2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Remius]

The CPC is using this as a good political ploy. Every time Singh says he’ll draw a red line the CPC calls them on it. Erodes Singh’s credibility. Not sure it translates to CPC votes but they are I think stealing some of the union support the NDP once enjoyed.

 

[OldSolduer]

Wait a minute!!

Singh has credibility?

 

[Good2Golf]

Wait a minute!!

Singh has credibility?

With BMW, Rolex and Brooks Brothers, yes.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

With BMW, Rolex and Brooks Brothers, yes.

Don't forget Versace

 

[ArmyRick]

CPC is in the lead so I can see why they would want an election sooner. I don’t see where the NDP would get a benefit from leaving the “coalition” though.

The benefit? The NDP will retain credibility is a BIG benefit. This coalition is killing the NDP more than the Liberals. But hey, Singh needs that pension....

 

[brihard]

The benefit? The NDP will retain credibility is a BIG benefit. This coalition is killing the NDP more than the Liberals. But hey, Singh needs that pension....

Maintain credibility with whom? Do you think the NDP is blowing their credibility with people who would actually consider voting NDP? You probably never will. I probably never will. So do they care much what you or I think?

The NDP, through supply and confidence, has continued to advance their policy goals farther than a third place opposition almost ever can. They’re a party of perpetual opposition who can point to the LPC pushing pharmacare, dental care, etc essentially because the NDP forces them to in order to stay in government. No matter how hard the LPC try to outflank the NDP on the left, NDP can just shrug, point, and say “they needed us so we got this”.

The game plays differently when you have a shot at forming government versus when you don’t. You’re suggesting the NDP lose credibility by propping up the government, so presumably you mean they lose credibility among those who oppose the government… Did NDP have any credibility there to begin with? Or are they just pissing off voters they would never get anyway? I don’t put much stock in polls, but their popular vote is polling not far off what they got in the last election. That’s not suggestive of any significant credibility loss. I don’t think people believe or respect them generally less than they did before.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I would suggest the NDP have a very good chance at forming the opposition next election whether they drag it out or not. The Liberals are very likely to be punished in the polls and last time that happened they did. Maybe it might become the norm, my area is a swing area (varies between Conservative, Liberals, and NDP depending on the times) and I have met a lot of people that vote Liberal not because they love their policies rather they feel the NDP doesn’t have a chance at forming government.

Ironically it is that ‘strategic voting’ which is keeping them from winning.

FPTP is a sufficient election system, what we really need is some direct democracy like the Swiss where we can actually hold our elected members accountable instead of ‘wait 4 years and hope the next guys you elect are accountable’. The issue isn’t who got a percentage of the votes, rather that the politicians don’t follow the will of the people and have no obligation to do so.

 

[ArmyRick]

Maintain credibility with whom? Do you think the NDP is blowing their credibility with people who would actually consider voting NDP? You probably never will. I probably never will. So do they care much what you or I think?

The NDP, through supply and confidence, has continued to advance their policy goals farther than a third place opposition almost ever can. They’re a party of perpetual opposition who can point to the LPC pushing pharmacare, dental care, etc essentially because the NDP forces them to in order to stay in government. No matter how hard the LPC try to outflank the NDP on the left, NDP can just shrug, point, and say “they needed us so we got this”.

The game plays differently when you have a shot at forming government versus when you don’t. You’re suggesting the NDP lose credibility by propping up the government, so presumably you mean they lose credibility among those who oppose the government… Did NDP have any credibility there to begin with? Or are they just pissing off voters they would never get anyway? I don’t put much stock in polls, but their popular vote is polling not far off what they got in the last election. That’s not suggestive of any significant credibility loss. I don’t think people believe or respect them generally less than they did before.

It wasn't only the Liberals that took a shit kicking in the Toronto-St Pauls by election, the NDP dropped in numbers in that riding.
What have the NDP brought us with their "holding Trudeau to the coalition"? Sweet F all. There is still no "pharma care" or very little and some of it is covered by most provinces anyways. Dental care? Laughing so hard here. I asked my dentist how it works, he says its very confusing and he is not touching it. I asked alot of local lower income people I know how it works and what is covered. Guess what? No one seems to know and no seems to be getting straight answers.

