions "just in case"?  The Atheist will clearly state there is no religion.  The agnostic may waffle. 

And I suspect that you are taking your views, and believe that it pertains to all.

I'm certainly not applying the theory to "all" but to an unquantified "many"

 

[McG]

. . . I will admit, my theory is incredibly unscientific in that it can neither be proved nor disproved.  But I do think it is anecdotally supportable.

 

[the 48th regulator]

But again, this is just the religion that people claim on a census.  I've spoken with many who claim a religion yet they do not actively participate and when asked about their religion they know little to nothing about it.  At the same time, how many in those statistic are the prudent agnostic going through the motions "just in case"?  The Atheist will clearly state there is no religion.  The agnostic may waffle.  
I'm certainly not applying the theory to "all" but to an unquantified "many"

When I went to mass yesterday, the church was packed to capacity, so it seems that Christians to me are practicing.  Therefore, and this is not me being surly, I refute your theory based on my findings.

You see where this is going?  You have talked to a few people, so now you have the opinion that Canadians only go through the motions and claim that they practice.  You now feel you must broadcast your findings here.  I on the other hand, who does practice Christianity, have found the opposite of what you claim.

This will just become another long drawn out battle of the opinions of religion, much like the one that was just locked.

Do we really need to drag another one out into the mud again??

dileas

tess