War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[Danjanou]

Nobody but Veterans should be in charge of such a sancroscinct establishment as the War Museum.

Now that is an idea worth fighting for. I can think of several regular posters here more than qualified for the job.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Just a curiosity question.  Would it not have made sense to put a Canadian WAR museum under the control of the Royal Canadian Legion?  As I understand it, the Legion has a few members that know a thing or two about war?  Plus, it would take the party political influence out of the equation.... Am I off course here?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Yes, Kat Stevens, I believe you are.

The purpose â “ the sole purpose â “ of a museum, any museum, is to educate.  In the case of a museum, artifacts are used to promote understanding and to aid research.

Arguably, in the Canadian War Museum, as in all great museums the true strength of the place will be found in its reading rooms and, in a peculiarly Canadian twist, in its art galleries â “ because Canada pioneered official war art and, perhaps, still leads the way in this peculiar discipline.  (The unseen (by the Canadian public) Canadian War Art collection includes some of the finest water colours (Charles Comfort) and oils (Alex Coleville, Mary Lamb, and many, many others) painted anywhere in the world in any time in the 20th century.  Some are very moving and present unique statements about Canada and Canadians at war.  Sometimes art can be just as authoritative and much more comprehensible than dusty pages of letters and diaries by 'great' commanders.)

I, too, object to the Canadian War Museum being subordinate to the Canadian Museum of Civilization, but every museum should belong to someone or other and my suggestion that one of Ottawa's universities should have been given formal oversight responsibility was not accepted by the group with which I am associated.

I am afraid that soldiers and veterans might be less pleased if a board of real, solid, internationally known Canadian historians were in charge â “ some sacred cows might get butchered.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I hear what you're saying. However, every other military style museum in Canada is administered by Regimental Associations, or other militarily linked organizations.  They do a fine job, IMHO, of presenting our military history.  Why national war museum would not be under the umbrella of the very people who fought those wars mystifies me. Not that I'm implying there shouldn't be a balance of pro and con.  As for the paintings, I feel the only purpose they will serve is to give the unenlightened a negative view of us before they've even seen the rest of the museum.....If they want shock value, how about a painting of Canadian troops excavating and recording mass graves....

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Roger]

Paradoxically, that sacrifice by those soldiers was to ensure such 'artsy fartsy' types would have such freedom of expression within our society and those of our friends and allies, to the extent possible by their political and societal natures.

First off I am just going to say that this will be my last post on this issue, the pain of reading the posts are just too much for me at this time.

As I said, I think that the CAR was disbanded do too political and financial reasons and the press was used to have the news of what had happened for four years to give someone the ammo to disband the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

You do not hear any press of the dead bodies of Canadian soldiers hidden in a warehouse for several days in Bosnia, or of the soldiers that where defrauding the people they where supposed to help in country's like Cambodia.

Instead I will go in a museum that was built for all Canadian veterans and see the painting of a Canadian soldier torturing a young man. What do you think peoples memories will be when they leave that museum, what do you all think they will think of Canadian soldiers, I lived the experience of the 70's getting spit on and being called a baby killer because I was a soldier, spit on by Canadians who did not know where I had been but assumed I was in Vietnam when Canada was not there. Most of you where not there Somalia and most of you only know what you saw and read in the papers, where was all the press released from? Why was it front news for 4 years but we never heard one thing about the Medak pocket. I have no problem bringing up the good with the bad, we as Canadians fought and join the Canadian Armed forces because we believe in freedom.

But for me, it is more of an issue that should have been dealt with immediately and should have not as gone as far as disbanding a unit of men who just wanted to do there duty for Canada and be the best they could be.

 

[Jonny Boy]

I received an e-mail yesterday from the President of the PPCLI Asso in the Wpg area. In it he asks to mobilize support to protest the inclusion of the images of Brown and Matchee that are prominently displayed in the Museum. Apparently these images are very large (I heard "ten feet high"). What the heck is up with that? Is that how we honour the Canadians who have served this country, and who are serving it now? As an institution and as a profession we have already paid a huge price for the actions of these two criminal aberrants: how much more do we have to pay? Are we the Germans, to have our past sins constantly brought to our attention? I have not seen these images but I have no difficulty believing in the existence of the lefty, guilt-mongering, apologetic attitude that would equate all us soldiers with these two miscreants. After all, we're all just a bunch of psychopathic high school drop outs, right? Anybody who would accept the duty to kill must be a sicko, right?

I circulated the e-mail amongst all of our Bde Honoraries. Those of us still serving in the RegF may be in a difficult spot in opposing the Govt on this, but there are lots of Canadians who are not. I urge everybody here who has similar feelings to express them in whatever effective way you can.

In my opinion this is an unwarranted slur on all of us, veteran and serving. Take the pictures down.

Cheers.

are those the pictures of the airborne regiment   M/cpl with that Prisoner that they killed? i heard about those being put in the museum it made me sick, thats our goverment for you.

 

[-rb]

are those the pictures of the airborne regiment   M/cpl with that Prisoner that they killed?