If the NDP come out of the next election with noticeably fewer seats than that in my mind is the proof you need that Singh achieved nothing except to bury the NDP.

The same NDP that ten years was the official OPPOSITION party.

 

[dimsum]

It wasn't only the Liberals that took a shit kicking in the Toronto-St Pauls by election, the NDP dropped in numbers in that riding.
What have the NDP brought us with their "holding Trudeau to the coalition"? Sweet F all. There is still no "pharma care" or very little and some of it is covered by most provinces anyways. Dental care? Laughing so hard here. I asked my dentist how it works, he says its very confusing and he is not touching it. I asked alot of local lower income people I know how it works and what is covered. Guess what? No one seems to know and no seems to be getting straight answers.

If the NDP come out of the next election with noticeably fewer seats than that in my mind is the proof you need that Singh achieved nothing except to bury the NDP.

The same NDP that ten years was the official OPPOSITION party.

I would argue that until the Orange Crush happened, most people were writing off the NDP as a viable party as well.

 

[Furniture]

If the NDP come out of the next election with noticeably fewer seats than that in my mind is the proof you need that Singh achieved nothing except to bury the NDP.

The same NDP that ten years was the official OPPOSITION party.

I think you nailed it with this. An NDP lead into the next election by Singh has absolutely nothing to gain.

An NDP that boots him as a leader, and finds someone who can actually lead? That party could likely do quite well for themselves, but it seems the NDP themselves have no intention of going that route.

 

[brihard]

It wasn't only the Liberals that took a shit kicking in the Toronto-St Pauls by election, the NDP dropped in numbers in that riding.
What have the NDP brought us with their "holding Trudeau to the coalition"? Sweet F all. There is still no "pharma care" or very little and some of it is covered by most provinces anyways. Dental care? Laughing so hard here. I asked my dentist how it works, he says its very confusing and he is not touching it. I asked alot of local lower income people I know how it works and what is covered. Guess what? No one seems to know and no seems to be getting straight answers.

If the NDP come out of the next election with noticeably fewer seats than that in my mind is the proof you need that Singh achieved nothing except to bury the NDP.

The same NDP that ten years was the official OPPOSITION party.

Ok but none of that is what I asked. You’re saying they’re losing credibility. I’m just asking with whom? I’m not seeing where there are a bunch of people who view the NDP less credibly now than in the last election based on popular vote intentions. Seat count is more about the vagaries of FPTP math.

We could absolutely talk about how far their policies have and haven’t gone. I’d suggest that a year from now, going into the election, there will probably be a lot more meat on the bones of pharma and dental. But that’s not what I was challenging; just the credibility thing.

I will say this for the NPD, and I say it never having voted for them and likely never intending to: You know where they stand and what you’re gonna get. I’m not a customer of much of what they’re selling, but I respect that they’re at least more straightforward and up front than the other two. I have to give credit where it’s due.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A party that has no practical hope of forming government can afford to be more candid, which has the side-effect of keeping its voting base loyal.

A benefit some people can't access, or that amounts to much less than its hype campaigns suggest, isn't really a benefit. It's a bribe to some people at the expense of others.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I just find Singh oxymoronic. A millionaire lawyer, making zero attempt to hide his high priced baubles and bows, leading what is supposed to be a blue collar, lunchbucket party. Champagne Socialism at its finest.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I would argue that until the Orange Crush happened, most people were writing off the NDP as a viable party as well.

One thing we must remember about the Orange Crush is another of this unwritten laws on Canadian politics: Québec will always vote. for a native son (or daughter) when one is available. In 2011 they had two "native sons:" Gilles Duceppe who had, arguably, overstayed his welcome in Québec politics and Jack Layton, 'Le Bon Jack' who was raised in Québec but made his mark in Toronto.

In 2011 it was Harper vs Ignatieff vs Duceppe vs Layton and Layton sold himself to Québec, successfully, as a vrai Québécois with new, fresh ideas. He whomped both Duceppe and Ignatieff, gaining 17 seats from the Liberals and a whopping 45 from the BQ. More than half of the NDP's seats in 2011 were won in Québec.

