Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[xena]

i want one  ;D

You'll have to think first.

>

(Sorry, couldn't resist the zinger!)

 

[the 48th regulator]

You'll have to think first.

>

(Sorry, couldn't resist the zinger!)

God Bless ya Sir,

You beat me to it!!

Speticle, Test, wallet, watch

dileas

tess

 

[deedster]

It comes down, I think, to manners - which the officer referred to above was apparently lacking.  Gramps hit it dead on - this guy was looking for attention and making unnecessary waves.  Maybe he was found Not Guilty at the Court Martial, but he displayed extremely poor form, and showed a distinct lack of judgment (at least as far as can be gleaned from the quote above).
Roy

Roy & Gramps hit the nail on the head, as far as I'm concerned.  I just happen to be into my particular faith, do not begrudge anyone who is not into my faith or any faith for that matter.  I think respect is the magic word, which should automatically beget manners (well, in most cases).  June Callwood, a well-loved Toronto activist who recently passed away, was asked in her dying days whether or not she believed in God.  She replied: "I believe in kindness.  If we can show each other compassion, true compassion, we can make the world better."  I believe that manners are a sign of respect and akin to kindness.  Lack of judgement, well, I've often been guilty of that, but usually to my own detriment.
D2

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

My only confrontation with this issue was when 1 PPCLI consecrated new Colours a few years back. An alter was made of the drums, the Colours were laid on the alter and they were consecrated by the Padres.

Instructions were to remove headdress, not necessarily to pray, but out of respect for the Colours. I do remember some grumblings in the ranks from a (very) few nonbelievers (and one non-Christian), but once the instructions were explained, I do not recall anymore bitching about it. Most seemed to think that it was totally appropriate.

This was a few years ago, maybe about the same time as the initial offence on the coast? (Can't remember, memory not what it used to be).

As long as we approach such issues with points-of-view similar to Roy's (and others) thinking, and use RESPECT as our benchmark, there should be no problems.

I am a Heathen, and while my faith and that practiced by the Padres have almost no similarities whatsoever, when they are sanctifying the colours that my brethren and I will fight, and perhaps even die under, they are sanctifiying it to my gods as well as their own.  Out of respect for the regiment in which we each serve, out of respect for the brethren that march under it, and in the sight of whatever gods we seperately may honour, I will bow my head.  I could care less if a Satanist is blessing the colours; the sanctity comes from the faith of those men and women who march beneath them, and even the most hard core atheiests amongst us can have no doubt about the purity of that faith.  As long as we remain true to the colours we march beneath, and the arms we bear beneath them, that is faith enough in common.  I have no problem with the words being spoken by a Padre of another faith, so long as he treats the colours and the men and women marching beneath them with the same reverence he holds for his own faith.

 

[jbeach95]

Wasn't this issue discussed and the topic locked long ago? Can we really avoid the direction the discussion took last time?

Please, go on. This could be entertaining.



[edited for spelling]

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Thanks JDB for reminding me what I meant to say when I unlocked this yesterday.

Folks, this thread has a very short leash on it, be forewarned.

 

[deedster]

I have no problem with the words being spoken by a Padre of another faith, so long as he treats the colours and the men and women marching beneath them with the same reverence he holds for his own faith.

+1 mainer

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Well thanks to all and apologies to the Mods. I didn't find anything when I looked for the topic but I wasn't looking in the right place I guess.
As a Chaplain in the CF I was reading some case studies on this and wondered what my fellow Army.ca subscribers thought of this subject.
We do have a Jewish Reserve Chaplain now btw....Rabbi Mendelsohn in Ottawa (28 Field Amb)
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=2220

We are in the process of recruiting another Jewish Reserve Chaplain and ongoing dialogue with the Aboriginal Community to come up with ways of recognizing Aboriginal ministry.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[geo]

In Hoc...

don't forget the muslim Iman out in Edmonton.

Also:
In the case of consecrating colours & other activities of the like
1. Sikhs would not remove their turban while prayers were read
2. No member of the colour party will remove his headdress while they have control of the colours.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

In Hoc...

don't forget the muslim Iman out in Edmonton.

Also:
In the case of consecrating colours & other activities of the like
1. Sikhs would not remove their turban while prayers were read
2. No member of the colour party will remove his headdress while they have control of the colours.

Thanks Geo.....he is old news in lots of ways he's been with us for 4 years now and been on tour in Afghanistan.....I just consider Padre (yes he prefers Padre) Suliman Demiray as one of us....and he leaves his headress on for prayer... ;D
a wonderful chaplain who is doing great work

 

[cameron]

This is one of those topics where as a civilian I should probably stay out, but you guys know me by now, when something pisses me off I just can't keep quiet for too long.  First of all from what I understand he was given a legal and reasonable order, he was not being asked to machine gun defenceless POW's.  Therefore refusing to remove his headgear seems like insurbodination to me.  Political correctness is frankly reaching ridiculous extremes, both in the military and civilian world.  What the hell ever happened to being professional and courteous!

