U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[Love793]

Judging from your signature that you're not in the CF yet, when you do get in you will learn that a unique bond forms between soldiers. Deserting when the time comes to face the music is one of the absolute worst ways you can betray this trust. It's not just about 'honouring the contract' at that point, it's about ditching your buddies when you need each other the most. That is why soldiers on this board have such a disgusted reaction to the US deserters.

Well put!

 

[MdB]

I beg your pardon, what is it you dont like ? The fact that i call him a peice of sub-human trash ? Fair enough.   You consider what he faces in the states persecution ?   I submit that you consider what other soldiers, soldiers who had the moral fortitude to do their duty, have to face in Iraq.   Not all of them over there like what they do but they are there, they go back   and will go back again if told to because it is what soldiers do.   You are a DEO candidate right ? May i ask for what trade ? How would you react if one of the soldiers under your charge behaved like this ?

I stand by my opinion of this guy , wether you like it or not..if you feel anything else needs to be said on that, you can PM me.

Hey, I'm not saying he's right. I say he should have done his hard time for what he believed and suck it up. Assume what you do.

Yes, I would be really shocked if one or more soldiers under my responsability would ever behave like this. All that trust you have in those guys suddenly breaks away.

Still, I understand he deserves no respect for what he did. He deserves rights because we live in a society based on rights and laws. You can believe what you want, he still has rights. If not, what else is this all about?

And, I applied for Infantry Officer. So it would damn piss me off if any of the soldiers which I'm responsible of would get away with this, with what I believe in most and him the contrary. Like I said, I may not respect him and think shiit of him, would it be reason enough to speak it out? He has right like I have and we have.

Judging from your signature that you're not in the CF yet, when you do get in you will learn that a unique bond forms between soldiers. Deserting when the time comes to face the music is one of the absolute worst ways you can betray this trust. It's not just about 'honouring the contract' at that point, it's about ditching your buddies when you need each other the most. That is why soldiers on this board have such a disgusted reaction to the US deserters.

Thanks to share it with me. Every day, I force myself to be humble and say I'll learn something today. Well, I have and I'm not finished realizing it every day that because of stakes, it may be the most humble and yet frustrating at times of profession. I have a glimse now of your feelings of this whole thing. I will not condemn any soldiers here for thinking what you think.

Sometimes you get to a point where you can't talk your way out of a situation. The person/s are intent on killing you and your only option is to be stronger and kill them first, or, let them kill you. It's a shitty thing i agree, but it's true.

That's why any army should and have the duty of retaining offesive capabality. It's only when you able, and can show, the capacity to kill if needed that you will force an opposing party to respect and table the negociation. If the force is no more than a show, it won't lead anywhere, only to more deads. (Hmm, dissuasion force is still current... hehe)

So you don't believe the CF is in harms way in Afgahnistan.  Either now or when or when 3VP was with the 101st.  

So you believe the media when they tell you it's all about oil.  If that were the case why are oil prices skyrocketing.

I never said the CF weren't in harms way in Afghanistan. Soldiers are dead there. How would I have the right to say that?? I said that the Canadian Government won't put the CF soldiers in harms way needlessly. In Afghanistan, it was needed and it still is. For Irak, it's now a big training ground for all terrorists from all over the Middle East. The American pay a dear price for such a mistake.

As for the whole oil thing. What else would it be? Because Hussein so dangerous to the US? Iran and North Korean, even China is more dangerous than Irak. Terrorists are more dangerous than the Hussein regime to the US. I will turn question the other way around, do you think Bush did all this in an excess of gratitude for the Iraki people?

And I'm none of an world economist expert, but the barrel price going upward IHO because of all of that instability. Economic markets most dislike what can go wrong. And as I heard, the price is also going upward because the US reserve is rather depleted, so the increased demand ask for bigger price.

And exactly how would you fight terrorism without proactive agressive military action, because that is all they can understand.  The successive Liberal governments aided by the CBC have brainwashed the Canadian public into believing that is all the military is good for "peacekeeping".  The first thing you learn when join a combat trade in the army (even the Canadian army), is your primary mission is to KILL the enemy.  If can not accept the fact that is what the primary job of all nations (including Canada) militaries, to DESTROY/KILL the enemies of that nation, then there is no way of convicing you otherwise.

See my other comments up.
 

You need a thicker skin, especially when talking to military types and thier opinions of deserters.  He may be shunned in his community backHe home or have some eggs thrown at him, boo hoo.  That may be what he thinks is persecution, but the majority here will agree with me that doesn't cut it.  Real persecution is what the Jews faced under Hitler, members of Falun Gong and what the Chinese government does to them, people who spoke out against Hussein/The Taliban/Stalin etc.  What he may suffer under his view of "persecution", is nothing compared to what these people suffer(ed).

I'm getting a thinker skin every passing days. This is why I love such discussions, it helps me be better. As I said, I now understand what it can implie talking of deserting with soldiers.