Hutch, read this thread - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30345.0.html .You will find some of the details and hopefully gain some perspective as to why it is so controversial for members of the CF both serving and retired.

cheers.

 

[a_majoor]

It seems very clear that the "official" war museum is a forum to "educate" the public towards a view of the Armed Forces which is pleasing to the "elite" and obviously accepted by the masses (since they don't see fit to throw out a passive and seemingly corrupt political establishment, nor make any more than a token gesture of support to the likes of us.)

We do have the means to reply, both directly to the War Museum by voicing our opinions to the Museum, the media and our elected representatives, and indirectly by promoting OUR OWN regimental museums. I organized a visit to the RCR museum by my daughters school to coincide with Remembrance Day last year, and not only was it a resounding success, but it also sparked subsequent visits by the school. Many of these museums are operated by regimental associations, so there is a strong possibility that the visitors to your museums will have a chance to speak to veterens and serving members of your units, as well as see the history.

Everyone, we are soldiers, and joined because we are the people who want to do things and take action. Here is our chance; lets go!

 

[2 Cdo]

a_majoor, that sounds like an amazing idea. Maybe that's something that Regimental Museum curators and members can look into.

 

[George Wallace]

I hear what you're saying. However, every other military style museum in Canada is administered by Regimental Associations, or other militarily linked organizations.   They do a fine job, IMHO, of presenting our military history.   Why national war museum would not be under the umbrella of the very people who fought those wars mystifies me. Not that I'm implying there shouldn't be a balance of pro and con.   As for the paintings, I feel the only purpose they will serve is to give the unenlightened a negative view of us before they've even seen the rest of the museum.....If they want shock value, how about a painting of Canadian troops excavating and recording mass graves....

CHIMO,   Kat

DND through DHH certifies and 'supports' all CF Museums, Reg and Reserve.   There are the odd one, that is outside of DND, but still belongs to the OMMC (Organization of Military Museums of Canada), which in turn has a relationship with DHH.   The Canadian War Museum is not officially supported by DND.   What you will find is that it falls under the Museum of Civilization, and at times butts heads with Parks Canada's Museums and Historians.  

The problem is that some of the people who have created this controversy haven't thought the matter through enough.   Had they put some serious thought into it, may have tried a little experiment:   They could have tried to substitute the name of the CWM with "Canadian Woman's History Museum"; substitute any Woman's Human Rights organization for " members of the CAR"; and then substituted "Portrait of Mark Lapine" for "Painting of Kyle Brown", and from there determined if a controversy would be raised or not.   I think they would have left the painting of 'Mark Lapine" out of their display.

 

[Jonny Boy]

ya i just realized i really worded that badly. don't take any offence to it please. it want meant in that kind of way.

i understand why it is controversial, even though i was like 6 or so when it happend i like to watch the documentary's about it to learn more. but man do i hate the liberals

 

[Canadian Sig]

Those of us still serving in the RegF may be in a difficult spot in opposing the Govt on this, but there are lots of Canadians who are not. I urge everybody here who has similar feelings to express them in whatever effective way you can.

In my opinion this is an unwarranted slur on all of us, veteran and serving. Take the pictures down.

Cheers.

  I am more than happy to oppose my " bosses" on this one. I do have to admit though that after reading some of the posts here that I find myself torn. On one hand I have already sent off an e-mail and I feel like I need to withdraw any support I had for this museum, on the other hand I feel sometimes like I should go and see the paintings and give my opinion in person.

  In the end I think we need to remember that this museum doesn't define who we are.... our service does that. 

 

[condor888000]

One thing, I am not a soldier, I do not have the same viewpoint as the majority of you do. However, I disagree with the majority of the posters in this thread. The museum is not just meant to honour those who have served in the military. It is meant to inspire remembrance. To show those who go there Canada's military history. All of it. The good. The bad. And the ugly. That is what this painting is meant to show. That our soldiers aren't supermen. That they are regular human beings that occasionally slip. Occasionally do something that they should not. Occasionally they are criminals. But more more often they are heroes. Has this country's military suffered too much as a result of this horrible action? Yes in my mind. Yet that leads to an interesting argument, for me at least. If we remember what these men did then, it can be stopped from happening again. And that is more than enough reason to have the painting hanging there in my mind. To remind us what happened, in order that it may never happen again.

I'm sure many will disagree, some forcefully, and that is your right, however, that is my point of view, and it will not change.

 

[KevinB]

I'm sure many will disagree, some forcefully, and that is your right, however, that is my point of view, and it will not change.

It will change once you get a clue.


I cut and pasted my little rant here to the CBC's email on the War Museum.

I received a email from three sources WRT the PPCLI and Airborne Associations interpretation of this matter.

Fellow Airborne Soldiers
Tonight on the CBC news I was appalled to see that the new war museum has commissioned and displayed paintings depicting Matchee and Brown torturing the Somali teenager Shidane Arone during the Canadian Airborne Regiment's tour in Somalia.  I am angry and insulted at the way this incident is being so prominently portrayed within the whole context of Canadian military history by the Canadian War Museum.  Canadians it seems never tire of insulting their soldiers.( Does anyone think that the US will commission any paintings of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse for its military museums.)

