Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

[KevinB]

I knew there was a God when I prayed (devoutly for the first real time) on my jump course...

There are such things as customs of the service.  Rightly or Wrongly these are customs and as such should be respected regardless of your views - I take shit daily that I have to suck up because I am wearing green (well CADPAT now...).



Does prayer in military functions detract from ones right to not believe?
No - Its called the ignore feature - I use it daily on people
Does prayer in military functions detract from ones right to believe something different?
No - See line 1
Can the military expect everyone to participate in ceremonies that includes any religious observations?
Yes - It is the ARMY (well Maybe the Navy and Airforce can opt out  ;D )
If a soldier was denied the option not to participate, is removing headdress a sign of accepting the beliefs?
No - It is a drill movement like and IA.
Is religion a military tradition?
Yes -
What is gained/lost from religious observations in military functions?
Observing the tradtions and customs keep us with our roots as a Christian society
Does respecting one belief require another to be suppressed, or can everyone be accommodated?
We went to church (when we could) in Afghan
- I taught a course whiel at the RCR BSL (a Mo Basic) that had a Muslim student - we gave him his prayer times - and the guy had guts - I mean he stopped to pray on a BFT and then run with me to catch up to the rest of his course.

I think the problem some have with religion is that some "religious" people are very intolerant - I find this is simply due to their own lack of faith/depth of faith.
IMHO (Kevin up on the SoapBox - Again)

 

[McG]

Observing the tradtions and customs keep us with our roots as a Christian society

Are we really a Christian society?  I think we are more of a secular society but with a plurality of Christians.

 

[Gunnerlove]

I second that.

 

[winchable]

I disagree, perhaps its because I am in the skinny part of the demographic but Canadian society is somewhat ingrained with Christianity.

Perhaps things have changed a little recently but there's still a hint of Christianity wherever you go and this is, as was pointed out, because of the plurality of Christians.
Also, our roots are Christian there is no denying that.
Both the French and the English Colonial built their share of churches etc. when they arrived.

 

[buzgo]

Are we really a Christian society?  I think we are more of a secular society but with a plurality of Christians.

I agree with you, but be careful, the last time I mentioned that - things got pretty warm in here!

 

[Guardian]

I'll point out that even though I'm a Christian, I've been on parade for ecumenical ceremonies where Muslim, native, Zoroastrian, and other prayers were offered. I didn't complain or object, because I understood that in a democratic society, if I wish others to respect and acknowledge my beliefs (i.e., public Christian prayer on parade), I had better be prepared to accord the same respect to others.

Respect does not mean acknowledging that competing belief systems are true. As a believing Christian, I by definition cannot believe that another belief system is "the true path." Some other belief systems (i.e., Unitarianism, Buddhism, etc.) might allow their adherents to believe this, but most major religions, like Christianity, do not. And that's fine - respect simply means acknowledgement that in our open society, anyone has the right to believe what they want and express that belief within reasonable limits.

Sigpig and others have every right under the Charter and Constitution to deny there is a God, and although their personal choice saddens me (they really are missing out) I'm prepared to fight for their right to believe that. God (if He exists) will judge - that's not my role. What disturbs me is the increasing intolerance for religion in society may someday mean that Canadians will not be willing to fight for MY right to believe what I want.

Religion purely in the personal domain? Is that really possible? Religious adherents, if they are serious, let their faith inform every aspect of their lives. It will affect their relationships with others at home AND at work. If it is appropriate that the CF encourage and celebrate racial plurality in its ranks - and it is, because it increases our cohesion and recruiting base and, therefore, our effectiveness - then, logically, we should treat religious differences the same way.

Or to put it in blunt terms, we would never advocate something so abhorrent as telling a CF member who is of African, Asian, or native descent to "leave his ethnicity at home." What, should they put on makeup to hide their skin tone? Of course not. So why is it acceptable when talking about, say, evangelical Christians or devout Muslims? As many less religious than myself would probably point out, hiding orientations in closets is something society's trying to move away from. Telling a Muslim or Christian to "hide his religion in the closet" is not progressive by any reasonable definition.  It's marching in the opposite direction.

I'm certain Muslim CF members have been great assets to operations in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Jewish CF members would, I think, add a great deal to a Canadian contingent in the Sinai or on the Golan. We need to take advantage of every asset we have in our arsenal, ladies and gentlemen, because we don't have much left in that arsenal.

