U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[Spr]

Sort of like all the "anti-war" activists out there...they have no suggested solution.

Funny how they forget that it was a war that won them the right (no privilege) to be an activist.

 

[Jarnhamar]

People need to use some common sense, too, and remember the atmosphere of the site they are on.

 

[Dare]

Dare,

Good come back....again what's your point?

I thought it was self explanitory, but *apparently not*. The point is, Afghanistan is not Vietnam, nor was Afghanistan a war for oil. It was a lie. Just like the Iraq being a war for oil was a lie. The idea that the Iraq war has created a training ground for terrorists where none existed before is also a lie. If people (MdB) want to interject their ridiculous conspiracy theories into a debate about desertion, expect it to be refuted.

 

[Spr]

Just so its clear, I've been a member of the Profession of Arms for 20 years and have been to enough places to see the result of applied violence on other human beings, in no way am I a war monger, but I believe in military force once all diplomatic paths are exhausted...as they were in Iraq (contrary to what anti-war types profess).
To focus on the thread here..deserters....my understanding is one of them had been three and went AWOL while home on leave, the other never even made into theater...just cut and ran at the thought. The guy that was there and didn't return deserves the benefit of  the doubt that he had seen and done all all he could manage, his COA to avoid going back is questionable..but at least he was basing it on experience. Now the other guy..who enlisted for the education benefits then when it meant deploying ran...his actions are wrong on so many levels a thread could be stared to delve into that on its own.
It comes down to duty and loyalty. They made a contractual obligation...they've broke it ..now they should step up and face the consequences for their actions..if they were truly committed to their postion and choice they would let it run through the legal system so that it gets challenged and perhaps their postion will be substantiated. But its easier to hide up here and let the media fight your fight. In  my original post I said it wasn't may place to judge these guys as cowards but the more I think of their behavior the more I want to recant that comment.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The idea that the Iraq war has created a training ground for terrorists where none existed before is also a lie.

I would say it created a sort of training ground. Our forces there DO in fact give them someone to shoot at, to hate, to target.
It's attracting terrorists from other countries.
Our soldiers are learning how to really fuck their shit up.  I'm pretty sure THEY are learning how to hurt us better as well, don't you think?

Just for an off the wall example, if you pit a platoon or company of canadian soldiers, lets say reserves, against a platoon or company size group of these guys who have been fighting (and learning from fighting) the americans for a year +, in an OBUA setting (whatever) who do you think would have the advantage?
I would even guess the regs would get a hell of a bloody nose simply because they have a hell of a lot more "lessons learned" that we do at this point in time.

the Iraq war has created a training ground for terrorists where none existed before is also a lie.

Probably not done on purpose for some evil conspiracy, but Iraq is a HUGE training ground for both sides.

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

"In  my original post I said it wasn't may place to judge these guys as cowards but the more I think of their behavior the more I want to recant that comment."

Again i agree with Spr comments about them being cowards, any guy who deserts there brothers and sisters during time of war or even a small conflict is not a deserter they are a traitor, maybe thats a little harsh but thats the reality. When you sign up you take an oath to do your duty no matter what, whether you believe in it or not. These guys who sign up for educational burrsaries and other such reasons do it because they think they will never have to serve in a war zone, well times are changing and so is the world, gone are the days of just walking around in a uniform looking pretty, when you wear that uniform you better be prepared to serve, no matter at what cost, thats your job!! (Oh and when you desert, you make your regiment, fellow soldiers and country look like a fool, but maybe thats just my belief!)

 

[BKells]

Spr you make fun of activists and claim not to be a war monger (although you truly come across as one), and state that it is a privlege of these activists to be able to protest. With your train of thought and obvoius desire for military force, it makes me wonder, what the hell am I, are we, fighting for?

 

[Spr]

BKells,

Ah the enthusiasm of youth...the reason why the age of conscription is generally 18 and why children soldiers are so fanatical.

I fully understand the vitality of my job and the responsibility it brings, additionally I've seen the effect of the violence we in the profession of arms have been granted domain over. That being said its also our duty to be as proficient and competent....if you're going to be good at something you'll be much more effective if you enjoy it.


If you want let's start a new thread to discuss why professional armed forces are a requirement for the survival of a democratic sovereign state .

This thread's topic is desertion.

 

[aesop081]

If you want let's start a new thread to discuss why professional armed forces are a requirement for the survival of a democratic sovereign state .

