Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[Reccesoldier]

Our society is clearly based on Christian morality and ethos.

Though, like you I doubt the commitment of many Canadians to a specific religion, even though they may continue to self identify with the one they were born with.

I'm an Atheist, have been since before I was a teenager.  I have dabbled in the superstitious and even the mystical but I have never really bought the idea that something which exists outside of reality/existence can be real.

My wife on the other hand claims a belief in god, but in all the years we've been married, and even before I can not remember her entering a church for a service; a wedding or a funeral for sure, but never a Sunday service.

 

[McG]

You see where this is going?  You have talked to a few people, so now you have the opinion that Canadians only go through the motions and claim that they practice. 

You're twisting my words still.  Again, I'm not applying the theory to "all" Canadians but to an unquantified "many" Canadians.

There will be no reason to lock this thread if people can avoid becoming angry & bellicose. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

You're twisting my words still.  Again, I'm not applying the theory to "all" Canadians but to an unquantified "many" Canadians.

There will be no reason to lock this thread if people can avoid becoming angry & bellicose. 

C'mon now,

Now you are playing on the symantics of words, all or many, I still refute your Theory.  You made and observation, stated and opinion, and I disagree with your opinion based on my observations.

My point is, do we really need to dig the religious tit for tat again, other than to satisfy each others opinions??

dileas

tess

 

[Reccesoldier]

MCG, I believe your theory is correct, but it has little to do with the structure of our society.  The fact is that this country was constructed based on those christian principals regardless of how dearly held (or not) they are today.  The impetus behind our law, social norms, and even many of our customs are derived from that historical reality.

I'm an atheist, my wife is a non-practicing christian, my children have never gone to a service in their lives but we celebrate Christmas, I for my family, and they because of the tradition. 

 

[McG]

My point is, do we really need to dig the religious tit for tat again, other than to satisfy each others opinions??

Not for satisfying personal opinions; for discussion.  Discussion hurts nobody, and perhaps I am wrong and there is some piece of evidence which could prove/disprove my theory.  Discussion may bring that bit of evidence out.  As it stands now, there is my opinion based on talking to many people of various religions & your opinion based on observations within the Catholic Church.  Perhaps some would accept my theory is wrong because the "many" is in fact a "small minority"?  Would this make a difference in defining our society?    Maybe we are more of a secular society with a plurality of Christians?  Lets not stifle the discussion for other now.

 

[McG]

MCG, I believe your theory is correct, but it has little to do with the structure of our society.  The fact is that this country was constructed based on those christian principals regardless of how dearly held (or not) they are today.  The impetus behind our law, social norms, and even many of our customs are derived from that historical reality.

Agree fully here, and accept this within my theory.  But I do believe the distinction is relevant in how we as a a society consciously choose to evolve/structure ourselves into the future.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Agree fully here, and accept this within my theory.  But I do believe the distinction is relevant in how we as a a society consciously choose to evolve/structure ourselves into the future.

A good point with regards to discussion.

As I stated earlier, 9 am Mass was at full capacity.  There were people standing in the Entrance hallway, and the spare room had all seats filled.

This was in Scarborough, St. Barnabus Church.  To me, Canadian Christians still openly and avidly practice.

Those are my findings, hope this helps.

dileas

tess

 

[Reccesoldier]

Agree fully here, and accept this within my theory.  But I do believe the distinction is relevant in how we as a a society consciously choose to evolve/structure ourselves into the future.

I disagree that our society/any society with the exception of one undergoing a full fledged revolution either physical (like Iraq) or cultural (think Mao's China) does consciously evolve.  Other than those extreme events society is on auto-pilot and the change we see is incremental and serendipitous.

 

[midgetcop]

I know I'm jumping into this conversation kind of late, but I think that MCG raises a valid question. And this is all anecdotal of course....but I know of many people who would ultimately consider themselves 'Christian' if asked directly, but don't actively attend church on a regular basis. It wouldn't be fair to question whether these people are "true" Christians, because who else would be the ultimate authority on one's spiritual validity other than the person themselves? But I personally don't feel that the current statistical numbers prove much in terms of how 'Christian' a nation we are. Yes, we were founded by Christians. Sure, we celebrate Christmas and Easter, and work shorter hours on Sunday. But are these just cultural traditions or do they truly have any religious meaning anymore? For some they do, but for most people I know, definitely not. I realize that I may be missing out on many other laws and traditions...I'd be curious to know more of the Christian roots of our society.

Of course, my personal experiences can be affected by living in a culturally/religiously diverse city like Toronto. As an atheist, it could be influenced by those whom I choose to become friends with. It can be influenced by being raised in a household pretty well devoid of all but the most watered down ideas of religion. 

