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Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis

Colin P said:
So as i recall we had a number of our CF-18's upgraded to use a "sniper pod" and that piece of kit pushed the ability of the aircraft to see and id target above and beyond many of the other peer allied aircraft. Is that correct and do they give our aircraft and our allies an edge they might otherwise lose?

The Sniper Pod is great.  In all of our missions. Without getting into specifics, it enables to do us our job from much farther than previous generation's pods as well as introducing capabilities we didn't have before.

Edit:  here's the LockMart promo video to give you an idea of the capabilities: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXXWW-U6PQI
 
Striking targets on the ground is not a responsible thing to do ???

I tried to ignore this part but...

The goal is for the Forces to be "representative of the demographic of Canada"

How about the goal being to recruit the best people possible, regardless of PC quota #s, to maintain combat capable forces.  That seems like a more effective recruiting goal to me.  :facepalm:



 
MCG said:
This probably is not a surprise to most here.http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thehouse/when-dark-economic-clouds-overshadow-the-political-agenda-1.3403555/of-course-allies-want-canada-s-fighter-jets-to-stay-says-defence-minister-1.3403789

This literally made no sense.  Military Officers shouldn't go in to politics, it makes them look like idiots.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
This literally made no sense.  Military Officers shouldn't go in to politics, it makes them look like idiots.

"Of course we're wanted there, but because of a purely political promise with no hint of logic, the boss says we're pulling them."

If that's not throwing Trudeau and the Liberal party under the bus, I don't know what is.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
This literally made no sense.  Military Officers shouldn't go in to politics, it makes them look like idiots.

Some of them were 'politicians' to begin with, not really 'military officers'.    >:D
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
This literally made no sense.  Military Officers shouldn't go in to politics, it makes them look like idiots.
If that's what you really want, then you can't also complain that MP's or other politicians don't "get" the military.

Unless you're encouraging NCMs to try to see if they can do better  ;D
 
milnews.ca said:
If that's what you really want, then you can't also complain that MP's or other politicians don't "get" the military.

Unless you're encouraging NCMs to try to see if they can do better  ;D

The last two Cpls I can think of really shit the bed on running their various monkey shows.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
This literally made no sense.  Military Officers shouldn't go in to politics, it makes them look like idiots.

The koolaid is starting to take effect.  The message machine is starting to figure out how to square the circle and obfuscate.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Striking targets on the ground is not a responsible thing to do ???

I tried to ignore this part but...

How about the goal being to recruit the best people possible, regardless of PC quota #s, to maintain combat capable forces.  That seems like a more effective recruiting goal to me.  :facepalm:

I have no problem with reaching out to minorities, even caucasian ones, and inviting them to join up.  But not if during the 8 hours that it takes to try and convince one reluctant possibility the queue of willing possibilities is put on hold and told to come back tomorrow.
 
milnews.ca said:
If that's what you really want, then you can't also complain that MP's or other politicians don't "get" the military.

Unless you're encouraging NCMs to try to see if they can do better  ;D

Actually I wouldn't be opposed to Military Officers never being able to run for political office at all, much like Judges. 

An officer should provide advice, based on sound military principles, that is independent of any political leanings.  We can leave the politiking to the politicians. 
 
The Toronto Star is advocating to keep the CF-18 mission going.  Knowing some site opinions of that paper, that will probably surprise a few people.

PM should back down on jet withdrawal
Rosie DiManno
Toronto Star
18 Jan 2016

In Libya, airstrikes under a Canadian general's command chased Muammar Gaddafi's tanks from the gates of besieged Misurata, preventing an all-out massacre of civilians.

In Afghanistan, intense aerial bombing by American B-52s pounded Taliban fighter formations in the desert, ultimately allowing National Alliance militias to advance southwards and take Kabul.

In Iraq, "shock and awe" bombing obliterated Saddam Hassan's Republican Army troops prior to ground forces crossing the Kuwait border, which is why fewer than 175 American and British troops lost their lives in the six weeks before the Saddam Hussein regime fell.

The world can debate the merits of all three military interventions - the what-came-next part, as each country descended into internal chaos, tribal and sectarian violence, the exponential growth of terrorist organizations and a colossal failure of politics - but the screeching jets did their job.

Air power doesn't win wars, not without boots on the ground. But coalition air power - primarily American sorties, with escalating participation by British and French jets - was crucial to recent gains made by Iraqi and Kurdish forces in taking back between 25 and 30 per cent of territory that had been controlled by the Islamic State group (ISIS), including the liberation of Sinjar and Ramadi.

Armoury depots were smashed, resupply routes severed and hundreds of ISIS fighters killed - from the air, because the Islamic State mimics a conventional command-and-control structure; troops usually deployed in formation, easier targets to hit.