Kudos to MCG for the left and right of arc. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Glorified Ape]

If not everyone can be accommodated, then perhaps it is time for the military to stop accommodating any beliefs.

Hear hear. I don't think it should even be reliant on a condition where everyone isn't accomodated, though. The military is a government institution. If we were in a theocracy, I could understand (though not agree with) the presence of religion in the military. It's not an issue of religion being right or wrong, regardless of denomination, it's an issue of a government institution actively engaging in religious practices, which is to say nothing of requiring participation.

Human Resources Canada doesn't, to my knowledge, hold religious ceremonies and require their employees to attend. Nor does the Ministry of Transportation, Environment, or Foreign Affairs. Why does the military? Sure, the institution serves a different purpose but this doesn't negate the fact that it is still a government institution, serving as the tool of a secular government.

If it is appropriate that the CF encourage and celebrate racial plurality in its ranks - and it is, because it increases our cohesion and recruiting base and, therefore, our effectiveness - then, logically, we should treat religious differences the same way.

Or to put it in blunt terms, we would never advocate something so abhorrent as telling a CF member who is of African, Asian, or native descent to "leave his ethnicity at home." What, should they put on makeup to hide their skin tone? Of course not. So why is it acceptable when talking about, say, evangelical Christians or devout Muslims? As many less religious than myself would probably point out, hiding orientations in closets is something society's trying to move away from. Telling a Muslim or Christian to "hide his religion in the closet" is not progressive by any reasonable definition.   It's marching in the opposite direction.

Firstly, race is different from religion - people choose their religion, you don't choose your race. No one's asking anyone to hide their religion. You're a Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc. - ok, fine. Why do we have to involve that in the secular work of the military? Treat everyone equally, regardless of religion. That doesn't mean we should involve religion in institutional ceremonies. The military should be neutral - neither endorsing or rejecting, just like politics. If you're liberal, conservative, or NDP - great, that's your decision, your personal choice. I don't expect the military to hold ceremonies endorsing my political party or giving me the opportunity to officially pay homage to my political party using military resources (EDIT: In fact, I believe there's a regulation strictly prohibiting the endorsement of any political party in a professional capacity). That's for me to do on my own time. It would unprofessional to do otherwise.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Human Resources Canada doesn't, to my knowledge, hold religious ceremonies and require their employees to attend. Nor does the Ministry of Transportation, Environment, or Foreign Affairs. Why does the military? Sure, the institution serves a different purpose but this doesn't negate the fact that it is still a government institution, serving as the tool of a secular government.

Pretty simple, from my view, none of those "institutions" might have to order you to what could amount to certain death either.

Scenario.....we put an inmate away for 6 months and he has the right to attend a religous service on Sundays, or have a prayer mat and east marked out in his cell or area,kosher food, etc.,...but you're saying we should take the brave men and women who serve their country with honour and deny them the same rights as INMATES?
...and that IS what you are saying[even if you don't mean to]

 

[McG]

If not everyone can be accommodated, then perhaps it is time for the military to stop accommodating any beliefs.

You know, I don't really like this the way it reads.   Perhaps I should rephrase:

If the CF cannot practice all religions (including atheism), then perhaps the CF should stop practicing any religions.  It can and should accommodate individuals to privately practice their own religion, except where such practices would be detrimental to operational needs (ie: not wearing a helmet).

So, we do give everyone the same rights as the inmate of a federal prison.   This includes the right not to attend an institution run religious observance not of one's own.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...and after reading McQ's post I realized the reason I used a 6 month inmate sentence was because I wanted to equate it with a six month tour,  some people here are suggesting that no religious service be available for 6 months to someone on tour but hey, no problem for a dirtbag?

 

[Glorified Ape]

Quote,
Human Resources Canada doesn't, to my knowledge, hold religious ceremonies and require their employees to attend. Nor does the Ministry of Transportation, Environment, or Foreign Affairs. Why does the military? Sure, the institution serves a different purpose but this doesn't negate the fact that it is still a government institution, serving as the tool of a secular government.

Pretty simple, from my view, none of those "institutions" might have to order you to what could amount to certain death either.