I think i would rather enjoy that !

 

[Spr]

aesop081,

I figured you would...good topic for tommorow. Have to go do the Easter Dinner thing.

Spr

 

[Canadian Sig]

BKells,

If you want let's start a new thread to discuss why professional armed forces are a requirement for the survival of a democratic sovereign state .

  I'm definatly in for that one. 

 

[Infanteer]

Cowards or not, it is not up to these folks to decide on the legality of the actions undertaken by the legitimate government of their country - as soldiers, they do not decide what is right and what is wrong.

We've got a good discussion going on about this right now here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28884.0.html

 

[BKells]

Spr,

Ah the cynicism of old age. That's why the retirment age is 65 to help weed out to grumps from the upper echelons of bureaucracies.

If you want to take a low blow at me about my age, at least do some research first.

 

[Canadian Sig]

Spr,

Ah the cynicism of old age. That's why the retirment age is 65 to help weed out to grumps from the upper echelons of bureaucracies.

If you want to take a low blow at me about my age, at least do some research first.

I think your making assuptions because Spr's profile does'nt list his age (just like yours). 

 

[aesop081]

Spr,

Ah the cynicism of old age. That's why the retirment age is 65 to help weed out to grumps from the upper echelons of bureaucracies.

If you want to take a low blow at me about my age, at least do some research first.

There is a 5 second rule for comebacks......that includes modifying your posts to make them more clever !

Maybe try getting some time in before getting smart........ :

 

[Infanteer]

That's why the retirment age is 65 to help weed out to grumps from the upper echelons of bureaucracies.

Experience goes a long way in this line of work - don't single yourself out as a smartass.

 

[aesop081]

Experience goes a long way in this line of work - don't single yourself out as a smartass.

too late  ;D

 

[Spr]

Hey BKells,

I wasn't taking a pers shot at you, or lack of maturity.  My comment was more a general comment on how it's easier to get a teenager indoctrinated into an idealogy...recruiters, before PC and the CF's transformation into an employment equity agency targeted 18-20 year old males for the combat arms, Hitler Youth units in WWII  average age was 15 and theire viciousness in battle is well documented, it would be safe to say that the average age of Suicide Bombers and the most tenacious insurgent is around 19. Take a look at the age of WTO protesters. Why do you think end of the spectrum political  groups target university campusses?

Its a clinical fact that the logic processing function of the human brain doesn't fully develop until around age 20.

It would be interesting to find out what the average age is of the 2000 or so US deserters is. I would bet money most of them are 20+.

WRT your comment about "old age" I totally concur with avoiding the dinosaur effect, basic rule should be if you've been around for more then two iterations of the service weapon its time to go, and I'll hold myself to that. That being said...ever heard the story of the old and young bull on the hill? So the place for us cynical old guys is to focus and curb your youthfull enthusiasm to make you more effective and increase your life expectancy. Some of the best life lessons I've had is from the experience of others.

I may add, in my last job I add the privilege of developing young soldiers...on morning PT the majority finished behind me.

 

[aesop081]

I may add, in my last job I add the privilege of developing young soldiers...on morning PT the majority finished behind me.

I can personaly attest to that  ;D

 

[BKells]

Experience goes a long way in this line of work - don't single yourself out as a smartass.

Our discussions on the Hinzman case and the practicality of war pertain not to either of our lines of work. My rebuttal is a smartass but the initial agressor is a grizzled old war hero.

Take a look at the age of WTO protesters. Why do you think end of the spectrum political groups target university campusses?

I'd be interested to see the studies on the demographics of World Trade Organization protestors, please enlighten me. While I haven't been to Cancun lately(the last WTO meeting..), I did witness the Bush protests here in Ottawa, having the misfortune of living right in the middle of it. I can tell you that I saw the young 'uns skipping school, and I also saw grandmothers protesting bush and missle defense. I saw middle aged people, I saw disabled people, I saw gay people, I saw anarchists, I saw politicians, I saw war-supporters.

I've heard of the Young Liberals. They are a key aspect in forming Liberal policy to keep in touch with the up and comers. I've also heard of the Young Conservatives. I've seen ads on T.V. for these, and our other official parties. What I haven't seen is a widespread recruitment campaign by the Communist Party, the Anarchists, The Hippies, or the other end of the spectrum groups the Facists. I might need you to explain this claim a little more.