 

[Goose]

Okay, Here's my 2 cents. It's not any more or less valid than anyone elses out there, but hey- I think that I might have a point here. So the guy didn't want to take his hat off. He believed that he was standing up for his own ideologies, and I respect that, but here's the problem; does taking off a hat during prayer necessarily presuppose a belief or acceptance of a deity? Of course not. The guy can be as agnostic, aethiest, buddhist, catholic, whatever- as he want's too. Following that order is not a rejection of the non-believers religiousity or some conformity to a faith system. It should be done because A. you were ordered to do it, and B. out of respect for those believers who are in the ranks all around you on the floor. You don't have to adopt the religion- but if taking off a hat is going on one hand to appear disrespectful to your superiors and peers alike, while on the other hand promote commradship (or at the very least, not provoke hostility/resentment), then just do it. Religion is a personal and internal thing... wadge your battles there.

 

[McG]

So the guy didn't want to take his hat off. He believed that he was standing up for his own ideologies, and I respect that, but here's the problem; does taking off a hat during prayer necessarily presuppose a belief or acceptance of a deity? Of course not.

Yeah.  We moved past that 20ish pages ago.

 

[OldSolduer]

One of the freedoms guaranteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is freedom of religion. That is to worship whatever god you want, or NOT worship, if you don't beleive in religion.It's personal choice.
Legally, the court made the right decision.
Legally the officer doesn't have to remove his headdress. Morally he is OBLIGATED to remove his headress to show respect for the others.

 

[Ak.abdale]

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but from reading this post all the way through,I have noticed that the atheists and agnostics alike seem to have a heck of a time trying to get this point through their heads. I am not saying all of them are like this I have agnostic friends who I can have sensible conversations with without him pulling out the f-shot or the blame card. As a Jew currently going to a Catholic school I see this stuff everyday ,and the intolerance and disrespect a few of my friends and I face are just absurd. My point is ,I think everyone just needs wake-up call to the new world. Things have change and people cant be as intolerant and self-centered as they are.
            My two cents

Ak.abdale

 

[Reccesoldier]

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but from reading this post all the way through,I have noticed that the atheists and agnostics alike seem to have a heck of a time trying to get this point through their heads.  I am not saying all of them are like this I have agnostic friends who I can have sensible conversations with without him pulling out the f-shot or the blame card. As a Jew currently going to a Catholic school I see this stuff everyday ,and the intolerance and disrespect a few of my friends and I face are just absurd. My point is ,I think everyone just needs wake-up call to the new world. Things have change and people cant be as intolerant and self-centered as they are.
            My two cents

Ak.abdale

What point is that?

 

[armyvern]

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but from reading this post all the way through,I have noticed that the atheists and agnostics alike seem to have a heck of a time trying to get this point through their heads. I am not saying all of them are like this I have agnostic friends who I can have sensible conversations with without him pulling out the f-shot or the blame card. As a Jew currently going to a Catholic school I see this stuff everyday ,and the intolerance and disrespect a few of my friends and I face are just absurd. My point is ,I think everyone just needs wake-up call to the new world. Things have change and people cant be as intolerant and self-centered as they are.
             My two cents

Ak.abdale

Well, let this athiest assure you that I am a firm believer in "to each, their own" ... at home, at work, and on the parade square, hats on -- or hats off.

 

[Ak.abdale]

What point is that?

The point is that people in general people 'have to wake up and smell the roses'. Canada and other countries around the world are very multicultural and we have to respect everyone, no matter who they are. We also have to respect their religion , and even if we don't agree with it ,or like it we should be as courteous as if it is our own.

 

[Reccesoldier]

The point is that people in general people 'have to wake up and smell the roses'. Canada and other countries around the world are very multicultural and we have to respect everyone, no matter who they are. We also have to respect their religion , and even if we don't agree with it ,or like it we should be as courteous as if it is our own.

Absolutely, it also means that we have to respect peoples right to no religion.

The whole removing head dress thing is a red herring.  This guy just wanted to play the religion card, or should I say the anti-religion card not to prove a point, or even to win a concession, but just to poke believers in the eye with a sharp stick.

Having said that there could be other instances where I would whole heartedly support an act of defiance like this, but there would truly need to be some infringement on the persons rights.  But as noted pages and pages ago in this thread, those things don't happen in the CF any more, at least not regularly, intentionally or on a grand scale like they used to way back when the world was made in Black and White.

 

[Ak.abdale]

I totally agree with you that we should respect even non-religious people.
"Having said that there could be other instances where I would whole heartedly support an act of defiance like this, but there would truly need to be some infringement on the persons rights."
Can you give me an example? This topic is a very good argument and in law I could use this , but I need some points from the other perspective. Your contribution is much appreciated.

 

[Reccesoldier]

I totally agree with you that we should respect even non-religious people.
"Having said that there could be other instances where I would whole heartedly support an act of defiance like this, but there would truly need to be some infringement on the persons rights."
Can you give me an example? This topic is a very good argument and in law I could use this , but I need some points from the other perspective. Your contribution is much appreciated.

Being ordered to attend a church parade.  Being singled out or punished for your disbelief.

The latter one of these was recently in the news in the US. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iTPjkhPtGfRjsMUS9Q_F95TRAdcQD8V7JRIO0

Like I said though, this does not happen with any regularity in the CF.  Just as with other forms of discrimination though you can never say never.

 

[Ak.abdale]

Thank you for the link and the examples.