I knew someone was going to argue that.  ;D

I don't see that as necessitating religious endorsement in institutional ceremonies. I don't have a problem with the military making religious ceremonies or counselling available (IE the padres, etc.) to soldiers, but I don't see why ceremonies outside the church should include religion - that's precisely what the base churches and clergy are there for. Providing the instruments for religious observance on the soldier's own time is one thing, bringing it into mandatory-attendance, broader institutional ceremonies is another.

Scenario.....we put an inmate away for 6 months and he has the right to attend a religous service on Sundays, or have a prayer mat and east marked out in his cell or area,kosher food, etc.,...but you're saying we should take the brave men and women who serve their country with honour and deny them the same rights as INMATES?
...and that IS what you are saying[even if you don't mean to]

Good point. I was a little too broad in my "don't use military resources" bit.

You know, I don't really like this the way it reads.   Perhaps I should rephrase:

If the CF cannot practice all religions (including atheism), then perhaps the CF should stop practicing any religions.   It can and should accommodate individuals to privately practice their own religion, except where such practices would be detrimental to operational needs (ie: not wearing a helmet).

So, we do give everyone the same rights as the inmate of a federal prison.   This includes the right not to attend an institution run religious observance not of one's own.

I'm just gonna stop typing (maybe shoulda done that a couple posts ago) and let you argue it since I'm in full agreement and you manage to put it much more articulately and with about 80% fewer words.

 

[buzgo]

That sounds like a good solution. I think thats basically what happens in the reg force now anyway. I don't ever recall a regular unit having a "regimental" church parade...

 

[Strike]

We're all suposed to be in a tolerant society.  I'm sure it's been mentioned in an earlier post but here is my 2 cents.

Rant on.

Tolerance does not just mean allowing someone to practice their own beliefs.  We do that and we risk becoming ignorant as to the basics of said religion.  Tolerance also includes education.  IE: just because a Wiccan may use a knife in their religious practice does not mean they worship Satan, or because your religion may have promised so much room for your people does not necesarily mean everyone else is going to Hell.

What gets me about the article that started off this whole thread was not that this Lt(N) practiced a religion that required him to be absent from the ceremonies of other religions, but that he just did not want to go because of HIS OWN beliefs.  That shows true intolerance.  If he began dating a Jewish girl and was invited to Sinagogue with her family would he refuse to wear a Yamuka?  That shows disrespect and intollerance.

When RMC decided to have representatives of several religious communities attend their Colours parade what would have happened if all the good Christians had walked off the parade when the Native American Elder started smudging with the sweetgrass, or the Amman began his prayers?  This is essentially what we are saying we should do when we agree that the Lt(N) in question was right in not removing his headdress on parade.

Rant off.

 

[Strike]

we have a situation where the choice to observe a religious custom is removed from the individual!

Int,

I guess I am looking at it in a less pessimistic view.  I see it as a chance to educate ones self in the view that others may hold.

BTW, I am by no means religious.  I do take the time to try and educate myself on the views/religions of others.

I hope you wouldn't think that my views mean that I think we need to eliminate Christmas pageants and such to make those of other faiths feel less threatened.  Quite the opposite.  We should all celebrate our differences.  What I am trying to point our is that, by experiencing these customs (of quite possibly a faith that one might not agree with or believe in) we are not only learning about other cultures, but also showing the greatest for of tolerance.  After all, I think you would be hard pressed to find one battle/war/conflict that did not have religious undertones to it.  Imagine what would happen if we were a little more tolerant -- other than having absolutely no need for a military of course. 

What can I say, I am an idealist.

I guess that's why work, politics, and religion have historically been taboo topics at mess dinners.  ;D

 

[Armageddon]

I for one, have not and will not ever ignore an order to remove my headdress; however, if I were to say, be ordered to bow my head for prayer i would refuse in a second.  I myself am not religious, but I do my best to respect those of all religions. I do take offence when somebody tries to force religion upon me.  I know there are those present that will tell me on here that prayers are here for respect of those who we think of during remembrance day.  If this is the case, why do we not have multiple prayers for those of various faiths that have fallen.  It is bordering on forcing religion upon those who choose not to believe.  Now I know that I will never win this argument with most people on here as it has already been said that "this is the way it is done or has always been done".  But I just want you to think that if you aren't forced to listen to a lack of religious commentary, why are so many of us force to listen to prayers?
  As I said earlier, I do not wish this to become a question of respect for those of us who have fallen before us.  I have no intention of dishonouring them, ever, but I do no believe that I need a religion to honour their sacrifice.

