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U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/news/theeditorialpage/story.html?id=4f09e47c-222a-4555-82b8-1afc18575bf2
Refugee board made right move
U.S. soldier's asylum argument simply didn't hold water
 
Calgary Herald
Monday, March 28, 2005

It never looked for a minute as though U.S. army deserter Jeremy Hinzman was a genuine refugee. Thus, the Immigration and Refugee Board's decision to refuse his bid for political asylum gives us some assurance that Canada's creaky system for considering refugee claims can produce a right answer, despite the copious criticism justly heaped upon it.
We are concerned, however, at how long it takes to do it. Determining citizenship is a key element of sovereignty; that it took 14 months to deal with such a straightforward case suggests the board needs to be better resourced.

Hinzman joined up for a four-year engagement in November 2000. Later, he volunteered to be a paratrooper, and ended up in the 82nd Airborne Division. While in Afghanistan with his unit, he was apparently affected by pacifist ideas, applied for conscientious objector status, and was allowed to serve out his tour of duty on non-combatant duties.
His application to be considered a conscientious objector was later denied, however. So, days before his unit was to leave for service in Iraq, Hinzman decamped to Canada and claimed asylum as a refugee.
The basis of his appeal was that the war in Iraq was illegal, that if he hurt or killed anybody he would be guilty of a criminal act, and that if he was returned to the U.S., he faced cruel and unusual punishment.

It is good the board didn't buy his story, for this young man seems to be badly mixed-up on some basic principles. For instance, he is a volunteer. Nobody pushed him into the army, unless one considers the prospect of financial assistance through college to be a conscience-bending drug, too powerful for ordinary people to decline.
There is also an unwritten understanding that while merely following orders is a poor defence against accusations of immoral conduct, one doesn't get to pick and choose one's wars.
Having taken the oath, Hinzman's job for four years was to serve. And indeed, the board declared the legality or otherwise of the war in Iraq to be irrelevant.

It also rightly held that Hinzman's case failed the basic test of what constitutes a refugee, namely someone with "a well-founded fear" of persecution. If returned to the U.S., that's not what Hinzman is facing, just a court martial on charges that could net him up to five years in the stockade. No holiday camp, certainly, but hardly cruel and unusual punishment, either.
Unfortunately, the board's decision merely places Hinzman on the next rung of an appeals ladder that capable attorneys have used to prevent the deportation of far less desirable refugee applicants than he.
Heaven forbid Canadians should deny justice to strangers within their gates, but they would do well to administer it more speedily.

© The Calgary 

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/03/28/pf-974116.html
Mon, March 28, 2005

His legacy's painted in yellow

By Peter Worthington

Although some are disappointed, no one should be surprised that U.S. army deserter Jeremy Hinzman's bid to be a "refugee" has been rejected.
Hinzman himself says he expected this decision from the Immigration and Refugee Board, and will launch his appeal today. It will likely enable him to remain in Canada for years like other illegals.
Looking at it objectively, it's hard to imagine a case weaker than Hinzman. His three main themes for deserting are: 1. Iraq is an "illegal" war (what's a "legal" war, one wonders?); 2. He was afraid he'd have to commit atrocities in Iraq; 3. He decided he was a conscientious objector, even though he volunteered to become a paratrooper in America's most gung-ho unit, the 82nd Airborne.

'Fear of combat'

While good manners dictate that no one wants to come out and say it, it's hard to escape the stark conclusion that Jeremy Hinzman is a coward.
A Globe and Mail editorial put it gently -- and I'd agree: "A person (Hinzman) is clearly not a refugee if his only reason for desertion is his dislike of military service or fear of combat."

The army was fine when he joined 10 months before 9/11, and being a macho paratrooper gave him status until on the eve of being sent to Iraq when he ran away to Canada.
True, he served in Afghanistan -- where he was refused conscientious objector status. Perhaps out of deference to his newly found pacifism, he was relegated to kitchen duty. Safe but unheroic.
No one is sure how many U.S. deserters are hiding out in Canada. Maybe 100, maybe 200. Interestingly, their lawyers and supporters tend to be former Vietnam draft dodgers.

But these guys today aren't draft dodgers -- a qualitative difference. There is no draft in the U.S. It's a volunteer army, like ours.
These guys are deserters, and there's a certain disdain for deserters. Even during Vietnam, a draft dodger was more acceptable than a deserter, which reeks of cowardice no matter how one sugarcoats it.
That said, as reported by the Wall Street Journal, Detroit Free Press and others, Hinzman's lawyer Jeffry House came up with a novel defence on the CBC: "We don't believe people should be imprisoned for doing what they believe is illegal."

