Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
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George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Once again, I think we have reached a consciencis: "Lack of Respect. Poor manners."
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So then, just a bit of a thought I had and am curious about, what are your opinions on a Sihk being on parade? When the order to remove headress is made, by his religious beliefs, he can not remove his headress, so does that change your opinions on the whole issue?
Just looking for opinions, not an argument.
Just looking for opinions, not an argument.
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Springroll said:
Sikhs have served in the Commonwealth for centuries - the Turban is not a hat.
Incidently, I remember one member saying that the Indian Army had a reasonable policy on turbans in its military (where the Sikhs make a significant contribution).
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Okay, so here is something a little thought provoking then.
Joe Blow is ordered to be in a Christian based religious parade. He is not Christian and is in fact Atheist(or whatever other non-christian religion). When prayer comes up, would you expect him to remove his headdress to accomodate your religion?
Like I said, I am not looking for a fight or argument, and will not engage in those when it comes to this topic, just curious to see your opinions on this.
Joe Blow is ordered to be in a Christian based religious parade. He is not Christian and is in fact Atheist(or whatever other non-christian religion). When prayer comes up, would you expect him to remove his headdress to accomodate your religion?
Like I said, I am not looking for a fight or argument, and will not engage in those when it comes to this topic, just curious to see your opinions on this.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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In 1990, our Regimental Colour bearer was a sikh; he wore a turban on parade, for HM Queen Elizabeth II no less (our colonel-in-chief). It was odd in that he had routinely paraded at the unit in a glengarry, which is the standard parade dress. It was also, IIRC, one of, if not the, first parades on which females wore the kilt.
I just stumbled on the correspondence from the various directorates regarding the kilt issue; i think it was the director of Infantry who just said "this is the way it is, let's get on with it." I think it was the right decision - one set of standards, one uniform for those who do the job.
The turban was done in regmental style, with red and white dice and a cap badge central. It raised some eyebrows but personally it didn't bother me. Always wondered if it was a political statement of some kind rather than a religious expression, however.
I just stumbled on the correspondence from the various directorates regarding the kilt issue; i think it was the director of Infantry who just said "this is the way it is, let's get on with it." I think it was the right decision - one set of standards, one uniform for those who do the job.
The turban was done in regmental style, with red and white dice and a cap badge central. It raised some eyebrows but personally it didn't bother me. Always wondered if it was a political statement of some kind rather than a religious expression, however.
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Infanteer said:
I have not seen any of the input from Sikh members on here, and I know it is not considered a hat..I am well aware of that, but to tell me to get over it or to use some common sense it just rude. i asked a simple question which is now proving something to me. That because it is a visible sign of a different religion, then it is ok.
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Michael Dorosh said:
Thank you for your post, Michael. That was the sort of response I was looking for.
Thank you again.
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Let me just run something by you.
A young person from a minority group, say a religious minority and a second generation immigrant, is really keen on joing the CF. This young person goes to the recruiters and asks some questions, one of which is: Since I am not a member of the majority faith, will anything religious be required of me?
The answer of course will be an emphatic no, and the recruiters will fall all over themselves explaining the Charter, DND Human Right policy ad nauseam.
The following Sunday the young person is on the street with some buddies, discussing his imminent enrolment in the local Reserve unit. Suddenly they hear drum and music, see Colours flying, and lo and behold, here comes that very unit, resplendent in scarlet and gold, marching down the main drag. Full of excitement, the young man and his buddies follow along, when suddenly the entire battalion makes a hard left wheel, right up the steps of an Anglican Cathedral. They they place the Colours on the altar and proceed to hold a by-the-numbers religious service, just like a Roman Legion worshipping its Eagles in the time of Caesar Augustus.
When asked, the Regimental Seregeant Major puts his pace stick under his arm and says: "Of course it's compulsory...it's tradition. Didn't hurt me...won't hurt you!"
Mixed message here?
Far too many people in the CF today still believe they can use their authority to make their troops attend religious worship. And they do it.
There is no other government agency that makes its personnel attend or take part in religious ritual. (This has nothing to do with Remembrance Day, or honouring the Fallen. Atheists can do that just as well. In fact, many of "Our Glorious Dead" were non-believers.)
This is the face we put forward. No matter what we say, the CF is seen as a white, male, religiously exclusive group. That's why we only recruit from a base of about 300,000 white boys from the Maritimes, Quebec and the Prairies.
A unit I know has a cohesion problem. The CO has decided he needs to do something about it. His answer? A compulsory church service!
Let's get into the 21st Century, shall we?
A young person from a minority group, say a religious minority and a second generation immigrant, is really keen on joing the CF. This young person goes to the recruiters and asks some questions, one of which is: Since I am not a member of the majority faith, will anything religious be required of me?
The answer of course will be an emphatic no, and the recruiters will fall all over themselves explaining the Charter, DND Human Right policy ad nauseam.