Canadian military assets were involved. Last Friday, according to most recent data available on the Operation IMPACT website, two CF-18s "successfully" struck an ISIS fighting position east of Mosul using precision-guided munitions. The day before, Canadian pilots hit a fighting position northeast of Tikrit. In the previous week, the conducted bombing missions against a staging facility for vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices in Ramadi took out three VIEDs outside Haditha and a rocket emplacement near al-Baghdadi.

As of this past weekend, those CF-18s had flown 2017 sorties, while Canada's Polaris aerial refueler - which helps fighter jets operate 24/7 - had delivered 20,522,000 pounds of fuel to coalition aircraft. Meanwhile, our CP-140 Auroras, outfitted with sophisticated radar and optical systems which identify ISIS militants on the ground - conducted 378 reconnaissance missions since arriving in-theatre two years ago as part of Joint Task-Force Iraq.

Canada isn't a major player in the operations: six CF-18s, one Polaris, two Auroras, support personnel for the aircraft and 69 special operations forces in an allegedly noncombat role to help train local forces - but they've definitely engaged in some direct fighting. Two per cent of the military load is better than 0 per cent of the military load for a highly regarded and professionally experienced combat air force.

This is the military component that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau vowed to withdraw by March when he was campaigning - a deployment that, under Stephen Harper's government (and extended) was scheduled to conclude in April anyway. Trudeau has said almost nothing publicly about those intentions since his triumph at the polls, at least not since a phone call to President Barack Obama one day after the election, reiterating Canada's military pullout. What Obama might have said privately to Trudeau in their November face-to-face - what Obama may have asked of Canada - is open to speculation.

Defense Minister Harjit Sajjan, a three-tour veteran of Afghanistan, stated last week that the withdrawal plans haven't changed as Trudeau presumably ponders what contribution Canada can make instead in rolling back ISIS. He likes the soft feel-good options of humanitarian assistance and possibly augmenting the training mission. He doesn't like whipping out our jets "to show how big they are." Yet polls show two-thirds of Canadians support the military mission.

Trudeau has never actually articulated why Canada should abandon the task force - abandon our allies - at what might very well be a tipping point of the military mission. If it's the prospect of Canadian casualties that sickens the prime minister, those fighter pilots in the sky are far safer than training forces close to the action down below. It makes no sense, strategically or otherwise, to bug out of Iraq's blue yonder while contemplating an insertion of more Canadians on the ground.

If Trudeau can't provide a logical explanation it's because there isn't one. His objection is more visceral, rooted in a de facto repugnance of military ugliness. But if not Iraq/Syria, against the scourge of ISIS, then where and when? And what therefore is the point of buying a new fleet of fighter jets to replace the aging C-18 Hornets - Liberals rejecting the Tories' procurement plan for stealth capability F-35s from Lockheed Martin (a heavily criticized and purportedly rigged bidding process) - or spending billions on a new training program for military pilots?

ISIS, as Obama has said, is not an existential threat to the West. But it is a brutalizing menace seeking to establish its fantastical caliphate across Iraq, Syria, Libya and beyond. Its ruthlessness is unprecedented, its ambitions empirical. Accepting 25,000 Syrian refugees who'd doubtless rather return to their own country (with an end to a ruinous civil war and protected by no-fly zones) is a passive response to a kinetic catastrophe.

Trudeau was forced to readjust his grandiose refugee pledge because the timeline was unrealistic and everybody knew it. He was quite rightly forgiven for overreach. Canada answered the bell, in humanitarian terms.

That claxon is now clanging for a reappraisal - a full reversal, to be blunt - on the military front.

Canada's CF-18s are still conducting sorties over Iraq, two months after the Liberals were sworn into office. It would appear, at the least, logistically impossible to call off the mission by March. It would also be a gross abnegation of Canada's military and moral obligations.

Trudeau should stand up by standing down on a foolish election promise.
   
 
Well the situation has changed.  IS is slowly but surely getting ground down through a war of attrition.  Perhaps the Air Campaign is working?  :D
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
Actually I wouldn't be opposed to Military Officers never being able to run for political office at all, much like Judges. 

On the other hand, I think qualified MP's should be allowed and even strongly encouraged to serve in the CF concurrently with their duties as an MP.  Here is an example of service to country through and through, no matter what your politics are. Evern when handed a setback he remained engaged in the cause. I believe there is another member of the US Senate who is a serving C-17 pilot with an ANG unit.