Bicycle courier

Hmmm.
A poster boy for deserters, today Hinzman is a bicycle courier. It's a far cry from the university education he says he joined the army to get -- until the shooting started.
The "cruel and unusual" punishment he thinks he'd get if he returned to the U.S. would be at most five years in prison, but more likely one year. Neither very cruel, nor unusual.

Despite Canada's meek support for U.S. policy and our opposition to the war in Iraq, Canadians are generally admiring of their own military and not enthusiastic about deserters.
Canada, with Paul Martin as PM, is different from Canada when Jean Chretien was PM and his party striving to loot the till.
Martin clearly seeks to restore damaged relations with the U.S. Despite his verbal opposition to missile defence it doesn't mean a damn thing because, under NORAD, Canada is already a partner in continental defence.

Hinzman will be an anti-war hero to those aging anti-Vietniks who came here 30 to 40 years ago, and to the CBC which viscerally dislikes our military and revels in anything anti-American.
He can attend anti-U.S. rallies and ride his courier bike on our streets and live a sort of twilight life and never amount to much. But mostly he's a sad young man whose judgment is flawed and whose courage is questioned.

Not much of a legacy.



 
LeGars said:
What an arse. If he was pragmatic, he would've applied for scholarships and bursaries. He ran away from the duty he swore to do. He promised legally to do as he was told, to be a soldier. You play the game, you take the pain, Cliches ad nauseum.

  I agree this guy comes here to run away from the duties that he signed up for and he should stand up ti that responsibility it really makes me mad because all these guys that are itching to join the army and this loser deserts because he doesn't want to do his job. What a loser
 
I've heard of the Young Liberals. They are a key aspect in forming Liberal policy to keep in touch with the up and comers. I've also heard of the Young Conservatives. I've seen ads on T.V. for these, and our other official parties. What I haven't seen is a widespread recruitment campaign by the Communist Party, the Anarchists, The Hippies, or the other end of the spectrum groups the Facists. I might need you to explain this claim a little more.

Without a doubt protesters cover the demographic spectrum,  probably some soldiers in that group also..maybe even gay ones.
Here's a sample of links off Google of activist groups affiliiated with campuses:
http://dmoz.org/Society/Organizations/Student/Political/
http://www.campusactivism.org/
http://www.utwatch.org/student_groups.html
http://www.brown.edu/Students/BEC/
http://www.jour.unr.edu/zephyr/spring05/story2/activism.html
http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/1995/09/weiss.html
http://www.campusaction.net/links/links_student_activists.htm
http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=46fb7c0d-5ce4-4652-a431-2c0c0526f8ae - current student action in Quebec


BKells,

Not sure when I became the aggressor, did I touch a nerve? Let me guess you're a student/reservist on yout first BE?

No need to get personal (" grizzled old war hero"??) . I'm neither, definetely not grizzled and farm from a hero/vet. The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to waht was experienced by troops  in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....

Anyway..enough said. I think the today's posted articles sum up everyone's sentiments quite well.













 
they sign the papers no one held a gun to there face forget about sending them back to american send there asses to iraq... if nothing good comes of it it wil llet deserter think twice beofr comnig to canada .. (dam deserters) :threat:

:cdn:
 
BKells,

Not sure when I became the aggressor, did I touch a nerve? Let me guess you're a student/reservist on yout first BE?

No need to get personal (" grizzled old war hero"??) . I'm neither, definetely not grizzled and farm from a hero/vet. The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to waht was experienced by troops   in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....

Anyway..enough said. I think the today's posted articles sum up everyone's sentiments quite well.

Nicely put Spr039, no truer words have ever been spoken.

But to young pups like "Bkells", guys like us with a number of hitches under our belts might seem a little
long in the tooth. But to this day, I'd rather go into the line with a Grizzled old Sargent than a 90 day wonder
straight from ROTC. (no disrespect to 2/Lts intended).

To make a point, why does "BKells" figure that a newly Graduated Police Officer is assigned to a Seasoned
Police Officer for two years, I can vouch for this, so he doesn't get his head split open, so he doesn't get himself shot, or worse still, unnecessarily shoot someone else or try to Arrest or Ticket half the City.