See my other comments on rights for my answer about persecution. It's a low level of persecusion in here and it'll a lot more active down and back in the US, not to mention jail. Jews faced genocide under Hitler, not only persecution. Chinese government is killing its own people as I understand it, jailling anyone who dares opposing the established power and it's a lot more than persecution. Stalin, genocide again, purged anyone saying a wrong word. See my other comments for the rest. I just believe he has the right of conscience as we all have. For the respect, he lost it in your eyes forever. I understand.

 

[Torlyn]

As for the whole oil thing. What else would it be? Because Hussein so dangerous to the US? Iran and North Korean, even China is more dangerous than Irak. Terrorists are more dangerous than the Hussein regime to the US. I will turn question the other way around, do you think Bush did all this in an excess of gratitude for the Iraki people?

Still the oil...  Why is it always the oil???  So, the Americans are better off by having the majority of their military either on alert or in theatre, using up all that oil that the military machine needs, and doing so at $53 dollars a barrel?  Given the cost of this war for them so far, they could squeeze every last drop of oil out of Iraq, keep the $53/bbl for themselves, and it still wouldn't pay for the cost so far.  It is NOT about Oil.

Why did he go to Afghanistan and Iraq?  Has there been one single attack on US soil since?  No, there sure hasn't.  Perhaps GWB isn't so stupid after all.  The US seems to have been fairly well protected since Sept. 11, wouldn't you say?

T

 

[Jarnhamar]

Still, I understand he deserves no respect for what he did. He deserves rights because we live in a society based on rights and laws. You can believe what you want, he still has rights. If not, what else is this all about?

I don't think anyone was suggesting we take away his rights were they?

I think the guy has the right to a fair trial for deserting.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Agreed. March the guilty b*stard in. We'll give 'im a fair trial, then we'll hang 'im.

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[MdB]

I don't think anyone was suggesting we take away his rights were they?

I think the guy has the right to a fair trial for deserting.

Hehe, you take words out of my mouth... look down...

Agreed. March the guilty b*stard in. We'll give 'im a fair trial, then we'll hang 'im.

CHIMO,  Kat

... that's really what I hate (really dislike).

Cheers,

 

[MdB]

Still the oil...   Why is it always the oil???   So, the Americans are better off by having the majority of their military either on alert or in theatre, using up all that oil that the military machine needs, and doing so at $53 dollars a barrel?   Given the cost of this war for them so far, they could squeeze every last drop of oil out of Iraq, keep the $53/bbl for themselves, and it still wouldn't pay for the cost so far.   It is NOT about Oil.

How do you know it's not about oil? It just happens that Irak is the 3rd more important oil producer?

Why did he go to Afghanistan and Iraq?   Has there been one single attack on US soil since?   No, there sure hasn't.   Perhaps GWB isn't so stupid after all.   The US seems to have been fairly well protected since Sept. 11, wouldn't you say?

No attack on US soil? Is that a proof?

Let's remember over a thousand American soldiers are dead by terrorists since the beginning of this 'war' in Irak. Everyday, there's at least 5-6 more deaths...

But that's not to say we shouldn't fight terrorism... Just not give them a turf to train and that's what Irak is right now, unfortunately.

 

[Infanteer]

:boring:

We've done this before, MdB - fortunately more US soldiers (at least all the ones I know and talk to) are more willing to follow orders then to believe Michael Moore's latest screed.   I only hope you can do the same and put loyalty over politics if you make it into the CF.

You'd do best to remember that you're defending a coward who left his mates to hang in the wind when he decided to all of the sudden become a conscientious objector - something most of the soldiers here deeply resent here.   When you put the boots on you'll understand this.

 

[Bill Smy]

I don't agree with this guy's refusal to go, but at least he's got the guts to stand and answer for his decision, not run away to Canada.

And look at how the USN treats him! Persecuted? I think not. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7297855/

Sailor Who Refused To Deploy Faces Court-Martial

KNSD-TVSAN DIEGO 25 March 2005

A Navy sailor opposed to the war in Iraq who refused to board his ship bound for the Persian Gulf will face a special court-martial, the military equivalent of a civilian misdemeanor trial.

The Navy said it has referred charges of absence without leave and missing movement against Petty Officer 3rd Class Pablo Paredes, whose refusal to report as ordered in December has been labeled both an act of courage and one of cowardice.

"I'd rather do a year in a prison in the military than do six months of dirty work for a war I don't believe in -- and not many people believe in -- and get Marines in harm's way," Paredes told NBC 7/39 in December. "It's sad to me that some people don't understand what I'm doing, don?t understand that this fight takes a lot more courage and that I'm fighting for the very people that they're putting in harm's way."

Paredes, a 23-year-old from the New York City borough of the Bronx, faces a maximum of one year in jail, a forfeiture of pay, reduction in rank and a bad-conduct discharge if he's convicted. No date for a court-martial has been set.

