War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[jmacleod]

There has in fact been controversy about control of the famed Canadian War Museum's new facility
for some time - placing the War Museum under the mandate of the Canadian Museum of Civilization
was objected to many times from a varity of sources, including many veteran's organizations. The
Museum of Civilization has an agenda, which is focused on their interpretation of "Canadian Values"
which are the values of Ottawa based bureaucrats, with very limited input from Canadians who
actually fought the wars, served in Peace Keeping and Peace Enforcement operations, and the
rejection of a great deal of pertinent, real military history. The Canadian Airborne Regiment should
not be subject to negative comment in a national museum. The Regiment, like many in Canada's
military history had a disciplinary problem which could have been resolved in the field, and through
the military justice system. What the CWM Is doing is perpetuating a badly flawed political decision
from a government which gave Canada the Gomery Enquiry. Eventually, ongoing political focus in
perhaps a new Canadian goverment will change the Trustees and much of the staff in the CWM.
MacLeod

 

[KevinB]

I just got sick and tired of this diatribe for the last 12 years!.  I was in Cyrpus with the Para Bty when the Somalia incidents (good and bad) went down - and I was in Pet when we got to watch the US TF Ranger pers being pulled thru the streets of Mogadishu and torn apart by the crowds, at the same time our public, gov't and military was edging the CAR, Airborne Battle Group and SSF towards the shredder. 

The fact that some in our military have bought into the "public" face the gov't and to the shame of the Army and CF what we as a corporate entity did as well is sickening.  Unfortunately Somalia from the CF mission was a resounding sucess that was drown in a series of convolute and undesipherable incidents.  Why not a painting of two guys in R&R attempting to rescue a french chick from a shark attack - want to talk balls going into the water to try and rescue someone from that?  Why not highlight the good that happend - why becase the Gov't and the Army was in a Track toad heavy mind set and wanted to stamp out the jumper and light forces for good - it was politically expedient to paint a unit as rogue and sell out. 

Every unit / mission has skeletons - why because we are human are not perfect, sometimes loyalty is misplaced, and sometimes you just did not know what was going on even when you where there.

I've seen highs and lows in the Army - from Oka and Gulf1 where the CF where hero's and how we went to zero after Somalia.  Then back to good guys after the Red River Flood gong show.  Then back to dirt with the CANBAT allegation of rape and other sexual escapades with the Mental health Nurses and Inmates in Crotia.  You think anything changed with disbandment - other than losing a great capability?  The same pers that some enjoy to decry as still around today...
I wonder when the next disaster will beset us?  I KNOW several here know of incidents worse that what I mentioned, that the Gov't/Army did not find politically expedient to investigate or prosecute at that time (or at least make public).

The reason why I have a short fuse on some issues (this is not the only one) is I EXPECT that serving members of the military can acheive some common ground regardless of what element they are in or what capbadge and colour of hat they wear.  Face it we are dirt to 99.9% of the civilian world - they either elevate or lower our status in their opinion based on perceive need for our skills.  Maybe that cynical but thats been my experience ever since I originaly signed up April 27th 1987. 

The fact that some chose to place paintings of an incident that has been a wound in the Army that has not healed is worse to me than spitting in my face.  The fact that Brown get air time to breathe let alone be a poster child make me ill.  I won't go - I won't take my son, nor my parents and I will ask them to avoid it as a favour to me.  Why? because I dont want them seeing that (and I've seen both pics) and thinking of me or the CF - cause that is NOT what we do.  I'm not saying not to make up your own mind, I'm just saying WTF are you thinking.  I fail to see any honour in that sort of "statement" they have made - I view it as another sacred bound that has been broken, by the CF, the Gov't and the Canadian Public.

-Kevin

 

[chriscalow]

E-mail sent, boycott commenced.. Although I do like Bruce's idea about raising a stink in person, I might just do that.  Kevin, Good post.

 

[George Wallace]

There has in fact been controversy about control of the famed Canadian War Museum's new facility
for some time - placing the War Museum under the mandate of the Canadian Museum of Civilization
was objected to many times from a varity of sources, including many veteran's organizations. The
Museum of Civilization has an agenda, which is focused on their interpretation of "Canadian Values"
which are the values of Ottawa based bureaucrats, with very limited input from Canadians who
actually fought the wars, served in Peace Keeping and Peace Enforcement operations, and the
rejection of a great deal of pertinent, real military history. The Canadian Airborne Regiment should
not be subject to negative comment in a national museum. The Regiment, like many in Canada's
military history had a disciplinary problem which could have been resolved in the field, and through
the military justice system. What the CWM Is doing is perpetuating a badly flawed political decision
from a government which gave Canada the Gomery Enquiry. Eventually, ongoing political focus in
perhaps a new Canadian goverment will change the Trustees and much of the staff in the CWM.
MacLeod

I hope that many of you pay close attention to this post.  It is very relevant in what is happening here.