I was pleased to see that Clifford Chatterton as Chair of the Council of Veterans Association has spoken out strongly against these paintings.  I intend to send him a letter of support.  (CAFA is a member of the Council of Veterans Associations)

I am seeking your advice on how to effectively protest this biased and unbalanced portrayal of our airborne military heritage.  I intend to take the following steps:

    1. Write a letter to the Minister of Defence on behalf of CAFA protesting the unbalanced coverage that the war museum is giving to this incident.

    2.  Send an email to all CAFA Branches asking them to send letters to their local MPs protesting that these two paintings are receiving such prominent coverage in the War Museum.  I will send a letter to my local MP as well.  I will also request letters to  local newspaper editors from as many CAFA members as possible protesting the distorted coverage.

    3. Post a notice on Jim Steeds "Skyhorse" site asking all airborne veterans to write, email or call their local MP's office and express their outrage for the unbalanced way in which this event is being presented.

    Do you think that the right approach to this is to protest that the coverage is unbalanced in the context of our total Canadian Military History.  It is hard to say just don't depict it.  But it seems to me that we can make an argument that it is being blown out of proportion.  It is not, in my view, the mandate of the War Museum to glorify military villains such as Matchee and Brown. Any suggestion on the approach to take on this would be appreciated.  I think it will help our cause to have a common logical argument against these paintings being displayed.

Are there other influential people that we can bring into the argument on our side.  Does anyone know Peter Worthington well enough the ask him
to support us?  Does anyone have Lou Mackiezie's email address( I seem to have lost it) and could ask him to speak out against the biased portrayal of this incident? Are there any other suggestions?

What else can we do to make our case?  Your suggestions would be appreciated as soon as possible, as I would like to get action rolling tomorrow. Please reply to all addressees where appropriate.

I have included the currently serving members of the board of directors as info addresses only.  You can play as much of a part in this action
as you feel comfortable with, recognizing the restrictions on political dissent that you may be bound by.

Clay Samis
Pres. CAFA

 

[condor888000]

I'm sorry, but it hasn't. I still feel, even after reading that, that ALL actions of Canadian troops abroad and at home should be shown. No matter what they show. It may not be what is wanted by all, but it is what I feel is right. And that is what I believe this painting is meant to show.

 

[Old Sweat]

The paintings show one aspect of Somalia, and frankly the impression sucks. What about informing Canadians about the terrific job done by the RCD squadron and the members of the commandos who got out in the scrub and made a difference?

 

[condor888000]

Hopefully those aspects are portrayed as well, unfortunately, the museum has yet to open, so I don't know if they are. If the curators were doing a good job those would be showed however. Right besides what these men did. Like I said before, show the good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

[Steel Badger]

I am pretty much horrifed at the "liberalization" of the new War Museum.

The painting discussed has no business in it. Before others jump in to say "it is history blah blah blah" I saw no paintings on the old War Museum that depicted : RCAF (and other allied) misdrops on allied troops in Normandy or of the mutinies in the RCN immediately post war....

What I am trying to point out is that the painting depicts ONE INCIDENT in the history of  a regiment that served Canada in exemplary fashion. One incident.  
The average vistitor to the Museum will believe that that is the MOST IMPORTANT incident in the history of the C.A.R. That is NOT the message we should be showing to people....

With respect to Condor: Should we also produce a painiting of the one soldier from my regiment covicted with rape in 1945? He was stripped of all regimental accoutrements by the RSM of the day and sent off to 12 years hard labour? Although that is part of our history, is a painting the proper format for it to be displayed??
Should we then continue with a series of Mackenna Brother's style paintings which depict those Queen's hard bargains whose conduct reach the depths of irreponsibility???

Condor, I ( and Many many others) would not permit a painting of the "rape" I described above to be displayed in our Unit Museum. While the act itself was deplorable, and punished with a sentance that most contemporay criminals would be horrified at......ceating a paintng of the event would only serve to cheapen the sacrifce made by our soldiers in two World Wars and in Korea.....

The war museum is not the place for such a painting........Stop the darn thing now.


Just my 2 cents


SB

 

[Kat Stevens]

Why don't we display a painting of three (insert French infantry regiment's name here) members who stalked a dependent child through the streets of Lahr and killed him with a butcher knife?  The point I tried to make earlier was that there are a zillion exemplary acts of Canadian troops that are not immortalized on canvas.  My understanding is that these two representations occupy a place of prominence in the museum. I apologize if I'm off base.....

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Infanteer]

Does anyone think that the US will commission any paintings of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse for its military museums.

That statement there hit the mark - as a soldier, why do I want this crap to be the centerpiece of a museum dedicated to service?   WTF kind of logic is that?

Sure, the story can be told, but why make it the centerpiece?   To the showcase of Matchee/Brown I say BOOOOOO!