But back on topic, IMOP, any discovered Military Desertor should be arrested and put on the next bus back to the U.S. and the waiting arms of the M.P.s. The sooner we rid our selves of this garbage the better.















 
BKells,

Not sure when I became the aggressor, did I touch a nerve? Let me guess you're a student/reservist on yout first BE?

No need to get personal (" grizzled old war hero"??) . I'm neither, definetely not grizzled and farm from a hero/vet. The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to waht was experienced by troops  in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....

Anyway..enough said. I think the today's posted articles sum up everyone's sentiments quite well.

Nicely put Spr039, no truer words have ever been spoken.

But to young pups like "Bkells", guys like us with a number of hitches under our belts might seem a little
long in the tooth. But to this day, I'd rather go into the line with a Grizzled old Sargent than a 90 day wonder
straight from ROTC. (no disrespect to 2/Lts intended).

To make a point, why does "BKells" figure that a newly Graduated Police Officer is assigned to a Seasoned
Police Officer for two years, I can vouch for this, so he doesn't get his head split open, so he doesn't get himself shot, or worse still, unnecessarily shoot someone else or try to Arrest or Ticket half the City.


But back on topic, IMOP, any discovered Military Desertor should be arrested and put on the next bus back to the U.S. and the waiting arms of the M.P.s. The sooner we rid our selves of this garbage the better.

If I were you I would quit while your ahead pal.  I am not gonna waste my time to argue this one!

If you need my opinion on reservists and veterans we can either take it to PM's or look at some of my previous threads

dileas

tess
 
the 48th regulator said:
If I were you I would quit while your ahead pal.   I am not gonna waste my time to argue this one!

If you need my opinion on reservists and veterans we can either take it to PM's or look at some of my previous threads

dileas

tess


Your quite right!, lets not waste to much time on this, Reservists or Veterans never came into the
question. Maybe your confusing posts, the wording "Student/Reservist" was made by spr039.

But even at that, there was nothing derogatory or demeaning towards Reservist and only praise for our
Veterans by spr039.

As far as carrying on a discussion with you on any subject by PM.s, anything ,anytime I have anything to
say to you I can do it in open Forum.

 
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1119448188359_114857388/?hub=Canada

I understand that this NDP MP wants to allow US deserters to stay in Canada; the term Blow Back comes to mind as it was thrown around for a long time about Afghanistan.  Well I think this could be very disasterous for US-CDN trade and relations.

Unfortunately these deserters seem to have a following in Canada, I would personally like to have a chat with them and remind them of the oath they took.  This oath was taken freely without mental reservation and they better be held to it!
 
This is perhaps the most ludacris statement I have heard yet about this subject
Canada should welcome such ex-soldiers, Siksay said, inviting the message it would send the world.

"We don't want soldiers who check their conscience at the door when they sign up," the NDP MP said.

It has nothing to do with conscience and everything to do with cowardice.  How can people support these idiots, they signed on the dotted line voluntarily.  And now they don't have the guts to fulfil their obligations.  We should in all rights send these people straight back, no hearings no nothing, they are NOT refugees.  They are making a mockery (if that is still possible) of our refugee system.  If Canada lets these cowards stay it WILL come back to bite us in the @$$ there is no doubt in my mind about that.  Vietnam and the draft was over 30 years ago people, time to let it go.  They volunteered and then they reneged, put in prison where they belong.
 
Does Canada and the US not have an extradition treaty?

These cowards should be happy to go back to the US.  They can't be in Leavenworth and Iraq at the same time.

When asked whether that's not just part of the job, Key told Canada AM his Iraq tour wasn't exactly what he enlisted for.

BAHAHAHA.  Yeah, I'm sure he joined for the money and women the same as the rest of us.  Nothing builds character like wearing coveralls and eating slop off of trays for a few years. 
 
Hatchet Man said:
...It has nothing to do with conscience and everything to do with cowardice.  

Damn straight. I have no problem (well maybe a few) with someone opposing this or any conflict for whatever reason in the country itself. Make your stand and then accept the consequences of those actions whatever they may be. I may disagree with that petty officer in San Francisco who missed his ship as he refused to go to Iraq., but I'd buy him a beer. He stood up for what he thought was right and was court-martialed for it.

He didn't slink off across the border and then try and hide his cowardice in some cloak of pathetic self serving self righteousness like those oxygen thieves now lurking here in Toronto and being feted by the granola brigade as â Å“heroes.â ?