 

[brihard]

One thing we must remember about the Orange Crush is another of this unwritten laws on Canadian politics: Québec will always vote. for a native son (or daughter) when one is available. In 2011 they had two "native sons:" Gilles Duceppe who had, arguably, overstayed his welcome in Québec politics and Jack Layton, 'Le Bon Jack' who was raised in Québec but made his mark in Toronto.

In 2011 it was Harper vs Ignatieff vs Duceppe vs Layton and Layton sold himself to Québec, successfully, as a vrai Québécois with new, fresh ideas. He whomped both Duceppe and Ignatieff, gaining 17 seats from the Liberals and a whopping 45 from the BQ. More than half of the NDP's seats in 2011 were won in Québec.

Ignatieff was extremely whompable, so the NDP were well set up for success that time round. That was a rare confluence of positive circumstances for them.

 

[ArmyRick]

You know where they stand and what you’re gonna get. I’m not a customer of much of what they’re selling, but I respect that they’re at least more straightforward and up front than the other two.

What? Are you paying attention at all?

"Loblaws must be held accountable for their corporate greed..." BUt totally skip over the fact his brother worked for Metro

"We must stop the hate against Palestinians..." But completely ignore the OPEN hatred against Jewish people here in Canada from Pro Palestinian protestors.

"We will fight to get pharmacare for Canadians..." You mean diabetes medication and pregnancy prevention for a few? Yeah sure. And the Liberals are claiming victory on that.

"Its totally unacceptable for the Government (aka Liberals) to force arbitration union the rail workers..." Then Deeds not words, Singh and pull your support for the coalition.

I could go on and on, but it gets tiresome explaining over and over again.

More straightforward and up front than the other two? Oh please. Everyone is calling his bluff, even the CBC and CTV.

Ever wonder why the NDP fund raising barely exist? The hard left crowd are looking for an alternative to rich princess Trudeau and Singh has failed them huge.

And I have been an NDP supporter in the past at times, my parents were hardcore union folks in the 80s-2000s and used to be die hard NDP supporters, they and many of their old peers) have ZERO time for the NDP.

You lack political situational awareness, big time.

 

[brihard]

What? Are you paying attention at all?

"Loblaws must be held accountable for their corporate greed..." BUt totally skip over the fact his brother worked for Metro

"We must stop the hate against Palestinians..." But completely ignore the OPEN hatred against Jewish people here in Canada from Pro Palestinian protestors.

"We will fight to get pharmacare for Canadians..." You mean diabetes medication and pregnancy prevention for a few? Yeah sure. And the Liberals are claiming victory on that.

"Its totally unacceptable for the Government (aka Liberals) to force arbitration union the rail workers..." Then Deeds not words, Singh and pull your support for the coalition.

I could go on and on, but it gets tiresome explaining over and over again.

More straightforward and up front than the other two? Oh please. Everyone is calling his bluff, even the CBC and CTV.

Ever wonder why the NDP fund raising barely exist? The hard left crowd are looking for an alternative to rich princess Trudeau and Singh has failed them huge.

And I have been an NDP supporter I the past at times, my parents were hardcore union folks in the 80s-2000s and used to be die har NDP supporters, o they 9and many of their old peers) have ZERO time for the NDP.

You lack political situational awareness, big time.

OK, cool. But again, I was actually only asking just who you contend they’re losing credibility with and showing why the polling data suggests to me that that may not be the case. You didn’t answer that. Since we seem to just be talking past each other, I’ll bow out.

 

[ArmyRick]

Sure. Here is is a snap shot, there numbers are shit Welcome to 338Canada

Where are they polling strong? No where. Ten years ago, the opposition party, and now? 4th place party.

 

[ArmyRick]

polling data suggests to me that that may not be the case.

Really?

 

[Good2Golf]

Sure. Here is is a snap shot, there numbers are shit Welcome to 338Canada

Where are they polling strong? No where. Ten years ago, the opposition party, and now? 4th place party.

They really get hammered by the 55+ crowd! 8%! Half their national average…




Aside: Surprised the Liberals are getting beasted so hard in the Maritimes…ouch! (Latest Léger poll) Even with the moratorium on Carbon Tax for home heating oil…ungrateful Maritimers!