The following Sunday the young person is on the street with some buddies, discussing his imminent enrolment in the local Reserve unit. Suddenly they hear drum and music, see Colours flying, and lo and behold, here comes that very unit, resplendent in scarlet and gold, marching down the main drag. Full of excitement, the young man and his buddies follow along, when suddenly the entire battalion makes a hard left wheel, right up the steps of an Anglican Cathedral. They they place the Colours on the altar and proceed to hold a by-the-numbers religious service, just like a Roman Legion worshipping its Eagles in the time of Caesar Augustus.
When asked, the Regimental Seregeant Major puts his pace stick under his arm and says: "Of course it's compulsory...it's tradition. Didn't hurt me...won't hurt you!"
Mixed message here?
Far too many people in the CF today still believe they can use their authority to make their troops attend religious worship. And they do it.
There is no other government agency that makes its personnel attend or take part in religious ritual. (This has nothing to do with Remembrance Day, or honouring the Fallen. Atheists can do that just as well. In fact, many of "Our Glorious Dead" were non-believers.)
This is the face we put forward. No matter what we say, the CF is seen as a white, male, religiously exclusive group. That's why we only recruit from a base of about 300,000 white boys from the Maritimes, Quebec and the Prairies.
A unit I know has a cohesion problem. The CO has decided he needs to do something about it. His answer? A compulsory church service!
Let's get into the 21st Century, shall we?
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Is that a true story?
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If someone was so insecure and self conscious about their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, that they can't think of any reasonable way to handle this situation without breaking down into tears and bringing up the Charter, then berhaps they'd best reconsider their choice of careers.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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tonykeene
Welcome to Army.ca
Now!
What kind of asinine post was that?
First off you are confusing a lot of things in it. I see that you don't have a problem with "Remembrance Day ceremonies and honouring the Fallen", which I might add have Religious prayers said. You, however, have a problem with the consecration of the Units Colours, which would be a ceremony for pretty much the same reasons. To me you are trying to raise shyte.
The CF does conduct Religious services at various ceremonies that it performs. In all cases they are multi-denominational. In the case of Church Parades, which I might add are very rare these days, no one is forced to go to a Church as there are usually more than one Church/Temple/Synagogue/whatever that members will go to; or it is a multi-denominational service. So get your facts right.
Welcome to Army.ca
Now!
What kind of asinine post was that?
First off you are confusing a lot of things in it. I see that you don't have a problem with "Remembrance Day ceremonies and honouring the Fallen", which I might add have Religious prayers said. You, however, have a problem with the consecration of the Units Colours, which would be a ceremony for pretty much the same reasons. To me you are trying to raise shyte.
The CF does conduct Religious services at various ceremonies that it performs. In all cases they are multi-denominational. In the case of Church Parades, which I might add are very rare these days, no one is forced to go to a Church as there are usually more than one Church/Temple/Synagogue/whatever that members will go to; or it is a multi-denominational service. So get your facts right.
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Let me run something by you... Are you actually in the CF or are you spouting things you've "heard"?
Part of what makes the Army is tradition and some of our traditions are founded in the days of old - particularly in how we handle colours.
I'm a confirmed agnostic. I have "NRE" on my ID discs and don't participate in church services. However, in 17 years at this I've never once had a problem with the religious overtones of the more traditional aspects of what we do. Look at it as a historical exercise rather than a religious one and all will become clear. Colours are consecrated...so what? Why is this so offensive? Some tolerance on both sides goes a long way and it sounds like you don't have very much.
As for "compulsory" church parades, I'm willing to bet that - in the final analysis - it isn't. All you'd have to say is that you're not interested. It's worked for me.
As Britney said...
Edit to correct a minor typo.
Gramps
Full Member
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When I was a reservist I went on many church parades and each year they went to a different church to accomodate the different faiths represented in the unit but I was never once forced to go. I made my views clear and was never punnished for them, my bosses knew I am an atheist and I was informed by some of my supervisors that I could wait out front if I wanted since I couldnt be forced to worship. There were no hard feelings either way and it didnt hurt me one bit.
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Attending a religious service that is of a different faith of your own shouldn't be threatening... if I was in Tibet I would LOVE to see the temples, and chat to a monk or two... and if I was in Greece or Rome - temples to those gods/goddesses would definatley be on my list.
Simply attending does not force a conversion - no one can "trick you" into worshiping another Deity.
I would think of it as a chance to educate yourself about other religions, and then put it away with all good trips to museums and such.
If for some reason your faith forbids you to enter into a religious ceremony outside of your own - then remember ... as a reservist... unless you are on Class B or C... they cannot "force" you to attend any Class A day.
muffin
Simply attending does not force a conversion - no one can "trick you" into worshiping another Deity.
I would think of it as a chance to educate yourself about other religions, and then put it away with all good trips to museums and such.