Wikipedia; Lindsay Graham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Graham#Military_service

" Following his departure from the Air Force, he joined the South Carolina Air National Guard in 1989, where he served until 1995, then joining the U.S. Air Force Reserve.[19]

During the 1990-91 Gulf War, Graham was recalled to active duty, serving as a Judge Advocate at McEntire Air National Guard Station in Eastover, South Carolina, where he helped brief departing pilots on the laws of war.[21] In 1998, the Capitol Hill daily newspaper The Hill contended that Graham was describing himself on his website as an Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm veteran. Graham responded: "I have not told anybody I'm a combatant. I'm not a war hero, and never said I was.... If I have lied about my military record, I'm not fit to serve in Congress", further noting that he "never deployed."[22][23]

In 1998, Graham was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel. In 2004, he received his promotion to Colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve at a White House ceremony officiated by President George W. Bush.[24] That year, the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces held that it was improper for Graham to serve as a military judge while a sitting member of the Senate.[25]

In 2007, Graham served in Iraq as a reservist on active duty for a short period in April and for two weeks in August, where he worked on detainee and rule-of-law issues.[26] He also served in Afghanistan during the August 2009 Senate recess.[27] He was then assigned as a senior instructor for the U.S. Air Force JAG Corps.[19][28]

In 2015, Graham retired from the Air Force with over 33 total years of service, after reaching the statutory retirement age of 60 for his rank"
 
I get a little irked when people focus on the "2% of all sorties".  It's a number.  Try looking at the number of times CF-18s have struck ISIS and changed the outcome of a battle or portion of a battle since they arrived in theatre.

Pulling the CF-18s out 'so Canada isn't involved with directly targeting ISIS' is smoke and mirrors.  The Aurora flys "ISR" missions, meaning they go find stuff.  Int folks take the info collected and find stuff in it that is ISIS.  The Polaris AAR helps keep fighters in the air; those fighters are carrying stuff that gets dropped on ISIS targets.  All of those 'stuffs' are part of the targeting cycle.

So it's okay if RCAF ISR aircraft go looking for stuff, that the Int folks decide is ISIS stuff, that then gets struck by fighters that just tanked off a RCAF flying gas cans;  but not if Canadian fighters drop iron on the target.  I don't get it myself.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
I get a little irked when people focus on the "2% of all sorties".  It's a number.  Try looking at the number of times CF-18s have struck ISIS and changed the outcome of a battle or portion of a battle since they arrived in theatre.

Pulling the CF-18s out 'so Canada isn't involved with directly targeting ISIS' is smoke and mirrors.  The Aurora flys "ISR" missions, meaning they go find stuff.  Int folks take the info collected and find stuff in it that is ISIS.  The Polaris AAR helps keep fighters in the air; those fighters are carrying stuff that gets dropped on ISIS targets.  All of those 'stuffs' are part of the targeting cycle.

So it's okay if RCAF ISR aircraft go looking for stuff, that the Int folks decide is ISIS stuff, that then gets struck by fighters that just tanked off a RCAF flying gas cans;  but not if Canadian fighters drop iron on the target.  I don't get it myself.

Your first mistake is assuming the Average Canadian has even the faintest clue about how militaries operate.

ISR?  AAR?  Int?  You may as well be speaking Greek to the average joe.
 
Yes, there is that.  I guess as long as Joe and Jane Taxpayer don't know the difference and can comment about how we aren't taking part in combat operations at the work lunch meetings, they're okay.  ;D
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
Well the situation has changed.  IS is slowly but surely getting ground down through a war of attrition.  Perhaps the Air Campaign is working?  :D

Without a doubt the air campaign has worked to stop the advance of the ISIS and suppresses their ability to concentrate in force against their opponents. but we are reaching the limits of what an air campaign can do. It still important and helps keep them weak, particularly when we finally got around destroying their sources of income, can you imagine fighting the Nazi's with these ROE's? The Kurds have almost reached their limit on how far they will go. The Shia Iraqi government is starting to operate in areas of the Sunni Tribes who they recently tried to back stab. Really what we need is Kuwait and KSA to move into the Sunni areas and push the ISIS against the Kurds and Shias. I suspect for long term peace you are going to need a Sunni state to be the protector of the Sunni Tribes. 
 
Really?
The parliamentary secretary to the minister of defence says it’s reasonable to assume that his government will have a plan in place for continuing Canada’s fight against the so-called Islamic State when coalition partners meet in mid-February.

Pressed on the timeline for the new plan – which the Liberals have said will include pulling out Canada’s CF-18 bombers and increasing training initiatives – John McKay gave a couple of reasons for the delay in drafting it since the election last fall.

    “In the previous government there was a one-man show, so it was kind of easier to arrive at a plan,” McKay noted. “I think there have been broad and extensive consultations by both the prime minster and the minister (on the new approach).”

The other explanation, he said, is the complexity of the various conflicts in the Middle East, and the similar complexity of the international response.

When asked by The West Block’s Tom Clark if the Liberal plan will be ready to be presented by the time the 27 anti-IS coalition partners sit down on Feb. 11 to discuss next steps, McKay replied “I think that’s a reasonable assumption.” ...
Today is day 81 since his swearing in, and the PM didn't allow for the "complexity of various conflicts in the Middle East and similar complexity of the international response"?  I'm a fat old guy typing on his computer in the basement, and I knew that ME confilcts are more than just "complex".

Happy to give new management the benefit of the doubt, but this?  :facepalm:
 
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