U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[canadianblue]

I think thats pretty typical of the left to make a few distortions in order to make our neighbour look like the worst nation in the world. Who would we prefer to have as a superpower, China, I'm kindof wondering what nation Dogboy would prefer to have military supremacy and economic supremacy. As far as I can tell were lucky to have the US in that position, and I don't mind them trying to be the worlds policeman as the UN seems to be a failure in world affairs.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

OK to save time Ill just start from after WW2
*snip*

Oh God, where to start with this claptrap?  I had thought to stay away, but this is exactly the sort of nause spouted by the loony-lefties during my time as an undergrad.  One by one:

1948. Marines in China to Protect the Embassy and evacuate citizens when Shanghai fell to the communist.

And how does this serve as an example of US hegemony?  There have been dozens of similar interventions conducted by dozens of countries - including Canada.

1950-53. Korea

  And what was the Canadian Brigade doing there?  Picking flowers?  Ask S. Korea what it thinks about US participation in this UN-authorized action...

1950-63. USA helps fund French war with North Vietnam and has advisor's on the ground

  Advisors?  To whom?  The French?  Source, please.

53-79. CIA and MI-5 help put the the Shah in power in Iran after the government threatened to nationalize the oil holdings.

  The Shah was already in power.  The PM was overthrown in a coup.  There is still no positive evidence that I've seen (admittedly I've been away from this for awhile) that the West sponsored the coup.

54. USA funded a Right wing Military Coup  in Guatemala

  Again, the evidence is generally from the various left-wing sources.  Perhaps true...after shipment of Soviet arms to the Guatemalan government, something usually forgotten by the conspiracy theorists.

58. 8,000 in Lebanon

  And?  Some context, please.  The deployment of US Marines to Beirut was in response to a request by the Lebanese government, after some rather frightening events in Iraq and the coup in Baghdad.

59.US Marines in Haiti to Advise "Papa Doc's" gov.

  Got a non-political source for this?  2nd Marines ran a series of exercises in the Caribbean in 1959 in response to Castro's victory in Cuba...so?

60.CIA sponsors a Military Junta takeover in Ecuador

  Source?

62. CIA backs Military Coup in Brazil

  Source?

64.  CIA backs Military Coup in Zaire

  A unproven allegation, as is CIA involvement with Patrice Lumumba's murder.  The CIA was involved in the Katanga business, for other reasons.

64-75 Gulf of Tonken incident starts heavy US involvement in Vietnam

  And there was involvement before then, too.  What's your point?  That the US was dragged into an unpopular (and perhaps unwinnable) war by a series of bad political decisions based on a flawed political theory?  Yeah - tell us something we don't know.

65. US Intervened in Dominican Republic 20,000 us troops on the ground

  Some context - again - is in order.  This was after the killing of Trujilo - the DR's dictator...and after a military coup overthrew his elected successor.  Forgot that, did you?

65. CIA backs Military Coup in in Greece

  Source?  Context?  Evidence?  Backs how?

66. CIA backs dearth squads in El Salvador

  Yup, I'm sure they were.  Probably trained them too.  Evil CIA... >  :

70. US invades Cambodia

  As part of an armed conflict with an identifiable enemy.  I would have done it too...

71. CIA backs Military Coup in Bolivia

  "Backs"?  How?  Source?  Evidence?  Reasoning?

72. US gov. funds and backs Military Coup in Uruguay

  Again, source?  The coup had more to do with an ineffectual government response to the Tupamaros terrorist group than any US intervention/interests.

81. USAF plane shot down 2 Libyan jets

  If memory serves, this involved 2 x Libyan SU-22s.  They engaged 2 x VF-41 F-14As with AA-2 missiles over international waters and were promptly shot down.  Self defence, pure and simple.  Get your facts together before you make assertions.

82 US  support of Coup in Guatemala

  Source, evidence?  Yet another "spies everywhere" accusation...  In fact, the coup was organized by junior officers, who installed Gen Montt, who reigned in the death squads and expanded political freedom in the cities...

