Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[combat_medic]

Add me to the long list of NREs already present.

A year and a half ago, I attended the consecration of my regimental colours at a church. It occurred directly after the Remembrance Day services, in fact we were marched there right from the cenotaph, so this is probably the closest you can get to being "ordered" to go.

That being said, there were a large number of people in attendance of different faiths, or more NREs like myself. Rather than raise a ruckus or cry foul to the powers that be, we sat in the church, mostly did not recite the prayers, and removed our headdresses, as we were in a place of worship, and it's a respectful thing to do.

The ceremony itself was a far cry from an attempt to force religion on anyone. Quite the contrary, I think the padres who conducted the service made every attempt to make those of different faiths feel welcome, and made gestures and notes to all major religious groups. Considering the widly diverse group they were addressing (it was in downtown Vancouver, after all), I think it was done with an enormous amount of tact and respect.

I have always felt that the CF has been more than accommodating to those of different faiths. Hell, on my QL2, there was a Mormon on my course who was going to be in the field on a Sunday, so he brought a white shirt out with him, cleaned himself up, and was able to do a small ceremony for himself and a mormon from another platoon. This was in the middle of our FTX.

Being an NRE myself, I'm very aware of the presence of religion in a lot of the facets of life. Everything from our judicial system to marriage tries to invoke religion in some way or another, and I think the CF is actually at the forefront of cultural and religious acceptance, to be quite frank.

 

[orange.paint]

Ill start off by saying I'm not a christian.When I enrolled 7 years ago I got sworn in with a non religious oath.Basically the same as the other with the God piece omitted.

"I, ……………, do Solemnly swear (affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors according to law."

I have never been religious,my parents gave me the choice at birth.And besides a few trips to sunday school as a child I have never been to a church service.Now that my background has been established I wish to ask the members of the page about their views on religion and the CF.

This is usually a touchy subject for most.The question was brought up to me by a student a while back and having a few personal opinions on the subject I'm looking for the views/written law of other members.

About 6 years ago as a Trooper I was FORCED to go to a funeral in a Protestant church in Petawawa.I'm not the kind of guy who tries to stand out,make a battle out of every little thing however I disagreed with the senior leadership forcing many troops to go to this funeral.

A member of the CF had hung themselves,and due to our connection with this person we all had to attend.As a member (like myself or Muslims etc)is it morally right to force a member to go to a place of worship?When all his papers/dogtags says NRE?Suicide is totally against my beliefs,and if someone offed themselves I could care less of that person.My personal view which doesn't weight in at all I understand.However now as a leader in a troop is it legal for me to force a member to attend a religious ceremony other than his/her own?

As for prayer when we lose a member and the padre comes to do a group prayer.I will bow my head in RESPECT for the fallen.I will not during prayer.And I know I'm not alone as you see many other members doing the same.

So my main question would be:

If on paper (CF document) a member has NRE (no religion expressed...as No religion is not on the forum when you join) can he/she be forced to attend unit church services?Was it incorrect when our leadership made 5 friends and I (all whom are Mcpl except for myself now)go to a religious ceremony we did not agree with?

 

[aesop081]

NOTE TO ALL....

The last few threads on this very subject turned into major gongshows.......dont let this one go in the same direction.

army.ca staff

 

[the 48th regulator]

We are not going through this argument again.

About 6 years ago as a Trooper I was FORCED to go to a funeral in a Protestant church in Petawawa.I'm not the kind of guy who tries to stand out,make a battle out of every little thing however I disagreed with the senior leadership forcing many troops to go to this funeral.

You were made to respect the faith of the deceased, have respect for that, and not be so selfish.

You can work with them, then respect their last wishes.  It has nothing to do with you adhering, and then converting to their beliefs.  Have respect for others, as you wish your to be observed.


dileas

tess

 

[Michael OLeary]

Ill start off by saying I'm not a christian.When I enrolled 7 years ago I got sworn in with a non religious oath.Basically the same as the other with the God piece omitted.

"I, ……………, do Solemnly swear (affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors according to law."

I have never been religious,my parents gave me the choice at birth.And besides a few trips to sunday school as a child I have never been to a church service.Now that my background has been established I wish to ask the members of the page about their views on religion and the CF.

This is usually a touchy subject for most.The question was brought up to me by a student a while back and having a few personal opinions on the subject I'm looking for the views/written law of other members.

About 6 years ago as a Trooper I was FORCED to go to a funeral in a Protestant church in Petawawa.I'm not the kind of guy who tries to stand out,make a battle out of every little thing however I disagreed with the senior leadership forcing many troops to go to this funeral.