Paredes remains on legal hold, assigned to a transient personnel unit at Naval Base San Diego. Jeremy Warren, a civilian attorney who is representing Paredes, said his client is looking forward to defending himself and moving on with his life.

 

[aesop081]

How do you know it's not about oil? It just happens that Irak is the 3rd more important oil producer?

You realy have to start looking at things from a perspective you didnt pick up watching Michel Moore movies. You would think thats since you are educated , you would be able to do that.  Why does it have to be about oil ? is it because there's alot of it in Iraq ? So what....does it look like the US has gained anything by it so far ? Do you honetsly think that the US would have gotten itself involved in a predictable mess which will take years to sort out, over oil ? Give me a break and step out of your left-wing , media driven conspiracy thoeory paranoia.

 

[Canadian Sig]

MdB. Let me say, from the bottom of the food chain, that I hope to never follow an officer who condones the abandonment of comrades in the face of danger. I dont care what contract he had or what promises he made the government, what about his contract and promises with his fellow soldiers. Is my life to be forfiet because the troop who should have been in the trench with me did'nt "feel" like it was right? If you want to lead soldiers MdB you had better re-evaluate your opinions of this coward. Just my 2 cents.  

 

[Spr]

This is my first post so be nice.....

Quick comment on the requirement or not to take down Hussein. In the 1930's appeasement was the first response to Hitler by the Western democracies, we all know how that ended. Is it about oil? So what if it is...our civilization exists because of oil (the components of the PC your using are a product of oil). Neanderthal's fought over fire, because it was required to survive. Was it about containing WMD?  The intel of every Western nation, not just the US, believed Hussein was capable and willing to use WMD..his bluff was called.

WRT this thread. They are deserters, bottom line and should be detained and extradited back to the US for trial...cowards perhaps, but that's not my place to judge. .To mount a TF we need to DAG 3 times more pers then the TO&E requires. Why do so many pers DAG yellow for a PSO? It would be interesting to sees the stats if were sending pers to a Iraq for "war fighting". 

How can you claim CO in a volunteer armed force? During the war a CANFORGEN was released to instruct the the CF Leadership on how to deal with COs, this tells me it was a problem..and we weren't directly engeaged in combat

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hehe, you take words out of my mouth... look down...


Quote from: Kat Stevens on Today at 01:16:08
Agreed. March the guilty b*stard in. We'll give 'im a fair trial, then we'll hang 'im.

CHIMO,  Kat


... that's really what I hate (really dislike).

I hear where your comming from. Theres a lot of guys here I have a lot of as admiration for as professional soldiers. The odd time something will be said I don't really agree with but you gotta take that stuff with a grain of salt here and there.

In the article Bill Smy posted, I don't like the fact that the sailor refused to do his duty BUT he chose to accept the punishment. I have a lot of respect for him and I'd probably sit down and buy him a beer.  In my opinion he's a conscientious objector and not a deserter.

I'm sure I said it somewhere in this post before. I would rather someone object to going to war right now here in north american, than have a change of heart when he or she is covering my back in a firefight.

 

[Dare]

Let's remember over a thousand American soldiers are dead by terrorists since the beginning of this 'war' in Irak. Everyday, there's at least 5-6 more deaths...

But that's not to say we shouldn't fight terrorism... Just not give them a turf to train and that's what Irak is right now, unfortunately.

And that is what the media painted Afghanistan as before they went to Iraq. Every arguement against Iraq was used in Afghanistan as well. Afghanistan was supposed to be another Vietnam. Islamic terrorists have more than enough "turfs to train" in. Chechnya, Philippines, Western China, Pakistan, Sudan, Aceh, Lebanon, Palestinian territories, and so on.

 

[Spr]

So what's your point?

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

And that is what the media painted Afghanistan as before they went to Iraq. Every arguement against Iraq was used in Afghanistan as well. Afghanistan was supposed to be another Vietnam. Islamic terrorists have more than enough "turfs to train" in. Chechnya, Philippines, Western China, Pakistan, Sudan, Aceh, Lebanon, Palestinian territories, and so on.

I agree with Spr, elaborate on what you are saying, what does this have to do with desertion?

 

[CH1]

Personally I think the 2 desserters should be returned to the US as they are facing criminal charges. If one of ours was facing the same charges here, you can bet they would be escorted north to the border, quicker than you can say CO.

As for "peacekeeping & friendly fire" what's friendly or neighbourly about bullets & bombs. As stated in previous posts the average CDN, doesn't know the difference between bullets, bombs or post holes. I wish the masters would cut the fleece, and tell Mr. J.Q. Public, the truth. You younger soldiers are in COMBAT zones! Not on vacation.

 

[Dare]

I agree with Spr, elaborate on what you are saying, what does this have to do with desertion?

It has about as much to do with desertion as the post I was replying to (not much).

 

[Spr]

Dare,

Good come back....again what's your point?

 

[aesop081]

Dare,

Good come back....again what's your point?

He has none.