Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[George Wallace]

tonykeene

Very well written prose.  It does show that you have never been a member of a Combat Unit, nor really experienced their traditions, esprite d'corps, history, etc.  You are writing like an academic who has never held a real job in their life, but feels the need to criticise labour (you pick the job).  You are making these events out to be much more than they really are.  You are pointing at discrimination where there is none.  What you are stating is inflammatory, not curiosity or idle discussion.  I would expect someone who just flaunted their service to know better.

 

[Kat Stevens]

This is a long time ago.  In my beloved Regiment, at a certain point in our history (coff*RV 85*coff)  a church parade was scheduled for the day after 96 hours in a defensive position.  I asked not to attend, as it really wasn't my bag.  My troop Warrant took this as a personal affront, and I was therefore given the option of attending, or putting our newly arrived sproglings through day one of their first 2X10. I chose the 2X10, and for choosing poorly, got to do day two as well.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Very good post indeed,

Many deeply-rooted military traditions involve religion.

It is also rooted in truth, if you wish to be taken seriously at least fill out all of your bio correctly, otherwise leave it blank.

dileas

tess

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well, I've been knocking around the military as long as our medal bedecked NATO traveller. It's always been my experience that no one was forced to go to a church parade, but you didn't get to just sit around while others paraded though. Just like Kat said, there's always something else to be done by those not wishing to attend. For the record I'm also NRE, but have no trouble attending church parades, saying grace when called on, or anything else non denominational when required by the Regiment. I'd hate to think I was that petty I couldn't for the length of the parade, just look inward and reflect on myself. Tours and medals don't make soldiers, it's in your heart.

 

[warrickdll]

I am opposed to the CF organizing religious activities.

Visiting, or attending, someone else's religious ceremony on my own time (the example given was of tourists and Greek temples) is not the same as the CF parading uniformed soldiers to attend a religious ceremony, of their commanders choosing, on Canada's time and Canada's money.

If a soldier finds that they do not have enough time to attend their own religious services then they should ask their RSM for some time off to do so. That should be the only involvement between the CF and religion.

Most soldiers would probably go along with it either way - not really against it - but not really for it either.

For those that are strong supporters of having the CF organizing and running religious parades and ceremonies:
- What is your reasoning for its continuance?
- What are the benefits for the CF?
- Would it hurt to stop having religious content in CF ceremonies?

I have no rebuttals.

 

[George Wallace]

I am sure that after 21 wonderful pages of enlightened discussion, your queries have been answered.  Next?

 

[aesop081]

Cant we all just get along ?

 

[Torlyn]

Here's an idea.  Instead of being offended because you are asked to go to a quasi-religious ceremony, and spouting nonsense about how disrepectful it is to your own belief, do what my XO says.

Attend the ceremonies.  Remove your hat during prayers.  For what reason?  Not because it's your own faith, but look around.  Take off your hat, attend the ceremonies out of respect of your brothers and sisters serving along side you.  Do it out of respect for those that fought and died so would have the right to be a whiny little bi*** when you don't feel like doing something.

Remember, we serve and put our lives on the line to protect your RIGHT to have differing beliefs.

And out of curiousity, if you're here to help protect the downtrodden non-WASP population (who, I'll wager, did NOT ask for help) why on earth choose a handle like tony keene?  :

T

 

[Neill McKay]

If we say that people do not have to have religious beliefs, of any kind, to serve in the CF, then why oh why do so many COs call out the padres whenever they have an important event?  Seen in public, it gives the very simple and clear impression, to anyone watching, that we are all worshipping as one, and that a state religious belief is being imposed.

Add me to the growing list of NREs who don't have the slightest problem with the presence of a religious element in ceremonies.

For a parallel, but non-military example, the Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer (a.k.a. the Iron Ring ceremony) has a religious element to it (and as a Kipling fan, you may be interested to know that he wrote the entire ceremony).  The very sensible advice given to those who attended mine was that everyone should take the text "for its poetic and allegorical value".  That advice fits just as well in a church parade.

In the year 2006, we have to accept that these traditions should now only be used when it is a voluntary gathering.  Marching 250 people up in front of an altar of drums, or a church altar, teaches them nothing.  And how you can use the most divisive factor in humanity to promote cohesion is beyond me.