I seriously don't agree with the comments from those of you who want to boycott the CWM.  I think it would be better to go see for yourself how they (Museum of Civilization) have presented the 'artifacts' and then make you feelings known to the Staff and more importantly to the "Directors" of the Canadian War Museum and the "Master" Museum of Civilization.  That would be more effective, I believe, than boycotting simply on the word of a friend, who heard from a friend, who heard a news reporter state "blah, blah, blah!".

Gw

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I just got sick and tired of this diatribe for the last 12 years!.  I was in Cyrpus with the Para Bty when the Somalia incidents (good and bad) went down - and I was in Pet when we got to watch the US TF Ranger pers being pulled thru the streets of Mogadishu and torn apart by the crowds, at the same time our public, gov't and military was edging the CAR, Airborne Battle Group and SSF towards the shredder. 

The fact that some in our military have bought into the "public" face the gov't and to the shame of the Army and CF what we as a corporate entity did as well is sickening.  Unfortunately Somalia from the CF mission was a resounding sucess that was drown in a series of convolute and undesipherable incidents.  Why not a painting of two guys in R&R attempting to rescue a french chick from a shark attack - want to talk balls going into the water to try and rescue someone from that?  Why not highlight the good that happend - why becase the Gov't and the Army was in a Track toad heavy mind set and wanted to stamp out the jumper and light forces for good - it was politically expedient to paint a unit as rogue and sell out. 

Every unit / mission has skeletons - why because we are human are not perfect, sometimes loyalty is misplaced, and sometimes you just did not know what was going on even when you where there.

I've seen highs and lows in the Army - from Oka and Gulf1 where the CF where hero's and how we went to zero after Somalia.  Then back to good guys after the Red River Flood gong show.  Then back to dirt with the CANBAT allegation of rape and other sexual escapades with the Mental health Nurses and Inmates in Crotia.  You think anything changed with disbandment - other than losing a great capability?  The same pers that some enjoy to decry as still around today...
I wonder when the next disaster will beset us?  I KNOW several here know of incidents worse that what I mentioned, that the Gov't/Army did not find politically expedient to investigate or prosecute at that time (or at least make public).

The reason why I have a short fuse on some issues (this is not the only one) is I EXPECT that serving members of the military can acheive some common ground regardless of what element they are in or what capbadge and colour of hat they wear.  Face it we are dirt to 99.9% of the civilian world - they either elevate or lower our status in their opinion based on perceive need for our skills.  Maybe that cynical but thats been my experience ever since I originaly signed up April 27th 1987. 

The fact that some chose to place paintings of an incident that has been a wound in the Army that has not healed is worse to me than spitting in my face.  The fact that Brown get air time to breathe let alone be a poster child make me ill.  I won't go - I won't take my son, nor my parents and I will ask them to avoid it as a favour to me.  Why? because I dont want them seeing that (and I've seen both pics) and thinking of me or the CF - cause that is NOT what we do.  I'm not saying not to make up your own mind, I'm just saying WTF are you thinking.  I fail to see any honour in that sort of "statement" they have made - I view it as another sacred bound that has been broken, by the CF, the Gov't and the Canadian Public.

-Kevin

I'll copy my post from the other thread here also.

Well stated, Kevin B.

We have a display in our own Regimental museum, devoted to Japanese-Canadians.  We had several serve in our predecessor unit, the 10th Battalion CEF, in the trenches.  Some won valour awards, many were praised for bravery.

The Canadian government interned many of these veterans during the Second World War.

Some say not a proud moment in Canadian history.  Others say "you know what?  There was a war on."  Certainly another hot button issue.  Can't say I'm proud of the fact we had concentration camps, and imprisoned MM and DCM winners based on their race.  Also hard to judge what they were thinking 60 years ago.

It happened.

The Somalia affair had a huge impact on the CF and even, I daresay, Canadian history.  Is it something to be proud of?  Not on your life.  Should it be given attention out of proportion to the other missions that the Airborne successfully prosecuted?  I don't know.  I wasn't there, but bear in mind that the museum is in fact for the 99% of the population that wasn't there - and in 100 years, it will be 100 percent of the population, just as 100 percent of the museum visitors right NOW have never served in the Boer War. They've all joined the ranks of the white battalions.  The history of the Airborne is there for the rest of us to interpret - the museum can't just cater to the 0.001% of the population that lived it.