83.US invades Grenada over 7,000 troops on the ground

  In direct response to Cuban intervention and an attempted coup against the government.  One of the things the Americans did was rescue the Governor General.  You can still see "thank you" murals in Georgetown...I know, I've been there.

86. US attacks drug Refineries in Bolivia they are back in full production in 6 months

Good on 'em!!

88. USS Vincennes invaded Iranian waters and shot down Iran air flight #665 killing 290 civ.

  "Invaded"?  Good lord.  You do know that this was an accident, don't you?  Do you  remember the context of US/Iranian relations at the time?  The activities by Iranian patrol boats in the Gulf, etc..  Again, context.

89. 600+ advisers in Colombia, Bolivia , and Peru

... And?  You know that Canada has deployed advisors to countries too, don't you?  Just not these particular ones...  If I recall, we're currently doing something with Bolivia...  Hmmmm....

89. Gen. Noriega finaley lost US support and was Captured.

...by the US!

90.the US NED (National Endowment for Democracy )  funds more then $2 mill. to try to prevent socialist gov. from being elected. after the socialist won a 6 month destabilization campaign forced them out.

  What government??

91. Desert storm 1 starts up

  And?  If I remember correctly, this was in response to the invasion of a soverign country by a brutal dictator.  Or did I miss something.  I don't suppose you remember how many Canadians were involved in this conflict or the roles we performed?

92. US troops in Somalia 30,000 on the ground

  At the request of the UN, by the way.  Also - by the way - Canada deployed troops here too!

94. US invades Haiti to restore the rightfully elected gov.(for a change)

  So, you're selective in your interventions...?

96. US admits to providing training to Rwandan soldiers who invaded Zaire(tho some witnesses clam seeing US men)

  Admits?  When?  How?  "US men"?  Context?  Sources?  Evidence?

2002. US supported the overthrow of the elected gov. in Venezuela . popular uprising returned it to power.

  Supported how?  Guns?  Funding?  SF?  This would be the same government spending millions of dollars on Russian arms and supporting the terrorists in Columbia, right?

You need to do more reading beyond Blackflag.org and rabble.ca...

To everyone else:  yes, I was bored and I couldn't let such a slanted diatribe go by unmolested...  Back to deserter slamming...  ;D

Jockeying now...

TR

 

[Infanteer]

That the US was dragged into an unpopular (and perhaps unwinnable) war by a series of bad political decisions based on a flawed political theory?   Yeah - tell us something we don't know.

Actually, judging by the condition of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia since the end of the Vietnam War, I'd say that perhaps there is a bit of truth to the Domino Theory.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

True enough, but I was referring more to the theory of monolithic communism (ie: Russians everywhere in control of everything) than the domino theory (although I don't place much stock in the latter as a communist revolutionary geopolitical concept)...

 

[Infanteer]

Oh, Monolith theory - ok.  Mixed up with the now defunct IR theories.... 

 

[Dare]