A member of the CF had hung themselves,and due to our connection with this person we all had to attend.As a member (like myself or Muslims etc)is it morally right to force a member to go to a place of worship?When all his papers/dogtags says NRE?Suicide is totally against my beliefs,and if someone offed themselves I could care less of that person.My personal view which doesn't weight in at all I understand.However now as a leader in a troop is it legal for me to force a member to attend a religious ceremony other than his/her own?

As for prayer when we lose a member and the padre comes to do a group prayer.I will bow my head in RESPECT for the fallen.I will not during prayer.And I know I'm not alone as you see many other members doing the same.

So my main question would be:

If on paper (CF document) a member has NRE (no religion expressed...as No religion is not on the forum when you join) can he/she be forced to attend unit church services?Was it incorrect when our leadership made 5 friends and I (all whom are Mcpl except for myself now)go to a religious ceremony we did not agree with?

If it's not a church/synagoge/chapel/mosque you personally recognize, then it's just a building and a place you are being paraded.

If it's not a ceremony you recognize personally, then it's simply a series of events you have been ordered to attend.

If it's not your chosen form of worship, then you cannot be "forced" to acknowledge a religion or a diety.

As noted, it is respect for a comrade.  Acting appropriately, regardless of your personal beliefs, is respectful and proper.

Stop making it about YOU.

 

[orange.paint]

This isn't about me.I went to the service no complaining etc.However it's about what a member can legally be ordered to do.Believe me I have in the past and will most likely continue to go to pay respects.I usually if its a civilian friend attend the wake or go prior to the service.

It's not all about me it's about the legality of it.That's it.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Respect, should not come under worrying about legality.

You were "Forced"  Look at it as being respective of his beliefs. 

Were you forced to participate in any way like those that were members of his church?  Other than attending to show your respect for the dead, what grievous religious act did you perform?

dileas

tess

 

[muskrat89]

If it is the appropriate thing to do, then a) You shouldn't have to be "forced" and b) What difference does the legality make?

 

[Michael OLeary]

This isn't about me.I went to the service no complaining etc.However it's about what a member can legally be ordered to do.Believe me I have in the past and will most likely continue to go to pay respects.I usually if its a civilian friend attend the wake or go prior to the service.

It's not all about me it's about the legality of it.That's it.

Then prove that the order was illegal.  I don't believe you will be able to, and opinions expressed here about how you felt hard done by do not support that presumption.  It sounds a lot like whining.

 

[orange.paint]

Respect, should not come under worrying about legallity.

You were "Forced"  Look at it as being respective of his beleifs. 

dileas

tess

+1 with regards to the respect.However according to CF law if I make for an example a Muslim member attend a christain church could I get charged?Can I really force him to attend the christain service?

Then prove that the order was illegal.  I don't believe you will be able to.

Thats what I'm ASKING.NOT TELLING.

 

[a78jumper]

If this is the worst thing you will be "forced" to do in both your life and career, you will lead a very very charmed existance. Funerals are not for the dead, thet are for the living. Perhaps there were family, friends etc in attendance, and it would have looked pretty awful if no one showed up like at Eleanor Rigby's funeral. I despise funerals, and especially visitations,and will not be having either when my time comes, but I go out of the respect for the deceased, and more so for those left behind. Redress and see what the system says. :crybaby: I attended many funerals, memorial services and "ramp" type ceremonies for people over the years, often for people I did not even know at all.  Never regretted doing so once.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Thats what I'm ASKING.NOT TELLING.

Then why did you have to situate the estimate with all of your personal tale of woe to simply ASK the question?

You have tainted the discussion from the outset by doing so.

 

[Armymedic]

If it's not a church/synagoge/chapel/mosque you personally recognize, then it's just a building and a place you are being paraded.

If it's not a ceremony you recognize personally, then it's simply a series of events you have been ordered to attend.

If it's not your chosen form of worship, then you cannot be "forced" to acknowledge a religion or a diety.

As noted, it is respect for a comrade.  Acting appropriately, regardless of your personal beliefs, is respectful and proper.

Sounds pretty good to me, you were ordered to a parade where there was a religious ceremony. I have been in several similar situations lately myself. Several in fact, that I did not even know the person who was being honoured. There is no legal thingy about attending a parade honouring a deceased fellow soldier.

 

[orange.paint]

OK let me clear this up.I'm not bitching about going.I understand the whole respect aspect.However as a leader is it legal for you to force a Muslim member to attend a Christian religious ceremony?

Just Legality.I put forced in bold because it was a MUST ATTEND.Not cause I was feeling horribly wronged.

i don't understand the personal character attacks.I'm asking about legality of it all.Saying "I doubt you can find it"isn't really bringing much to the topic.Does anybody know any legal issues with this?