What is in the best interest of the public?  I would like to see - if it is really necessary to showcase this event - a fair and even treatment.  We don't know, based on the rantings of some media types, if that has been done.  I think we all have some pretty deep suspicions, rightly so.  Calling for a boycott of an insitution (whomever did this) so vital to the continued good health of the military community in Canada seems a little premature at this point.

I don't think the event should be exaggerated, though nor do I think it should be trivialized.  Why do we have SHARP now?  Why do we watch the X's and O's?  The entire culture of the CF changed as a result of this event, with it the way we do business, even the way we think.  The disbandment of the Airborne is irrelevant, and shouldn't even be part of the discussion.  That was my mistake.  I should have avoided the same, tired old political hacks on this site who see liberal conspiracies in everything that happens.  I say again - the disbandment is irrelevant to the issue of the painting.

If we can seperate the two - and that, again, was my fault - then we can discuss the matter a little more calmly I think.

 

[Roger]

  I say again - the disbandment is irrelevant to the issue of the painting.

If we can seperate the two - and that, again, was my fault - then we can discuss the matter a little more calmly I think.

Actually we see things quite differently, this has all to do with the disbandment. The reason the Regiment was disbanded was totally do to this individual. The disbandment was a political decision; therefore if they put up the painting they are going forth with that political position. End of story.

Also going back to how long the Canadian Airborne Regiment has been around, go to a veteran's hospital and look around for some old WWII veterans, I go every Christmas. They where the Canadian Airborne Regiment badge and the colors of the Canadian Airborne Regiment had the WWII battle honours, hence we where considered the same Regiment.

We can trace the history of almost all of the Regiments in Canada and most had different names at one time or another but still consider themselves the same Regiment, case in point the Sherbrooke Hussars.

 

[George Wallace]

Also going back to how long the Canadian Airborne Regiment has been around, go to a veteranâ ™s hospital and look around for some old WWII veterans, I go every Christmas. They where the Canadian Airborne Regiment badge and the colors of the Canadian Airborne Regiment had the WWII battle honours, hence we where considered the same Regiment.

I'll have to call you on that.   1 Can Paras Cap Badge is very similar to that of the CAR, but it is not the same badge.   The CAR Colours perpetuate the Battle Honours of 1 Can Para and 1 SSF.   That does not mean that they are 1 SSF or 1 Can Para.   The CAR were born in 1968, after some attempts were made at organizations such as a Canadian SAS, and other organizations, who trained in Rivers Manitoba.  

As for the boycott......again, don't go on heresay.   If you really want to let them know, go and see them in person.   If you want to compare the Museum of Civilizations justification to hanging those paintings to the hanging of a portrait of Mark Lapine in a Woman's Museum or a Museum in l'Ecole de Polytechnique, go ahead.   Boycotting the CWM will accomplish little.   Go and see it, and perhaps voice your opinions in the presence of other visitors.   Expand your "Fire Base" and perhaps enlighten the 'unknowing Public'.

 

[Britney Spears]

News of the boycott has been making the rounds here, and for what it's worth, none of my civvie friends who are familiar with the situation think very highly of the boycott or the attitude that spawned it. The pictures in question have not slandered or defamed the repuation of the CAR or it's former members, since it contains nothing factually incorrect or intentionally misleading.  You can prattle on about the details(and what "REALLY" happened) all you want, but in the eyes of the Canadian public, the boycott is making us all look like cowards who are afraid to look back, and we'd be much better off just accepting the facts and moving on. Such is the nature of public relations in a liberal democracy.  It seems the legion understands the game a bit better than the other fellow.

 

[Roger]

I'll have to call you on that.   1 Can Paras Cap Badge is very similar to that of the CAR, but it is not the same badge.  

My god, George, you really want to make your point here I see. I did not say they wore the same badge, I said go to a Veterans hospital and see what badge they are wearing now, today, at this time. They all or should I say 99% of them where the Canadian Airborne Regiment badge, that was formed in 1968 as you keep bringing up.

Please read my post.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So is it just a painting in the museum or is ti a centerpiece for the exhibit??

If it's just a painting i would chalk it up to bad taste. If it's a type of center piece, well thats retarded.

Canadians refuse to put the somalia incident in proper perspective.  I'm always amazed at how ingrained this thing is into everything that is military.  