OK to save time Ill just start from after WW2
1948. Marines in China to Protect the Embassy and evacuate citizens when Shanghai fell to the communist
1950-53. Korea
1950-63. USA helps fund French war with North Vietnam and has advisor's on the ground
53-79. CIA and MI-5 help put the the Shah in power in Iran after the government threatened to nationalize the oil holdings
54. USA funded a Right wing Military Coup  in Guatemala
58. 8,000 in Lebanon
59.US Marines in Haiti to Advise "Papa Doc's" gov.
60.CIA sponsors a Military Junta takeover in Ecuador
62. CIA backs Military Coup in Brazil
64.  CIA backs Military Coup in Zaire
64-75 Gulf of Tonken incident starts heavy US involvement in Vietnam
65. US Intervened in Dominican Republic 20,000 us troops on the ground
65. CIA backs Military Coup in in Greece
66. CIA backs dearth squads in El Salvador
70. US invades Cambodia
71. CIA backs Military Coup in Bolivia
72. US gov. funds and backs Military Coup in Uruguay
81. USAF plane shot down 2 Libyan jets
82 US  support of Coup in Guatemala
83.US invades Grenada over 7,000 troops on the ground
86. US attacks drug Refineries in Bolivia they are back in full production in 6 months
88. USS Vincennes invaded Iranian waters and shot down Iran air flight #665 killing 290 civ.
89. 600+ advisers in Colombia, Bolivia , and Peru
89. Gen. Noriega finaley lost US support and was Captured.
he was  supported since 66 and was a know drug smuggler since 72
90.the US NED (National Endowment for Democracy )  funds more then $2 mill. to try to prevent socialist gov. from being elected. after the socialist won a 6 month destabilization campaign forced them out.
91. Desert storm 1 starts up
92. US troops in Somalia 30,000 on the ground
94. US invades Haiti to restore the rightfully elected gov.(for a change)
96. US admits to providing training to Rwandan soldiers who invaded Zaire(tho some witnesses clam seeing US men)
2002. US supported the overthrow of the elected gov. in Venezuela . popular uprising returned it to power.

The real question is, even if all stated were true, where is your list of what the Russians and Chinese were doing in the world to require these actions?

 

[larry Strong]

http://danshistory.com/vietnam.shtml#start

Actually I wonder if "Dogboy" might not be Carolyn Parrish

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The online, Dogboy, name certainly describes her. :

 

[Dogboy]

I put the list down as a way to show that the US has a history of getting in to other country's biz.
some one ask me to show that they do, I sow it then I get flack for proving my point.

also I never said China, or the USSR are free of blame. nor Canada for that matter.
it was simply a way to show that if On simply oped a few history books one can see the US is always doing something with its Army and so if you don't want to go to was its a bad idea to join them (maybe the peace corp. or something would have bin better)
I was merle proving a point

also the list was from Ad-buster
why is it when you bring up facts like that you immediately called a Left wing nut but when you skew it to the right its called fair and balanced on Fox?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Why is it when called out on something you resort to swerving the topic?

 

[Dare]

I put the list down as a way to show that the US has a history of getting in to other country's biz.
some one ask me to show that they do, I sow it then I get flack for proving my point.

also I never said China, or the USSR are free of blame. nor Canada for that matter.
it was simply a way to show that if On simply oped a few history books one can see the US is always doing something with its Army and so if you don't want to go to was its a bad idea to join them (maybe the peace corp. or something would have bin better)
I was merle proving a point

also the list was from Ad-buster
why is it when you bring up facts like that you immediately called a Left wing nut but when you skew it to the right its called fair and balanced on Fox?

I've noticed that on many forums, learn to expect it and accept it. There are always some who are a bit too zealous on their need to define, and box people in. I would say your list is fairly accurate, actually, and is missing a whole lot more. I also agree that the US has been at a state of war for some time (just as Canada has). I do not think most of those things listed are "bad things", so only a characterization of those events as such would I be objecting to. If that was not intended, then my response was not meant in any other way but literal.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I put the list down as a way to show that the US has a history of getting in to other country's biz.
some one ask me to show that they do, I sow it then I get flack for proving my point.

also I never said China, or the USSR are free of blame. nor Canada for that matter.
it was simply a way to show that if On simply oped a few history books one can see the US is always doing something with its Army and so if you don't want to go to was its a bad idea to join them (maybe the peace corp. or something would have bin better)
I was merle proving a point

also the list was from Ad-buster
why is it when you bring up facts like that you immediately called a Left wing nut but when you skew it to the right its called fair and balanced on Fox?

Ad-buster, eh?    

Adbusters offers incisive philosophical articles as well as activist commentary from around the world addressing issues ranging from genetically modified foods to media concentration. In addition, our annual social marketing campaigns like Buy Nothing Day and TV Turnoff Week have made us an important activist networking group

"Activist commentary" :

And no one (least of all me) has called Fox "fair and balanced".