If for some reason your faith forbids you to enter into a religious ceremony outside of your own - then remember ... as a reservist... unless you are on Class B or C... they cannot "force" you to attend any Class A day.
muffin
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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Why you described a 48th Church Parade down to a tee! In fact they just recently had one....
Anyway, the RSM nailed it, I enjoyed every parade I did, being a R.C, had nothing to do with it. I repeat, every PARADE as it was regimental, and I adored my regiment.
Maybe the Parade would show you to learn a bit of tolerance as well for your regiment's history, instead declaring there is none for you.
dileas
tess
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OK folks, let's back up.
First of all, I have more than 40 years in, and have four operational tours under my belt, and a chest full of medals. I have nothing to prove, nothing to apologize for, and no need to justify my privilege and honour of wearing Her Majesty's Canadian uniform. I attacked no one personally, and do not expect to be attacked in return.
If we say that people do not have to have religious beliefs, of any kind, to serve in the CF, then why oh why do so many COs call out the padres whenever they have an important event? Seen in public, it gives the very simple and clear impression, to anyone watching, that we are all worshipping as one, and that a state religious belief is being imposed. Given that there are six million Canadians with no religious beliefs, statisically that can't be true. But it obviously does nothing for the image of the CF as being open to all.
Many deeply-rooted military traditions involve religion. That's great and I honour that. I did not attack the consecration of Colours: I do suggest though that Colours should hold exactly the same power for all members of a Regiment, Atheists included. If we tell people that only a religious blessing can turn a "moth-eaten rag on a worm-eaten pole" into a Colour, we are automatically excluding a large segment of the troops. (That's Kipling, by the way)
In the year 2006, we have to accept that these traditions should now only be used when it is a voluntary gathering. Marching 250 people up in front of an altar of drums, or a church altar, teaches them nothing. And how you can use the most divisive factor in humanity to promote cohesion is beyond me.
Two Canadian soldiers stand on parade, their medals proclaiming proudly that they have put their lives on the line for what their country stands for. One is male, the other female, one is white, the other not, one is a sincere believer, the other an equally sincere atheist. We would not hold to a tradition of proclaiming the superiority of the white race, or the male gender. We cannot therefore hold to one which says that believers are more accepted than non-believers. If those soldiers are on parade under orders, nothing should be done that differentiates between them on those three bases.
It's really very simple. It's like Grace at dinner, a tradition which has evolved with time.
Atheists and believers can dine together in the CF, and the Grace before dinner can be simply: "For what we are about to receive, may we be truly thankful." Each can then add his or her personal faith formula, just as they would do at home, or in a shopping mall food court.
In other words, don't dump anything. Don't ban anything. Just work out ways to expand the parameters.
And Amen to that.
First of all, I have more than 40 years in, and have four operational tours under my belt, and a chest full of medals. I have nothing to prove, nothing to apologize for, and no need to justify my privilege and honour of wearing Her Majesty's Canadian uniform. I attacked no one personally, and do not expect to be attacked in return.
If we say that people do not have to have religious beliefs, of any kind, to serve in the CF, then why oh why do so many COs call out the padres whenever they have an important event? Seen in public, it gives the very simple and clear impression, to anyone watching, that we are all worshipping as one, and that a state religious belief is being imposed. Given that there are six million Canadians with no religious beliefs, statisically that can't be true. But it obviously does nothing for the image of the CF as being open to all.
Many deeply-rooted military traditions involve religion. That's great and I honour that. I did not attack the consecration of Colours: I do suggest though that Colours should hold exactly the same power for all members of a Regiment, Atheists included. If we tell people that only a religious blessing can turn a "moth-eaten rag on a worm-eaten pole" into a Colour, we are automatically excluding a large segment of the troops. (That's Kipling, by the way)
In the year 2006, we have to accept that these traditions should now only be used when it is a voluntary gathering. Marching 250 people up in front of an altar of drums, or a church altar, teaches them nothing. And how you can use the most divisive factor in humanity to promote cohesion is beyond me.
Two Canadian soldiers stand on parade, their medals proclaiming proudly that they have put their lives on the line for what their country stands for. One is male, the other female, one is white, the other not, one is a sincere believer, the other an equally sincere atheist. We would not hold to a tradition of proclaiming the superiority of the white race, or the male gender. We cannot therefore hold to one which says that believers are more accepted than non-believers. If those soldiers are on parade under orders, nothing should be done that differentiates between them on those three bases.
It's really very simple. It's like Grace at dinner, a tradition which has evolved with time.
Atheists and believers can dine together in the CF, and the Grace before dinner can be simply: "For what we are about to receive, may we be truly thankful." Each can then add his or her personal faith formula, just as they would do at home, or in a shopping mall food court.
In other words, don't dump anything. Don't ban anything. Just work out ways to expand the parameters.
And Amen to that.
C
chaos75
Guest
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