War Museum Controversy and Follow-up Thread [merged]

[Blakey]

Until those paintings are taken off those walls, i will not step one foot into that place, and it will get no monetary support from me Period

 

[Michael Dorosh]

And I thought the tacvest thread would never die.......

Didn't KevinB have a starring role there, too....?

I think this is going nowhere fast....

I understand your point, KevinB, and hopefully, the context of the display WHICH NO ONE HAS SEEN YET will provide some clue as to the good deeds performed by the Airborne in Somalia.  Let's wait and see instead of acting hysterical.

 

[Canadian Sig]

Is it just me or does this country have an undying need to beat itself up and punish itself forever for it's mistakes instead of honouring it's triumphs and great deeds? I do believe in the phase "lest we forget" but this still rings badly for my ears.

 

[Strike]

So, we sit here and rave that the whole CAR was tainted by the act of a few and now you are going to condemn a whole museum because of two paintings?  Seems you are doing the same thing you say you disagree with.

I am not saying I agree with the paintings.  I have seen them both and strongly disagree with the Matchee one due to its graphic nature and the negative light it puts the CAR in.  The Brown one is a different story.  The whole point of these two paintings was to show how a high stress environment can affect a soldier.  The Brown one (he is holding both a black and white die in each hand) does this quite well.  The other one just stirs up bad feelings.

 

[Bill22108131]

Certainly a lot of emotions at play over this thread.  Just to clarify a couple points, the CAR was established in 1968.  I understand that the thousands of members of the CAR are proud, but please explain to me your accomplishments.  I know I am waving a red flag in front of a bull, but honestly other than the 1974 mission to Cypress, what did the CAR do before 1974 and until Somalia, what did they do in between.  I was in 2PPCLI in the mid 80s, IMHO two kinds of soldiers went to the airborne, the extremely good and the very weak (again the red flag).  The disbandment was a stupid political decision and was only a repetition of many such stupid decisions for decades prior.  The guilty bas***ds who murdered a hungry teen and the equally guilty who ignored the screams are the real failures.  Subsequent releases of video tape of hazing and leaders (WOs & officers) ducking for cover to save their as*es again lent no faith to the Canadian public.  I visited the old war museum.  I have also visited concentration camps in Europe.  Atrocities occur.  They are part of our history and should not be pushed aside because they piss us off or shame us.  As Canadians we own part of the museum, as warriors we contribute to its content.  Don't visit - go take a look, do one or the other as a tax paying Canadian.  Next time you take a prisoner or are the leader of someone who does, make sure you know WTF is going on and keep your new charges safe.  Only my two pennies but that seems to be the vent of the thread. 

Bill

 

[camochick]

It's art. Art doesnt have to be nice, or smart or pretty. It is what it is. You can make the choice not to go to the museum, or you can make the choice to go. It's pretty simple. In wwII the germans were responsible for the deaths of millions, yet they have memorials to those atrocities. These paintings show a part of our history. It's not something we are proud of but it is something that has happened.

 

[2 Cdo]

No way, not a chance will I grace the foyer of this place! As an ex-member of the Airborne I don't think I could justify spending my hard earned money to be reminded of why the regiment was disbanded. For those of you who have a problem with that, you probably never served with the Airborne.

Have a good one!

 

[Jungle]

I understand that the thousands of members of the CAR are proud, but please explain to me your accomplishments.   I know I am waving a red flag in front of a bull, but honestly other than the 1974 mission to Cypress, what did the CAR do before 1974 and until Somalia, what did they do in between.  

Did anyone in our Army do anything serious between 1975 and 1992 ?? The CAR did like the rest of the Army: train. That is what we did back then, because apart from the occasional roto to Cyprus, we were not involved in ops during that period.

Next time you take a prisoner or are the leader of someone who does, make sure you know WTF is going on and keep your new charges safe.  Only my two pennies but that seems to be the vent of the thread.

WTF is that supposed to mean ?? I'm a former member of the CAR, served there for 7 years. I have been in ops after the disbandment and handled detainees and refugees. I have taken bad guys away from local lynch mobs, and given them water and food, then pushed them up the PW chain. No problems there, so what's your point ??
Loyalty is a two-way thing; I will not visit the museum either...