Perhaps it is, but, notwithstanding a few grumblers, that's exactly what it does.

In other words, don't dump anything.  Don't ban anything.  Just work out ways to expand the parameters.

Sounds good.

 

[warrickdll]

That anyone of us would put up with the religious aspects of any given ceremony is one aspect, and many in this topic have brought up courtesy (etc.).

But there is little mention of what specifically is an OC, CO, or higher doing (that can’t otherwise be accomplished) when they decide to have a religiously based ceremony. Why do they feel the need to issue an order to have their unit go to a church, or to have a Padre conduct prayers?

Despite their religious origins, some military traditions and ceremonies are conducted without the overt religious aspects:
- Saluting when boarding a ship continues without the need of a crucifix on the quarterdeck.
- Having a "Moment of Silence" to honour the fallen works much better than "Let us pray".

Our own individual abilities to be courteous and tolerant should not be an excuse for the committees (that determine military ceremonies in Canada) to lack the ability or imagination to make a few harmless alterations.

 

[paracowboy]

Why do they feel the need to issue an order to have their unit go to a church, or to have a Padre conduct prayers?

in 10 years+ I have yet to see any officer order any soldier to attend a Church service, of any stripe. Regimental ceremonies involving religion, yes. That's called "Army stuff", and being a pagan, I have to find it discriminatory. To anyone with an issue with militray tradition, perhaps you should:
A. get out, because the Army is more than a uniform, and more than a buncha guys milling about;
B. suck it up. You may learn something.
C. refuse to participate and take the charge. Perhaps the attention will make a change that you want to see happen.

 

[warrickdll]

Personal acceptance or rejection during a ceremony has been covered.


But what is the commander's (or committees) intent in keeping the overt religious aspects in the ceremonies?

Military Traditions (Canadian) are not completely static, and the traditions themselves (or why we use them) have their own intent.

The commander's actual intent might not be religious, but in enhancing unit cohesion, discipline, and honour through performing the tradition.


If the religious aspect adds nothing to the intent of the tradition or the intent of the commander, then it only still resides there because no one has bothered to alter it - much like having anachronistic laws still on-the-books.


Others have been very capable of expressing why the alterations should occur. And tradition is easily covered (traditions remain without overtly religious aspects). So what is the intent of all those that feel they will be hurt by the CF altering the religious aspects of certain ceremonies?

 

[paracowboy]

It ain't broke, don't need fixin'. We got more than enough real issues to sort out, this is a non-issue.

 

[Shec]

Here's an idea.  Instead of being offended because you are asked to go to a quasi-religious ceremony, and spouting nonsense about how disrepectful it is to your own belief, do what my XO says.

Attend the ceremonies.  Remove your hat during prayers.  For what reason?  Not because it's your own faith, but look around.  Take off your hat, attend the ceremonies out of respect of your brothers and sisters serving along side you.  Do it out of respect for those that fought and died so would have the right to be a whiny little bi*** when you don't feel like doing something.

Remember, we serve and put our lives on the line to protect your RIGHT to have differing beliefs.

And out of curiousity, if you're here to help protect the downtrodden non-WASP population (who, I'll wager, did NOT ask for help) why on earth choose a handle like tony keene?  :

T

  Bravo & well said. 

Not that I am an exemplar of tolerance but I have been there - a member of a religious minority who went to regimental church parades without a whimper for exactly the reasons Torlyn cites.  And what was the big lesson for me?  Simply respect begets respect.  Respect for your unit, respect for your comrades, respect for those who have worn the hat badge long before you did.  And, in return you earn respect for you.  And with that respect comes tolerance.  So lighten up with the rights agenda seeking accomodation and diversity.  You joined the regimental family, they didn't join you.  You'll get your return on investment when you are ungrudgingly granted whatever dispensation you seek to celebrate your faith's holidays.

I'll add one more observation.  The particular denomination of the Church where a unit worships does not mean recognition of and respect for other faiths in the regimental family are excluded.  The Presbyterian Church of St. Andrew & St. Paul in Montreal, the regimental church of the Black Watch, has  a stained glass window that includes a Star of David placed in memory of  a WW 1  Jewish officer of the Regiment, Lt. M.T. Cohen, M.C., who was killed in action.  Maintaining regimental tradition - yes.  Exclusion - hardly.

 

[warrickdll]

Plenty of examples of those who have, un-begrudged, attended a church service that was not their own.

But the least responsible (by rank) persons ability to obey orders is the red herring of this topic.

This topic begins with a Court Martial Appeal Court ruling that can be summed up like this:
- With great power comes great responsibility.

You do not, as a member of the CF, show up at church or at a religious ceremony, with everyone else from your Unit, by accident. Neither does the Padre go up to the CO on parade and commandeer the proceedings.

COs have more important things to worry about than whether or not their regimental ceremonies or parades will meet the criteria of a Court Martial Appeal Court. Someone (or some committee) seems to be dragging their feet on altering ceremonies so that they will fully fall within the domain of COs.

If your Unit's traditional ceremonies are not suitably free of overt religious content then it is your duty to show due diligence and get it fixed. This is an identified problem - just because it wasn't pointed out (or recognized as such) to the person before you isn't an excuse.

Commanders (whether officers or NCOs) shouldn't be leaving this, already recognized fault, for the junior members to fix by some sort of Court Martial Appeal Court process.

Of all the posts here, none point to a legitimate reason why a CO should role-the-dice of religious content on parade. It must be time consuming and expensive for the CF to crawl through the judicial processes caused by some peoples failure to suck-it-up, grow-up, learn some discipline, and make the required changes.

 

[Franko]

OK folks, let's back up.

OK....beep beep beep beep beep beep    

First of all, I have more than 40 years in, and have four operational tours under my belt, and a chest full of medals.  I have nothing to prove, nothing to apologize for, and no need to justify my privilege and honour of wearing Her Majesty's Canadian uniform.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Absolutely nothing.....unless you're a padre.

4 tours in 40 years eh? I know a few around the Regiment that have done over 10 in under 20.

But I digress.....

I attacked no one personally, and do not expect to be attacked in return.

With your first post in this thread you pretty much came in and threw a "righteous, holy Antioch" grenade.

Religion is a touchy subject....on any site.

You basically came in and said any CF activity involving religion was wrongful to force someone to attend....it is,however....

If it's a parade, such as a consecration, they must attend wouldn't you agree? However if the pers involve have a moral objection...they must bring it to the forefront to their superiors. From there it will be dealt with.

We recently had a parade for a member of my Regiment who died in an accident. There were many different religions present including Muslims and many agnostics. The service was conducted by the padres.

So did anyone have a problem with attending the service....nope.

They were there to pay their respects to the member irregardless of their religion. I've talked to a few afterwards about this and they pretty much say that it really does not bother them in the least, nor do any of the other services that have gone on over the years.

They see it as a "non-denominational" part of any parade.

I do suggest though that Colours should hold exactly the same power for all members of a Regiment, Atheists included.

They do. It honours all that have fallen during the battles on that Colour or Guidon....irregardless of religion.

If we tell people that only a religious blessing can turn a "moth-eaten rag on a worm-eaten pole" into a Colour, we are automatically excluding a large segment of the troops.  (That's Kipling, by the way)

Woopee on Kipling    :

It's pretty much consecrated in a multi-denominational service these days. I'm sure that the "non-believers" find it quite harmless.

Got a problem with the way it's done? Bring it up through the chain of command to your superiors and get it changed.

In the year 2006, we have to accept that these traditions should now only be used when it is a voluntary gathering.  Marching 250 people up in front of an altar of drums, or a church altar, teaches them nothing.  And how you can use the most divisive factor in humanity to promote cohesion is beyond me.

Good intentions.....wrong avenue of approach IMHO. I can think of about a dozen ways of promoting cohesion in a unit without the need of a church parade.

Two Canadian soldiers stand on parade, their medals proclaiming proudly that they have put their lives on the line for what their country stands for.  One is male, the other female, one is white, the other not, one is a sincere believer, the other an equally sincere atheist.  We would not hold to a tradition of proclaiming the superiority of the white race, or the male gender.  We cannot therefore hold to one which says that believers are more accepted than non-believers.  If those soldiers are on parade under orders, nothing should be done that differentiates between them on those three bases.