Secondly as someone who believes in the power of prayer I would hate to go into harm's way with someone who doesn't even believe in a god.  I don't care what your religion is, whether Hindu, Buddhism, Islam, Bahai Faith, Protestant or Catholic (i'm the latter), but you shouldn't be in a disciplined military organisation where your agnosticism/atheism forces you to the ridiculous extreme of being unprofessional and discourteous.

 

[geo]

going into combat with someone who doesn't believe in god?

What??

uhhh.... what does that do with anything.
Do you think the fella who is agnostic feels safe next to someone who believes in god?

The fellas you are fighting alongside are people you have trained alongside of for at least a year.... they trust you and you trust them..... it's as simple as that.

 

[Roy Harding]

...  I should probably stay out ...

...  but you shouldn't be in a disciplined military organisation where your agnosticism/atheism forces you to the ridiculous extreme of being unprofessional and discourteous.

Hmmm - I'm an atheist.  I don't recall being either unprofessional or discourteous, either here on these forums, or during my service in the CF.  And I certainly don't remember that my personal beliefs FORCED me to do anything - let alone being FORCED to some "ridiculous extreme" of ANY kind.

You should probably pay attention to yourself (the first sentence quoted above seems apropos).


Roy Harding

 

[Gimpy]

This is one of those topics where as a civilian I should probably stay out, but you guys know me by now, when something pisses me off I just can't keep quiet for too long.  First of all from what I understand he was given a legal and reasonable order, he was not being asked to machine gun defenceless POW's.  Therefore refusing to remove his headgear seems like insurbodination to me.  Political correctness is frankly reaching ridiculous extremes, both in the military and civilian world.  What the hell ever happened to being professional and courteous!

Secondly as someone who believes in the power of prayer I would hate to go into harm's way with someone who doesn't even believe in a god.  I don't care what your religion is, whether Hindu, Buddhism, Islam, Bahai Faith, Protestant or Catholic (i'm the latter), but you shouldn't be in a disciplined military organisation where your agnosticism/atheism forces you to the ridiculous extreme of being unprofessional and discourteous.

As with every situation involving religion there are millions of clear-headed, respectful, and sane Athiests/Agnostics. But then there are always the 1/1000th of them who are the most militant in their views and the most vocal. Its the exact same way with Christianity and Islam.

And I think that you seriously need to explain your final point. Just because someone doesn't believe in God it automatically makes them unprofessional? You need to stop letting the actions of a select minority influence your views on the actual majority.

 

[the 48th regulator]

As with every situation involving religion there are millions of clear-headed, respectful, and sane Athiests/Agnostics. But then there are always the 1/1000th of them who are the most militant in their views and the most vocal. Its the exact same way with Christianity and Islam.

And I think that you seriously need to explain your final point. Just because someone doesn't believe in God it automatically makes them unprofessional? You need to stop letting the actions of a select minority influence your views on the actual majority.

Unfortunately, as of late it has been those that have cast off a belief in a higher being that have started the hubub with regards to regulations and associations to religion, would you not agree?

Hence the bad taste with regards to the Godless heathens (    ) and regulations within the military.

dileas

tess

 

[Gimpy]

Unfortunately, as of late it has been those that have cast off a belief in a higher being that have started the hubub with regards to regulations and associations to religion, would you not agree?

Hence the bad taste with regards to the Godless heathens (    ) and regulations within the military.

dileas

tess

Sadly yes, as of now its athiests causing the problems, but maybe in a year or so it will be a few Zoroastrians causing a ruckus because they weren't allowed to pray in front of a fire.

 

[sigpig]

Secondly as someone who believes in the power of prayer I would hate to go into harm's way with someone who doesn't even believe in a god.

As one of the more militant and outspoken atheists around here, I'm glad to see that cooler heads have already pointed out the error of your ways so I didn't have to go all "unprofessional and discourteous" on you  ;D

 

[deedster]

With all due respect to cameron (whose faith I happen to share), I have to agree with Roy & Gimpy, whatever your beliefs are or whichever "power" you believe in, if any, you are first and foremost bound to your unit.  And, yes, in the end it comes down to respect and common courtesy.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Sadly yes, as of now its athiests causing the problems, but maybe in a year or so it will be a few Zoroastrians causing a ruckus because they weren't allowed to pray in front of a fire.

And then at that time his angst will be biased towards them.

C'mon, I do not think that we should be coming down on him, we should collectively be coming down on those that try to circumvent the system, and try to get the 15 minute of fame.

Those that use the "I am of no religion, and you are shoving it down my throat" clause, as a way to say look at me.

I am a practicing Roman Catholic.  Where has anyone seen me profess that other than these types of threads, and my Facebook profile.  Do you not think I get insulted at the digs towards religion,and those that practice it in today's life.  You as a "Liberal" should understand that, considering the string of Roman Catholics that led your party....however, I digress.

dileas

tess

 

[deedster]

And then at that time his angst will be biased towards them.

I am a practicing Roman Catholic.  Where has anyone seen me profess that other than these types of threads, and my Facebook profile.   Do you not think I get insulted at the digs towards religion,and those that practice it in today's life.  You as a "Liberal" should understand that, considering the string of Roman Catholics that led your party....however, I digress.

Tess, +1  PM Inbound