Then why did you have to situate the estimate with all of your personal tale of woe to simply ASK the question?

You have tainted the discussion from the outset by doing so.

As an example.Ok lets say soldier X is a muslim and is forced to go to a satanic cult service didnt sound as realistic.I used mine as an example.I have no problems doing it.Just a background story to illustrate a point.

 

[Spanky]

I don't think you were forced to attend a religious ceremony.  You were ordered to parade at a specific location.  And I agree with the belief that we go to these events as a show of support to the deceased survivors.   If you don't belive in the religion part, fine.  But do believe that the support you demonstrated help some grieving people get over a rough time.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well we have several padres here on site why not IM them and ask for their guidance on the subject? Even if you do not share their faith you can ask them for guidance on religious matters for your troopies.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Just Legality.I put forced in bold because it was a MUST ATTEND.Not cause I was feeling horribly wronged.

i don't understand the personal character attacks.I'm asking about legality of it all.Saying "I doubt you can find it"isn't really bringing much to the topic.Does anybody know any legal issues with this?

You are personally attacking the character of the dead, and his wishes, by posting this thread.

You are stating that your needs, out weigh all others, and you wish to find some sort of legal way to prove it, so that you may benefit in some way.

That is the way I read it.  Pure selfish reasons, if you ask me.

dileas

tess

 

[riggermade]

I am not religous and hate funerals

As a soldier I think it is only right you pay the proper respect to your fellow soldiers if they are deceased

Suck it up and do your duty

You keep bringing up about a Muslim going to a Christian church what if it was the other way around

Bottom line it is your duty as a soldier to pay respect to your fellows

 

[career_radio-checker]

Philosophical rant warning:

My personal belief is that we are social creatures and when we gather to pay our respects to a fellow CF member or any person, the service is more to consoul the family/friends/acquaintances of the deceased person than anything else. It is comforting to know that after death we will have some kind of recognition of our life, whether that takes place in a Church, Mosque, funeral home or Remembrance Day ceremony doesn't really matter as much as the fact it happens. I, thankfully, have only had to attend two funerals, both family members: one in a church and one in a funeral home. I'm not really a religious person myself and have always seen those two funerals as more of "last respects" and "saying goodbye" rather than a religious ceremony.

I hope I never have to go to a military funeral, but if I do, it doesn't matter where it is, I will go to honour the individual and pay my respects to the family.

Now as for religion in my CF life, I've got 'Prot' stamped on my dog tags and I swore in on the bible, have I ever felt forced to play that religious role which I have left since Grd. 10? Nope. Church was there for people who wanted to go, I just simply did not want to go.

As a final word I'd like to say cudos to the Chaplains who have always presented themselves more as counsellors than as priests, for me personally it makes them easier to approach and I can be more open with them.

rant over

 

[Michael OLeary]

Warriors, Obedience and the Rule of Law
by Colonel Kenneth Watkin
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_03/iss_4/CAJ_vol3.4_08_e.pdf

Under both LOAC and Canadian military law there is an obligation to disobey manifestly unlawful orders. In the words of the Supreme Court of Canada orders can and must be obeyed unless they are manifestly unlawful. A manifestly illegal order is one that “offends the conscience of every reasonable or right thinking person. It must be an order which is obviously and flagrantly wrong.”  Such an order must “wave like a black flag above the order given, as a warning saying forbidden.”

A good example of a forbidden order would be one that breaches a bright line rule in the LOAC, such as - do not abuse prisoners. Under the rule of law the substantive law must triumph. Therefore, profoundly immoral utterances by a leader cloaked with the legal authority to issue commands, cannot prevail over the moral obligations established by law.

Firstly, I do not see how you can logically define the order to attend a church parade, regardless of one's personal belief, as "manifestly unlawful". 

You are being ordered to attend a ceremony in which you may have no personal stake in its religious context, therefore for you, it is not a religious ceremony at all.  You are not being ordered to believe in that particular definition of "God", nor will you be required to particpate in rites requiring specific consecration by the Church, such as taking communion.  You are simply there.

Secondly, please explain what part(s) of this explanation you are having trouble with:

If it's not a church/synagoge/chapel/mosque you personally recognize, then it's just a building and a place you are being paraded.

If it's not a ceremony you recognize personally, then it's simply a series of events you have been ordered to attend.

If it's not your chosen form of worship, then you cannot be "forced" to acknowledge a religion or a diety.

As noted, it is respect for a comrade.  Acting appropriately, regardless of your personal beliefs, is respectful and proper.