 

[George Wallace]

First thing that is nagging me is the guys who are saying that they are not going to pay to visit the CWM.  Don't!   It is free for all Vets and Serving Members of the CF.

Next.  I was enraged to see the painting of Kyle Brown on the wall behind a Museum Worker in an interview on TV.  I didn't think it appropriate.  However, they moved on and explained the "Artsy Fartsy" portrait of him holding a black cube in one hand and a white cube in the other and the symbolism that the artist was trying to get across and it made more sense.  I never saw the Machee painting, but that isn't going to stop me from visiting.

The CWM has an extensive collection of War Art.  They will have to rotate it through the displays over a long period of time to ever be able to display the large portion of it.  As such and with the changes in the bureaucracy there, I am sure that both paintings will eventually move.  

 

[Bill22108131]

Respectfully to 2 Cdo and all his ilk, I don't believe anyone is trying to convince you to go the the War Museum.  Perhaps given the raw emotion displayed, and the great number of young and inexperienced readers who partake in army.ca, we are just offering dissenting opinions.  We all make our own decisions (thankfully) and you and I have made ours.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[Roger]

Well shame on you guy's for going to the museum, you are no friend of mine. Even Cliff Chadderton the head of the War Amps and a WWII veteran is livid.

This is an issue that should have the suport of all members of the forces and veterans, and the CAR was first established in WWII, and also thank you for briging up the hazing rituals.

And just for all of your information, it was one person that killed the individual, not the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

 

[Big Foot]

Chop, I really don't agree with your last statement. Why should you shame me for being in the Guard of Honour for the opening of the museum? I will be damned proud to go on parade for an event like this. I think we're missing the whole point that this museum will be providing a history of war in Canada. This means it will illustrate the high and low points. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the portrait of that particular soldier being in the entrance, but there is much more to the museum than that. I am quite sure that the CAR will have its highlights illustrated in the museum. Look at the big picture, not the one or two paintings that are being so highly publicized.

 

[aesop081]

Well shame on you guy's for going to the museum, you are no friend of mine. Even Cliff Chadderton the head of the War Amps and a WWII veteran is livid.

This is an issue that should have the suport of all members of the forces and veterans, and the CAR was first established in WWII, and also thank you for briging up the hazing rituals.

NO...the 1st Canadian Parachute battallion was  established in WWII...not the CAR

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I will be going and if I find the paintings offensive and insulting to ANY regt. ,I will be more than happy to vent my distaste to the appropriate people and very rudely if necessary,
...those of you who huff and puff and say you won't visit are just burying your head in the sand.

Want to change it?....., go and make your complaint in person.

*** or we could make our own little plague to put under it*** >

 

[Infanteer]

If the Calgary Highlanders brutally murdered a teenage civilian detainee, performed hazing rituals on new soldiers, and exceeded their rules of engagement, they would deserve to be disbanded, but that's another argument I won't go into again here.

Well Michael - I'm sure that lies in the closet of the Cal Highs - I've heard a few of first-hand accounts of executing POW's, looting, and what-not from a few vets who were overseas 60 some-odd years ago; shit happens (like a few retards and trouble in the C-of-C) but when you walk into the Cal High Museum you don't see this front and center.

The troubles in Somalia are well worth reflecting on and do have a place in a survey of Military history - however, sticking it front and center in a museum dealing with a few hundred years of Canadian military history reeks of self-flagellation.

If I'm in the area, I plan on doing the same thing Bruce does (this is why I like Bruce, he has a head on his shoulders....).

 

[vangemeren]

*** or we could make our own little plague to put under it***

Like the bubonic plague? I like the idea of starting the plague at the War Museum. :blotto:


.... Or we could put a Plaque, Bruce What ever floats your boat I guess.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Gee, where would we find the room?.......... We would have to move your spelling degree over to one side....... :-[

 

[Kat Stevens]

Gee, where would we find the room?.......... We would have to move your spelling degree over to one side....... :-[

BWAHAHAHAH!! Just poured coffee all over myself! ;D

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Infanteer]

This is why I like Bruce, he's got a head on his shoulders AND he's got a sense of humour.

 

[vangemeren]

I'm prood ove mee speeling daagree.  ;D I should be the last one to bother people about spelling.
If you were to put a plaque, what would it say? (A plague would get the message across better I think.) :blotto: