U.S. Military Deserters in Canada Megathread

[MdB]

I'm sure that his lawyers will appeal this as far as they can, wasting our tax dollars and our cout's time the whole way.

Come on, let it go now. If Canada is one of the 8 richest country in the world, that's because there's a whole bunch of American south of our border swallowing up like 85% of all our exports!!

As for Hinzmann, that's worth a try. The way he did that is questionable, I give it. He volunteered after all. Still, I believe this war is unlegitimate (for once, I agree with my Fed. Govt. ;D) and that he should have had the right to oppose it as conscious objector. Now, he's here and escaped it. I do think now he'll have to go south again and face the music, BECAUSE he volunteered and didn't respect his engagement. He just has to darn suck his hard time up and come here again after. It'll be legally afterall. I think any intelligent people can help Canada, yet intelligent people do make judgment errors, but that's won't crucify them.

Cheers,

 

[aesop081]

Come on, let it go now. If Canada is one of the 8 richest country in the world, that's because there's a whole bunch of American south of our border swallowing up like 85% of all our exports!!

As for Hinzmann, that's worth a try. The way he did that is questionable, I give it. He volunteered after all. Still, I believe this war is unlegitimate (for once, I agree with my Fed. Govt. ;D) and that he should have had the right to oppose it as conscious objector. Now, he's here and escaped it. I do think now he'll have to go south again and face the music, BECAUSE he volunteered and didn't respect his engagement. He just has to darn suck his hard time up and come here again after. It'll be legally afterall. I think any intelligent people can help Canada, yet intelligent people do make judgment errors, but that's won't crucify them.

Cheers,

He was refused CO status because he did not meet the stablishe criteria.  He joined for personal gain ( which is ok) but did not want to hold up his end of the bargain when the time came to earn his pay.  His argument that he earned his pay during regular working hours in the states is rubbish.  The purpose of the military is to enforce the will of the government by the use of military force, not to sit around and push a broom in troop stores.  He was part of the 82nd airborne for pete's sake !!  The military doesn't give you a gun just to look cool.  He became "anti-war" after he joined up.....fine...he should have refused to obey the order to deploy and face the music in his own country. A deserter is a deserter is a deserter. It seems to me that he is not willing to take responsability for HIS own actions and i find that particularly despicable.

 

[karl28]

Well at least he is on his way home .   Hopefully this will show others not to come here .   I   don't need or want that kind of people coming to Canada .      

 

[Kat Stevens]

He just has to darn suck his hard time up and come here again after. It'll be legally afterall. I think any intelligent people can help Canada, yet intelligent people do make judgment errors, but that's won't crucify them.

Cheers,
Actually, he'll have a criminal record, and therefore ineligible to enter Canada...Win/Win for us....

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Korus]

These U.S. soldiers have the support of the Canadian population, said Caroline Egan with the War Resisters Support Campaign.

They don't have my support. MY support is reserved for our Brothers in Arms who are in Iraq right now, putting their necks in harms way doing their duty as soldiers. May they make it home to their families safe and sound. 

 

[Infanteer]

Still, I believe this war is unlegitimate (for once, I agree with my Fed. Govt. ;D) and that he should have had the right to oppose it as conscious objector.

What you believe is irrelevant.  As a soldier, you have no right to pick and choose which orders to obey - if you don't like that, turn in your kit.  If Canada had sent soldiers to Iraq, you would be obligated to go and if you chose to skip out, you would be sharing a cell with Hinzeman.

 

[MdB]

What you believe is irrelevant.   As a soldier, you have no right to pick and choose which orders to obey - if you don't like that, turn in your kit.   If Canada had sent soldiers to Iraq, you would be obligated to go and if you chose to skip out, you would be sharing a cell with Hinzeman.

Am I missing something? Why does conscious objector status exists then?

As for going for war, I believe Canada would ponder the choice very cautiously, they don't have any chin anyway (or gut), and I would feel safe in that case. This is not American army, this is Canadian, no problem with that.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Conscientious objector implies a conscience.  He didn't stand his ground and defend his position,, he deserted, and left his brothers to twist in the breeze... Despicable, in my book...

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[Infanteer]

Am I missing something? Why does conscious objector status exists then?

You can't pick and choose where you want to apply your "conscious".   For Pete's sake, the guy was in the 82nd Airborne - the grunt and sing (like any other sharp end) about killing humans on a daily basis.

 

[aesop081]

Am I missing something? Why does conscious objector status exists then?

As for going for war, I believe Canada would ponder the choice very cautiously, they don't have any chin anyway (or gut), and I would feel safe in that case. This is not American army, this is Canadian, no problem with that.

CO status exists for legitimate cases where some one would, under aby circumstance, refuse to kill another human being, including self-defence.  This peice of shit did not qualify for CO status because he indicated that in certain instances he would kill. Legitimate cases of CO are promptly disscharged from the military.  He is a deserter and that all there is to it and he should be treated accordingly. The fact that he has been allowed to be here for this long and the fact that even thought he was denied refugee status , he will continue to be in this country for some time.  canadian society does not need an indivudual lacking any sort of moral fiber such as this clown.  What if Canada started giving out college money, would he join the CF because canada never goes to war anywhere ? What about the day canada does, what would he do then ?

He is nothing more than sub-human trash...if he wants to redeem himself he should go back to the states and face the music.......or he could take up my offer to take him to Iraq myslef ( on my dime) and close with and destroy ( which is what US citizens payed him to do).

 

[The_Falcon]

Am I missing something? Why does conscious objector status exists then?

As for going for war, I believe Canada would ponder the choice very cautiously, they don't have any chin anyway (or gut), and I would feel safe in that case. This is not American army, this is Canadian, no problem with that.

I believe S_Baker explained some time ago in a related thread, that the CO status really only applies to people who where drafted, along with certain highly specific cases of those who volunteer.   The American Army saw right through this puke, and his CO claim.   The American military machine has never put itself out to be a kind and friendly "peacekeeping" force.   He is also a classic example of what is wrong with our refugee system.   The fact he was not punted the moment he claimed refugee status is revolting.   You can believe his rhetoric about facing "persecution" (in addition to prosecution), but the "persecution" he would face would amount to being shunned, and having eggs thrown at his house, unlike some other countries where he would be put to death.

Also what are implying about the Canadian military?  That we would simply allow him to leave without facing the music, because we are weak?  Please clarify your comments, I would really love to hear your answer.

 

[Torlyn]

With all of this, I do have to offer a Kudos to the people at CIC.  Looks like they got one right.  What does worry me is the cost of all this, and the length of time his appeal may take.  I wonder if a response like this from CIC (punting him out) will do anything for CDN-US relations?

T

 

[Korus]

You can't pick and choose where you want to apply your "conscious".  For Pete's sake, the guy was in the 82nd Airborne - the grunt and sing (like any other sharp end) about killing humans on a daily basis.

I think that just may be the biggest hole in his story. Did he join up as Infantry, or was he some other support trade that was attached to the 82nd infantry and just so happened to have been on 18 combat jumps in Afghanistan. [ref: http://www.jeremyhinzman.net/background.html ].

Either he was lying, and fully accepted that he might have to kill, then was afraid of the risks (In all reality, what sane person wouldn't be?) and chose to run away (When he couldn't conquer the fear as a soldier must), "or" he was an idiot, pure and simple.

 

[Cpl.Banks]

Hopefully we'll be rid of this guy and he can go face the music down south. Hopefully this will help our relations with the US slightly, after the missile defence sheild incident the US has been pretty distant...But thats my humble opinion
UBIQUE!!!!!

 

[Island Ryhno]

The real losers unfortunately in all this will ultimately be his wife and son, they will now be without a father and husband for some undetermined time. He should have thought of that before bolting also. What a sad, sad web this kid is weaving.

 

[MdB]

CO status exists for legitimate cases where some one would, under aby circumstance, refuse to kill another human being, including self-defence.   This peice of crap did not qualify for CO status because he indicated that in certain instances he would kill. Legitimate cases of CO are promptly disscharged from the military.   He is a deserter and that all there is to it and he should be treated accordingly. The fact that he has been allowed to be here for this long and the fact that even thought he was denied refugee status , he will continue to be in this country for some time.   canadian society does not need an indivudual lacking any sort of moral fiber such as this clown.   What if Canada started giving out college money, would he join the CF because canada never goes to war anywhere ? What about the day canada does, what would he do then ?

Thanks, it's clearer for me now.

Also what are implying about the Canadian military?  That we would simply allow him to leave without facing the music, because we are weak?  Please clarify your comments, I would really love to hear your answer.

As for going for war, I believe Canada would ponder the choice very cautiously, they don't have any chin anyway (or gut), and I would feel safe in that case. This is not American army, this is Canadian, no problem with that.

The only thing it means is that Canada would only join a war the Government feels legitimate. As we saw, it refused to participate in the last conflict in Irak. I don't really feel that the Federal Government has the political leadership to assume such a conflict right now. The last political leaders that were PMs were without vision, not proactive, rather reactive to any poll or opportunity they can lay the hand on, I cannot imagine right now a Government that would assume such responsability in the face of Canadians, unless it has a big support from them. So, all I say is that I trust the Government not to put CF uselessly in harms way. After all, Canada went to Afghanistan and not Irak and I believe it's the right choice.

This is to say the CF are not the American Armed Forces in that it is not an Armed Forces focused on aggression. I do believe the CF can defend themselves and be so aggressive as needed (which I support), but it will never be to 'secure' some region in order to ensure our economic interests are preserved. Rather, as I understand it, Canada want to make a peacer world with other nations by fighting terrorism, deploying to stabilize regions and populations, use our diplomatic influence to lessen poverty in the world. (Well, that last one I'm not so sure...) As for economic fight, it will rather use diplomatic and world economic organizations, not unlike the US.

I hope this is clearer.

He is nothing more than sub-human trash...if he wants to redeem himself he should go back to the states and face the music.......or he could take up my offer to take him to Iraq myslef ( on my dime) and close with and destroy ( which is what US citizens payed him to do).

You can believe his rhetoric about facing "persecution" (in addition to prosecution), but the "persecution" he would face would amount to being shunned, and having eggs thrown at his house, unlike some other countries where he would be put to death.

Well, what is it here if it's not persecution?? I mean, instead of only saying he was wrong and should have the gut at least to make some jail time because he has not honored the contract he signed, you call him a sub-human, a piece of crap, whatever... I really don't like it and it should be moderated for the best of Army.ca website.

 

[aesop081]

Well, what is it here if it's not persecution?? I mean, instead of only saying he was wrong and should have the gut at least to make some jail time because he has not honored the contract he signed, you call him a sub-human, a piece of crap, whatever... I really don't like it and it should be moderated for the best of Army.ca website.

I beg your pardon, what is it you dont like ? The fact that i call him a peice of sub-human trash ? Fair enough.  You consider what he faces in the states persecution ?  I submit that you consider what other soldiers, soldiers who had the moral fortitude to do their duty, have to face in Iraq.  Not all of them over there like what they do but they are there, they go back  and will go back again if told to because it is what soldiers do.  You are a DEO candidate right ? May i ask for what trade ? How would you react if one of the soldiers under your charge behaved like this ?

I stand by my opinion of this guy , wether you like it or not..if you feel anything else needs to be said on that, you can PM me.

 

[The_Falcon]

The only thing it means is that Canada would only join a war the Government feels legitimate. As we saw, it refused to participate in the last conflict in Irak. I don't really feel that the Federal Government has the political leadership to assume such a conflict right now. The last political leaders that were PMs were without vision, not proactive, rather reactive to any poll or opportunity they can lay the hand on, I cannot imagine right now a Government that would assume such responsability in the face of Canadians, unless it has a big support from them. So, all I say is that I trust the Government not to put CF uselessly in harms way. After all, Canada went to Afghanistan and not Irak and I believe it's the right choice.