Again, the problem with politically-charged lists like yours is that they make accusations without any real foundation or background.   It's as bad as the extreme right-wing nuts and their "black helicopters"...   I happen to agree with Dare that some of what is listed is true (and there were some missing things - Chile, for example), but there was/is no context whatsoever in what you posted.   All you attempted to do was provide "proof" of how evil Americans are...

As Dare points out, you can make a similar list for virtually every major power in the world, including Canada.   The only point you succeeded in "proving" is that you're a firm member of the legion of "experts" who are easily lead astray by "facts" when they suit a preconceived notion -   in this case, knee-jerk US-bashing.

I'm rounds expended on this topic...

TR

Edit to correct typo.

 

[48Highlander]

I put the list down as a way to show that the US has a history of getting in to other country's biz.
some one ask me to show that they do, I sow it then I get flack for proving my point.

Ok, great, you proved that the US gets itself involved in "other country's biz".   Congratulations, we're all proud of you.   Now were you trying to make a point, or just talking to hear yourself speak?

also I never said China, or the USSR are free of blame. nor Canada for that matter.
it was simply a way to show that if On simply oped a few history books one can see the US is always doing something with its Army and so if you don't want to go to was its a bad idea to join them (maybe the peace corp. or something would have bin better)
I was merle proving a point

Actualy, you showed no such thing since 90% of your list doesn't involve military action.   What you DID prove is that you subscribe to a lot of conspiracy theories about the CIA.   If you're trying to prove that "the US is always doing something with its Army" then stick to listing ways in which their military has been used, and stay away from unproven alegations about CIA coups and funding of foreign groups.

also the list was from Ad-buster
why is it when you bring up facts like that you immediately called a Left wing nut but when you skew it to the right its called fair and balanced on Fox?

When you bring up unproven allegations about the big bad CIA, you're labeled a left-wing nut.   Just like whackos claiming that the KGB is corrupting our children would be labeled right wing nuts.   You need to re-examine your stance and perhaps move a bit more towards the center.   Either that or at the very least start researching your "facts" a little more carefuly.

 

[Bill Smy]

The Toronto Sun
Fri, June 24, 2005

DESERTER HERO STATUS A STRETCH

By PETER WORTHINGTON

A Sun colleague Thane Burnett wrote an interesting column on American deserters being regarded as "heroes" when they flee to Canada. In fact, the word "hero" appears five times in the column and deserters are (twice) compared with blacks who fled to Canada to escape slavery.

First of all, comparing U.S. military deserters to escaping slavery is not only wrong, it's ludicrous and verges on the obscene, and gives undeserved respectability to slavery. That isn't Thane's fault -- it's the people he's quoting, and reveals a mindset that is dogmatic and immune to reason.

While I, and most Canadians, have no hostility to deserters who seek sanctuary here, most of us do not regard deserters of any form as "heroes," or heroic. Especially not today, when the U.S. has a volunteer military, and everyone who wears a uniform does so by choice. Those who enlist and decide when they are slated to go to Iraq that they're really "conscientious objectors" (or that their role in Iraq consisted of "killing children and civilians") are rationalizing and justifying their decision to run away.

If most Canadians oppose the war in Iraq, I also think most don't admire desertion. Even during the Vietnam War, there was a qualitative difference in the minds of Canadians about draft dodgers who sought sanctuary here, and U.S. army deserters who fled here. As a people, we are uneasy with desertion, be it from America's volunteer army or our own.

Of course there are those among us who welcome and exploit deserters -- use them for ideological, anti-military or anti-American purposes. Deserters here make speeches attacking America and are lionized by those who'd resent them if they still wore their country's uniform.

Thane's column was mostly about Darrel Anderson, 22, whom he called one of the "new wave of poster boys for the U.S. armed forces." I'm unsure what he meant by that, but he notes Anderson "won" a purple Heart in Iraq, before refusing to go back to Iraq and instead fled with his family to Canada, to be welcomed as a "hero." Another thing Canadians -- and especially our military -- find odd about the U.S. military, if they think about it, is "winning" a medal if you are wounded.