You accept all a society has to offer you that, then you do not turn around and run and hide when it wants something back in return. Especially as in the case of these â Å“individualsâ ? who willing agreed to serve knowing full well what the consequences of their actions.

Major Baker anytime you feel like a road trip to the big smoke sir, be my pleasure to help you track down these errant spoiled children so you can have a little face to face chat with them on â Å“responsibilities.â ?
 
Some interesting quotes from the article:

Joshua Key is one of dozens of U.S. soldiers who fled their army to seek refuge in Canada. After an eight-month tour in Iraq, Key said he couldn't face a return trip. When asked whether that's not just part of the job, Key told Canada AM his Iraq tour wasn't exactly what he enlisted for. "Everybody has a false interpretation that battle's supposed to be fought with tanks or between soldier and soldier," Key said, describing his frustration fighting a more amorphous enemy. "It's just like you don't know what who it's going to be from one day to the next. You can't get rid of the whole population."

So, you're not actually philosophically opposed to the War, you're just a coward...is that right? "Uh, Sorry Sir. I'm not goin on that patrol....there's bad guys out there for God's sake! I thought this was supposed to be like Nintendo Duck Hunt?!?"

And from NDP MP Siksay: "We don't want soldiers who check their conscience at the door when they sign up," the NDP MP said.

Who is 'we' Bill? They aren't our soldiers. Speaking of conscience though, what does it say about the conscience of this coward that he would desert his buddies during war? Siksay talks as if this guy has great courage and strong integrity, but really it's the exact opposite.

And finally: "So far, that support has translated into 15,000 signatures on a petition organized by the community-based War Resisters Support Campaign."

15,000 signatures out of 35 million (or so) Canadians? Wow. Those Americans must be shaking in their boots!
 
Althought I don't agree with the "motives" behind the war in iraq, if you sign up in the military, especially the american military, don't be suprised if you have to go see some action. My sympathy towards him would be alot greater if he had been drafted, and then went to Canada, but to voluntarily sign up for the military and then run as soon as you're asked to do your job is ridiculous.
 
genetic debris. The deserters and anyone who supports them. Someone add more Chlorox to the gene pool.
 
S_Baker said:
I understand that this NDP MP wants to allow US deserters to stay in Canada; the term Blow Back comes to mind as it was thrown around for a long time about Afghanistan.   Well I think this could be very disasterous for US-CDN trade and relations.

Unfortunately these deserters seem to have a following in Canada, I would personally like to have a chat with them and remind them of the oath they took.   This oath was taken freely without mental reservation and they better be held to it!
I'm hoping that the Jeremy Hinzman case will set a precedent for the others, long story short the Canadian Immigration and Refugee Board denied his bid for asylum, rejecting his argument that he would face unfair persecution if he was to returned to the US. It's been a while since I looked in to his case but I'm sure he'll be appealling the verdict.

One can only hope that our (Canada's) stance so far will hold true with the numerous other cases as well.

paracowboy said:
genetic debris. The deserters and anyone who supports them. Someone add more Chlorox to the gene pool.
couldn't have summed up my thoughts better.

cheers.
 
paracowboy said:
genetic debris. The deserters and anyone who supports them. Someone add more Chlorox to the gene pool.

We debated this very subject " ad nauseum" not so long ago and this was a popular opinion as far as i can remember  ;D
 
aesop081 said:
We debated this very subject " ad nauseum" not so long ago and this was a popular opinion as far as i can remember   ;D

Well that kind of opinion is to be expected on a military board made of mostly military people. :)  As far as the general public, most of the people I know, this subject isn't even something they know about, and if they do know about it they are indifferent (typical Canadians) or for allowing these things to stay here.
 
Hello  Hello is any body home in Customs ?  How are ppl that have warrants on them getting by our highly touted Border Security.

Some thing is terribly wrong here.  Send them home special delivery! 

I can not for the life of me, figure out why we have to import our problems.  Guess the politicians like the higher quality imported crime over the low domestic grown type.

It is ridiculous that we have all left pieces of our bark in all sorts of crap holes, to come home & be told that even when we are born here we have no rights or say in the way this country is run.

guess thats why the the spelling has changed to Kanada.

Cheers
 
Not to mention that they are taking jobs that Canadian's can do.
Initially my attitude was to bring the cowards back for justice. Now I think a permanent exile is more fitting. They can never return to the US without running the risk of arrest as deserters. I dont want them back as they are a disgrace.
 
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