So you don't believe the CF is in harms way in Afgahnistan.  Either now or when or when 3VP was with the 101st.  

This is to say the CF are not the American Armed Forces in that it is not an Armed Forces focused on aggression. I do believe the CF can defend themselves and be so aggressive as needed (which I support), but it will never be to 'secure' some region in order to ensure our economic interests are preserved.

So you believe the media when they tell you it's all about oil.  If that were the case why are oil prices skyrocketing.

Rather, as I understand it, Canada want to make a peacer world with other nations by fighting terrorism, deploying to stabilize regions and populations, use our diplomatic influence to lessen poverty in the world. (Well, that last one I'm not so sure...) As for economic fight, it will rather use diplomatic and world economic organizations, not unlike the US.

And exactly how would you fight terrorism without proactive agressive military action, because that is all they can understand.  The successive Liberal governments aided by the CBC have brainwashed the Canadian public into believing that is all the military is good for "peacekeeping".  The first thing you learn when join a combat trade in the army (even the Canadian army), is your primary mission is to KILL the enemy.  If can not accept the fact that is what the primary job of all nations (including Canada) militaries, to DESTROY/KILL the enemies of that nation, then there is no way of convicing you otherwise.
 

Well, what is it here if it's not persecution?? I mean, instead of only saying he was wrong and should have the gut at least to make some jail time because he has not honored the contract he signed, you call him a sub-human, a piece of crap, whatever... I really don't like it and it should be moderated for the best of Army.ca website.

You need a thicker skin, especially when talking to military types and thier opinions of deserters.  He may be shunned in his community backHe home or have some eggs thrown at him, boo hoo.  That may be what he thinks is persecution, but the majority here will agree with me that doesn't cut it.  Real persecution is what the Jews faced under Hitler, members of Falun Gong and what the Chinese government does to them, people who spoke out against Hussein/The Taliban/Stalin etc.  What he may suffer under his view of "persecution", is nothing compared to what these people suffer(ed).

 

[Jarnhamar]

Rather, as I understand it, Canada want to make a peacer world with other nations by fighting terrorism, deploying to stabilize regions and populations, use our diplomatic influence to lessen poverty in the world. (Well, that last one I'm not so sure...) As for economic fight, it will rather use diplomatic and world economic organizations, not unlike the US.

And exactly how would you fight terrorism without proactive agressive military action

The problem about making a "peacer" world is that the people we are facing do not want peace. They do not want to just be left alone. They do not just want us out of their country, away from them. (I admit some may but i doubt this is the driving purpose behind their actions considering they kill their own people)

They don't want to be tollerant of other races or religions.
They want to kill.
They want to drive cars packed full of explosives into markets crowded with men women children and senior citizens and murder them.

Sometimes you get to a point where you can't talk your way out of a situation. The person/s are intent on killing you and your only option is to be stronger and kill them first, or, let them kill you. It's a shitty thing i agree, but it's true.

The US is so evil, their so bad. Their going to prosicute this guy.  How do you think a deserter in Iraq would fair? (If you were a terrorist there or iraq soldier pre gulf war)
Now i remind you in iraq you and your whole family can be killed for working for the americans trying to feed your family currently.

This guy is going to do some jail time for deserting? Maybe have some prank phone calls and be called some bad names?
Forgive me if i'm none too sympathetic for his "Noble and rightious plight"

 

[Korus]

Well, what is it here if it's not persecution?? I mean, instead of only saying he was wrong and should have the gut at least to make some jail time because he has not honored the contract he signed, you call him a sub-human, a piece of crap, whatever... I really don't like it and it should be moderated for the best of Army.ca website.

Judging from your signature that you're not in the CF yet, when you do get in you will learn that a unique bond forms between soldiers. Deserting when the time comes to face the music is one of the absolute worst ways you can betray this trust. It's not just about 'honouring the contract' at that point, it's about ditching your buddies when you need each other the most. That is why soldiers on this board have such a disgusted reaction to the US deserters.