The Canadian army prefers its soldiers not to be wounded, and doesn't encourage the attitude that being wounded deserves a medal. American propaganda insists Purple Heart "winners" are somehow heroic.

Anderson's wound came from a roadside bomb when he was with an artillery unit attached to the 1st Armoured Division. Sen. John Kerry exploited three Purple Hearts he "won" in Vietnam into justifying why he felt he deserved to be U.S. president, with no examination of the severity of the wounds that won him the medals.

Unlike fellow deserter Jeremy Hinzman, whose bid to remain in Canada was rejected by the Immigration and Refugee Board, Anderson hopes he'll have better luck. If you look up Hinzman or Anderson on the Internet (google.ca) you'll find considerable support and favourable comment from "war resisters." But these aren't necessarily the Canadian people.

Hinzman, who fled to Canada after the U.S. army twice rejected his request for Conscientious Objector (CO) status and his battalion was ordered back to Iraq, argued that Canada is legally obligated to give him refugee status because he'd be persecuted if deported to the US for having refused to participate in an illegal war. As it turned out, the Immigration and Refugee Board rejected his application -- as it probably will Darrel Anderson's.

It'd be interesting to know how Sun readers feel about deserters: Should they be welcomed as heroes, sent back to the U.S., or simply ignored?

 

[ArmyRick]

Imagine if you will

-A fire fighter backing out the moment he is about to rescue one of your relatives?
-A police constable letting you get beat beaten to a pulp by street thugs because he has changed his mind?
-A doctor deciding part way through heart surgery that he would rather not do it?

When you make a commitment to something where people lives depend on you doing your job, THAN BLOODY WELL MAN UP and MEET YOUR OBLIGATIONS!!!

Deserters deserve no recognition !!!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

...except from the American customs agent as he places him under arrest.

 

[EW]

Always considered myself a bit left-wing, for a career soldier that is - I don't plan on voting NDP anytime soon, but even I can't substantiate these guys even being looked at for refugee status.   I mean come on, they willingly signed up as professional soldiers, at least one of them was bankrolling points for his Army GI bill, and they were collecting a decent paycheque.   Than when the balloon goes up they decide that thanks for everything, but no thanks, I don't want to go.   Let my buddies do the nasty part.

The U.S. is a democratic fair country.   They should go back, speak their piece, and if (very likely) they are guilty they do their time in a military prison, and then at the end of their sentence they go free and their debt to society is paid.  

I still can't believe there are Canadians who somehow equate this to Vietnam.   Forget the theatre of war.   Vietnam involved draftees, Iraq (to date) are all volunteer soldiers.   These guys seem to be of at least normal intelligence and education, and knew that there was a chance.

Even if the US had gone with the draft after 9/11, I could to some degree understand; they were attacked at home by an enemy, the country has to have the resources to guarantee safety to their civilian populace.

Now draftee's for Iraq, that is totally different than Afghanistan - but I digress - these guys were not draftees.   Send them back, after our democratic process has run its course, and our courts have spoken.

 

[Canadian Sig]

You know when I was growing up ( many years ago ) and saying how bad I wanted to be a soldier my father would tell me to remember that " if you take the Queen's shilling you do the Queen's work". That work may suck, it may be scary or distastefull but damnit it's your job.

end rant

 

[wdewitt]

They should be escorted to the USA border and turn over to the USA authority's. :crybaby:
When they finish his contract he then could apply for Canadian Status.

 

[TheNomad]

Actually I see no problem with deserters from the US being allowed to stay in Canada.

Is it against Canadian law to desert from the US?

Are these people a threat to the people of Canada?

I am no fan of deserters as my avitar might suggest, but why should Canada deport people to the US just because the US thinks they should.  Desertion is a specifically military offence and has no equivalent in civilian law.  If these people were wanted for civilian offences such as murder, or other "true crimes" then it would be appropriate to send them back.

Question:  How often does the US deport either Canadians or its own citizens to face charges in Canada?