 

[camochick]

I think, in Canada there is a tendancy to sweep bad things under the rug and pretend they never happened. But what makes this country so great, like many other countries is our history. Good or bad, it's ours and it has shaped us and our country. I agree with others that perhaps everyone should go see the exhibit first before making snap judgements. Does anyone know what will be said in the museum about the paintings. There will most certainly be some sort of history posted about the signifigance of the paintings. Why not wait and see what is actually in the exhibit before deciding that you don't like it?
This whole thing is making a huge deal out of something so small and the media is feeding on it, so now the military is looking bad again and the whole incident is being brought up again, so what the boycott is trying to achieve isnt really working.

 

[combat_medic]

Having seen the pictures of the paintings, I do agree that they are definitely in poor taste, particularly the one of Matchee. I think, however, that seeing them in context will determine whether or not the museum directors or curators were trying to be deliberately inflammatory and insulting to the CAR vets.

That being said, and I know this is not to the same degree, but there are Holocaust museums and memorials throughout Germany and Europe. These are deliberately memorializing extremely bleak events in Germany's history. The majority of German soldiers in WWII were probably not participants in these atrocities, nor were most even aware of the extent of what was going on, but I think everyone can agree that there is a still need for such memorials to exist, no matter how it may look for those who were not involved.

As for the Canadian museum, I'm not sure what to think. If they have, indeed, tried to paint the entire CAR with the brush of being violent neanderthals, then I feel that a boycott, and more pro-actively, a letter-writing campaign would definitely be in order, but I think that finding out how the information and material is being presented should happen first. Like Bruce and others, I think that registering your complaints and concerns in person to one of the museum directors would go a lot further. An even better gesture, in my opinion, would be for the CAR vets to get together and prepare their own pieces, writings, and materials to present to the museum to either counter the current exhibit(s), or to replace them with something that they feel is more fitting. I hear all the time from former Airborne soldiers about all the unsung heroes, like the whole shark incident. Why not tell those stories? If the media continues to try to paint the CAR with the same brush, then maybe these stories of heroism should be getting out there. Right now the media are the only ones doing the talking, so who else are people going to listen to? Perhaps using the museum as a vehicle would be the way to go about things.

/my two cents.

 

[Danjanou]

I remember a long time a go some art teacher telling me the main purpose of art was to â Å“stir debate and incite passionâ ? or â Å“incite debate and stir passionâ ? or some metaphysical babble like that. Based on what I've read here I guess I was wrong when I thought she was once more spewing out of her fifth point of contact.

I seem the validity in the arguments from both sides here. I also see it as ironic  considering the topic that the fact we are allowed to hold and express so passionately  such diverse opinions at all today is due to the those men who scarified their youth and innocence and in many cases so much some 60 years ago  and that we are now honouring.

As a former soldier, a military historian and just for the hell of it a taxpayer and Canadian I have some concerns re the inclusion of this painting in the new war museum.  I agree we should not hide any aspects of our history including those shameful aspects of it. However we should look at them in the context that they really happened. What happened in that bunker in Somalia back then we all agree was an aberration and not in any way condoned or representative of our military heritage as a whole.

I've been wondering ever since the announcement we were to get a new War Museum and saw under whose auspices it would fall and their well known and already discussed here agenda just what would be the result. Maybe it's the inherent cynicism of middle age but I was afraid we'd end up with a bigger shinier domestic version of the Juno Beach museum after the Feds belatedly got involved with that project.

For those not sure of what I'm talking about, check out the posts on the site by one of the members here on that travesty. Bare mention in passing of our contributions during the entire Second World War let alone June 6, 1944 like one would expect there. Instead we ended up with an homage to our happy sappy singing and dancing great multicultural ,political correct, ignore the issues they'll go away, vote Liberal for life society.

That said and done I'll reserve comment and/or criticism of the new museum until I actually go and see the place.  If it (the paintng) is one piece among many there, controversial or not, I will give it the attention it deserves (minimal I would think) and move on. If it appears, as some here suggest, it is part of some politically correct anti military stance or agenda by the 'intelligentsiaâ ? then I will make my disgust for this perversion of our shared history known.

I fully respect those that choose to boycott it, which is their choice. I tend to think that their honourable and passionate stance though will be misinterpreted by the general populace. Concepts like honour and integrity and standing for principles which we hold as real truths are really not as well practiced by our society at large anymore sadly.

Mind I also doubt that formal or informal complaints will also meet with any success if that is indeed the case. They after all no better than us poor peons right. Including what is good for us or not. ( smiking, criminal rights, how to spend our tax dollars etc etc)

Finally, passionate debate is one thing.  We do need to remember most if not all of us on this site (regular, reserve, serving and/or retired) share many things in common including our sense of right and wrong and mutual respect for our chosen profession. Things have been said here and alluded to that perhaps should not have been. Lets try and chalk it up to the heat of the moment  and hopefully not allow it to afffect future actions/discussions. This place, and we deserve better.