 

[Radop]

Religion is a personal issue but I have noticed a steady increase in our Chapel.  In the mid '90s, there were only 10 regular families that attended it.  Now there are 25 or so regular attending families and 10 others that are semi-regular.  We regularly have 60+ persons at church.

 

[Radop]

The point is, why even have PRAYER on the parade? I think that the remove headress command really has nothing to do with it. We have separated the church and the state, why not in the military?

I definitely agree with the prayer on pde for rememberance day and momorials such as for the guys who died in Afghanistan.  Depends on what the pde is for.

 

[George Wallace]

I am getting the feeling that some of the people here are arguing against religion and religious traditions in the military simply because they are young and know it all.   Traditions have been developed and passed down through thousands of years.   Just because you don't understand them, doesn't mean that they are obsolete or useless.   Perhaps, you just haven't fully grasped what they mean.

I have heard Senior Officers denounce the practice of Drill as being obsolete on the modern Battlefield.   "We no longer line up in three ranks and fire volleys at our enemy." they say.   Well, Drill does serve a purpose.   It teaches the Soldier many subliminal lessons.   Sure there are some "Tactics" involved in Drill movements, but mostly it teaches the Soldier to work together with his peers as a Unit and able to respond without hesitation to "Familiar Orders".   It teaches small things like balance, but also build confidence.   It gives young leaders the opportunity to practice leadership and instructional skills when they are tasked to give drill.   Good Drill has made Canadian and Commonwealth Soldiers stand out as professionals in the eyes of foreign soldiers.  

Our traditions are our history.   To denounce our traditions because of one's own ignorance is no excuse.   To not respect the traditions of others is an insult.   During our religious services, many of our prayers are in silence.   What you do or do not do in your moment of silence is your business.   This business of not removing headdress is an affront to all sensible people.   It is a slap in the face, made by an ignorant person.   That person, thinking he has made a great step forward in "Human Rights" has just proven himself to be the worlds biggest ass.   Just look at the dissension being proglamated here.

GW

 

[McG]

I am getting the feeling that some of the people here are arguing against religion and religious traditions in the military simply because they are young and know it all.   Traditions have been developed and passed down through thousands of years.   Just because you don't understand them, doesn't mean that they are obsolete or useless.   Perhaps, you just haven't fully grasped what they mean.

...

Our traditions are our history.   To denounce our traditions because of one's own ignorance is no excuse.   ...

Horses were a Cavalry tradition.   Do you think tradition is a worthy justification to fight with horses instead of tanks?   Tradition is not an argument.   It is a smoke screen for those who cannot defend their position.

You've found a reason that goes beyond tradition to justify drill.   What reason beyond tradition exists for making organizationally chosen religions a part of every soldier's lives?

 

[George Wallace]

Horses were a Cavalry tradition.   Do you think tradition is a worthy justification to fight with horses instead of tanks?   Tradition is not an argument.   It is a smoke screen for those who cannot defend their position.

This is a totally illogical and ludicrous rebuttal.   Surely you can come up with something more relevant and thoughtful.

You've found a reason that goes beyond tradition to justify drill.   What reason beyond tradition exists for making organizationally chosen religions a part of every soldier's lives?

Let's see......Have you or do you ever plan on celebrating Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, Lent?   Have you ever celebrated Mardi Gras, Fauschin, Carnival, Halloween?   Do you celebrate or believe in St Patrick, St Barbera, St Michel, or any Patron Saint?   Have you set up a Christmas tree?   Have you celebrated Strove Tuesday, Ash Wednesday, or Dirty Thursday?  Would you go to the Olympics?   If you have answered "Yes" to any of these, then you have proven yourself to be a hypocrite.   All of these have some Religious origin, not necessarily Christian.  

When it comes to traditions, many have their roots in ancient religions.   Many of our Military traditions are also from ancient rites.   You seem to feel that we don't need these traditions.   How can you say that with any conviction, when you have been perpetuating one with every post you make?

Chimo!