There is no difference.....at least to me personally.

It's official within the CF.

 

[George Wallace]

You do not, as a member of the CF, show up at church or at a religious ceremony, with everyone else from your Unit, by accident. Neither does the Padre go up to the CO on parade and commandeer the proceedings.

Roger so far.

COs have more important things to worry about than whether or not their regimental ceremonies or parades will meet the criteria of a Court Martial Appeal Court.

Seems you know nothing about LEADERSHIP.  The CO is very much involved in and concerned with these matters.

Someone (or some committee) seems to be dragging their feet on altering ceremonies so that they will fully fall within the domain of COs.

This is an outright idiotic statement.  These ceremonies, as all ceremonies, are strictly formated, but still allow for some minor adjustments by the CO and RSM.  If you ever have the opportunity to serve and show the potential of Leadership, you will be put on a PLQ Crse where you will learn the 19 'Orders' necessary for you to pass a Drill Mutual.  Those 19 Orders, are what every Parade boils down to.

If your Unit's traditional ceremonies are not suitably free of overt religious content then it is your duty to show due diligence and get it fixed. This is an identified problem - just because it wasn't pointed out (or recognized as such) to the person before you isn't an excuse.

You are full of it.  Every Ceremony in the World, when put under the microscope, has its origins in some Religious Ceremony.  Your point is absolute BS and really not at all valid.  It is friggin wingnuts like you who find fault in the most trivial of things and fly off their handle demanding change because their sensibilities have been hurt.  If your sensibilities are hurt, you do not have to stay.....Leave.

Commanders (whether officers or NCOs) shouldn't be leaving this, already recognized fault, for the junior members to fix by some sort of Court Martial Appeal Court process.

What the hell are you talking about?  You are perceiving a fault where there is none.  You have to really be on the Lunatic Fringes to be insulted by other peoples actions.  As you can quite readily see other people are greatly insulted by your actions.  So far, have we all asked; no demanded that you change?  We are not the Borg, we really wouldn't want to assimilate you.  You would ruin the gene pool.

Of all the posts here, none point to a legitimate reason why a CO should role-the-dice of religious content on parade. It must be time consuming and expensive for the CF to crawl through the judicial processes caused by some peoples failure to suck-it-up, grow-up, learn some discipline, and make the required changes.

I think you have finally found the answer.  Suck-it-up Iterator, grow-up, learn some discipline and change your life, as you are truly alienating yourself from the mainstream of society.  You will not fit in unless you make some changes.  Right now you seem to be in the group we call the "Lunatic Fringe". 

 

[warrickdll]

Removing overt religious content from ceremonies will not be the first change the military has experienced or been able to successfully handle.

Instead of falling behind on the issue the CF should get ahead of it. These changes will have to be made (nothing reasonably mentioned to the contrary).

So instead of wasting time and money on lawyers, and on court proceedings that will be failures, make the alterations to the ceremonies and tell those who cannot adjust to move along.

- The wheels will not go flying off.
- Traditions will be maintained and honoured.
- It won't hurt you at all.
- And more importantly, there won't be time wasted moaning and complaining about it.

Do a recce on the years ahead - do you honestly believe that the overt religious content of ceremonies (no matter your personal feelings about them), that you cannot really decline, is going to stand up? If so then state how you believe it will play out that way. If not then get ahead of it before it bowls you over.

This is about religious beliefs. It's not like discussing Boat Cloaks and Gun Barrels. Courts have made decisions on this that (unless you can reasonably give a military need for an exception) you cannot just kick and scream about how it wasn't done that way before.

 

[George Wallace]

This is really nothing.  It is actually all about the rest of the world changing to conform to your ideals.  It only points to your unwillingness to become a productive member of society.  Do you think that your solution is any less offensive to the many, than what is currently a perceived offence of a few......or just you?  Don't you think that much would be lost by stripping tradition from our lives?  It would leave us as illiterate, nonconformist, non-entities

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Yup. Just waiting for someone else to recognise the square peg in the round hole. So once again, this thread spins it's wheels, and once again, it's locked.