 

[PatricianSailor]

$10,000 bucks to Commission those paintings!!!!    Christ..................Im surprised they didnt have that guy who got a sex change in the New War Museum somewhere. God damn bleeding hearts are taking over everything!!!!! Its supposed to be a place where people can go to gain inspiration from those who have fought and died for this country.........NOTE TO ALL THE BLEEDING HEARTS------------------------>  If you want Artsy fartsy stuff put that shit in an Art Gallery, dont pollute a first rate military heritage with the shit you call 'Art'

PS- This post is not a slag on War Artists........theyve done a fine job.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Paradoxically, that sacrifice by those soldiers was to ensure such 'artsy fartsy' types would have such freedom of expression within our society and those of our friends and allies, to the extent possible by their political and societal natures.

 

[squealiox]

i have another suggestion for "artwork" the museum can use to illustrate the whole CAR saga.

how about a big photo of the airborne troops being marched off the parade square for the last time, for the crimes of a few ... and right beside that, a big photo of the part in the SHARP syllabus that forbids the collective punishment of troops.

 

[Art Johnson]

Michael re your Artsy Fartsy comments. I think you and others are missing the point. If you say this is part of our Military History then why is there not a picture of a Naval Lieutenant doing a strip dance in a Gay Bar in Halifax displayed, or maybe a portrait of a young officer delivering pizza in Pettawawa displayed, these are certainly part of the Canadian Military life. There have been troubles at the Canadian War Museum for years. Those in power wanted a Holocaust section  in the War Museum the only person of note on the staff at that time to fight it was Jewish and it cost him his job.
What individual display do you think will stand out to visitors of the Museum? Do you think that a picture of Canadian Soldiers pulling Dutch children on a sled will be uppermost in their minds? Not likely, they will remember the horrifying ten foot tall picture of a Canadian Soldier killing a Somali Civilian.
We should be putting our best foot forward and as far as Somalia is concerned show the good work that 3 Commando did.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Tess,

Am I to understand that the display of you and your compadre, shot up Iltis and all, was removed from the current displays? While Matchee and Brown were given prominent spots as a patron enters the museum?

If this is the case, I see it as nothing less than the sitting governments attempt to defile and decrease the perception of the "Warrior Ethic" we try and strive, to uphold in our degraded and demeaned Canadian Armed Forces. They have tried, and succeded, through years of cohersion, with the Canadian press and the like, to show us as the "Boy Scouts of the World". They cannot abide a "Warrior Class" within their Utopian Society (until they need us).

I can only imagine the curators (how many of them have actually served) dancing with glee at the outrage they have produced within the "vile, uncouth, plebien groups of Servicemen".  They will justify their actions by saying "Look at the dialog we have caused!".

Nobody but Veterans should be in charge of such a sancroscinct establishment as the War Museum.

Let US tell our story, not some paid off, political hack, appointed by our corrupt government, with an agenda to quell, or enrage, the agenda of the Leftist assholles who've taken hold of the pioneer spirit of our great country.

OK, I'm better now. I'll put away the gas, rags and bottles. Probably would've spilled most of it by the time I got to Ottawa anyway

 

[pbi]

I received an e-mail yesterday from the President of the PPCLI Asso in the Wpg area. In it he asks to mobilize support to protest the inclusion of the images of Brown and Matchee that are prominently displayed in the Museum. Apparently these images are very large (I heard "ten feet high"). What the hell is up with that? Is that how we honour the Canadians who have served this country, and who are serving it now? As an institution and as a profession we have already paid a huge price for the actions of these two criminal aberrants: how much more do we have to pay? Are we the Germans, to have our past sins constantly brought to our attention? I have not seen these images but I have no difficulty believing in the existence of the lefty, guilt-mongering, apologetic attitude that would equate all us soldiers with these two miscreants. After all, we're all just a bunch of psychopathic high school drop outs, right? Anybody who would accept the duty to kill must be a sicko, right?

I circulated the e-mail amongst all of our Bde Honoraries. Those of us still serving in the RegF may be in a difficult spot in opposing the Govt on this, but there are lots of Canadians who are not. I urge everybody here who has similar feelings to express them in whatever effective way you can.

In my opinion this is an unwarranted slur on all of us, veteran and serving. Take the pictures down.

Cheers.

 

[mover1]

Bad taste.

Does the 1945 riot in Halifax get equal coverage. Why did they get a Toronto Artist to paint these pictures. Were the originals not hideous enough. Is there an online petition being started up? I am writing my MP right now.