Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada

[Blue Max]

Initially it was not clear that man could go to the moon and return unharmed, or even cancer treatment which to this day is not an exact science and yet if you where ill you would sign off on 25% chance of it working.

You have to start somewhere. The alternative being you trusting the UN or a_majoor's â Å“pixie dustâ ? to protect you from some psychopaths wet dream. Either of which have equal chance of working (no disrespect intended a_majoor);D

B M

 

[tomahawk6]

You cannot expect the senior Canadian officer to authorize an intercept without consulting Ottawa. How much time do you have for an answer, not much. The purpose is to intercept the warhead while it is well up in the atmosphere so waiting on the PM to make a decision would be to lose valuable time - time that is measured in minutes.

There is increasing talk on US talk shows about how anti-american Canada has become. The timing of this decision comes on the heels of Bush's visit to Europe. I doubt that Mr Martin can expect an invite to the Texas ranch. The bigger issue is the future of NORAD I believe. You cannot draw a line and saw we will only be involved in stopping aircraft from entering north american air space but missile defense is out of bounds because we dont want to militarize space. Space is already militarized considering all the military satellites now in orbit. The other issue is that if you dont want your country attacked by an enemy then you may follow policies that will not antoganize potential enemies thus reducing your effectiveness as an ally.

Increasingly I see socialism as the new threat to US interests. You see the leftist newspapers siding with terrorists against the US. Case in point. A US citizen was arrested for plotting to kill Bush. In the US newspapers he was referred as a "valdictorian from a Virginia high school". The reality is the high school was a saudi funded madrassa known for its radical teaching. The prisoners in Gitmo are another. They were caught on the field of battle not scooped up out of some market. Yet leftists in the US want to extend the same rights to them as US citizen's enjoy. Believe it or not some american's think our bill of rights apply to the whole world. Were the US civil war era military commisions were in place Gitmo wouldnt be needed - these terrorists would simply have been executed. But we are more enlightened today.

 

[Mad Max]

Hi, Troops! To be honest, I don't really care whether-right now- this system works, or has the potential of working at some time in the future. What I care about is our PM pandering-AGAIN,AND OF COURSE- to the Anti-American near sighted Socialist Ostriches who make up a significant plurality in this country. And not just in the chattering classes, but your neighbours and mine. Some guys, even on a site like this, just can't seem to understand the absolute requirement to make, keep, and maintain trusted friendships and/or alliances with our natural allies! We are not a neutral nation in fact, although the Trudeauites in Parliament who obviously have no knowledge of or interest in the REAL World would have us believe we are. Participation militarily, financially, and diplomatically in BMD ought to be an obvious requirement of a trusted ally doing its part to defend, or potentially defend, North America. But forget that. Don't even think about the defending part. Think about who we are attempting to impress with this blinkered, stupid decision. Is it the Chinese? The North Koreans? The rest of our NATO allies? The people of the Continent of Africa? Who? This decision, aimed at playing to the voting population in Quebec and Ontario, reinforces, yet again, Canada's role as the do-nothing, essentially useless, harmless, and helpless "friend" to everyone- and therefore no one. And don't even TALK about the supposed "big boost" in Defence spending in the budget! Probably smoke and mirrors again- remember Perrin Beatty...?

 

[Kirkhill]

Thirtstyson:

Kamloops to Ottawa is a heck of a commute for a 2Lt.

 

[Kirkhill]

And Mad Max - this decision isn't even targeted as broadly as you suggest.  Most Canadians wait to see which way the talking heads lead them.

This decision is targeted firmly at the "Activists" within the Liberal party and the NDP.  One knocks on doors to elect Liberals, the other knocks on doors to defeat Conservatives.  These people are the lifeblood of any Party machine.  For a party to get elected it needs these activists. That is why George Bush got elected and John Kerry didn't.  President Bush had millions of volunteer activists working for him.  John Kerry and the Democrats had to buy theirs.

This is the real underlying reason for this Anti-Americanism - it plays well to the Left Wing Activists in Canada and without them Paul's minority will shrink.  It already shrank because a good chunk of them sat out the last federal election because they were pissed off at him over Chretien and the Sponsorship.  If he doesn't get the women and youth on side, or at least keep them on side, his next showing won't be as good as the last one.

In Canada we don't yet seem to have spawned much in the way of Right Wing Activists in the way the US has.  All our Activists seem to be Social Activists constantly rebelling against the Straw Man of the Conservative Establishment.  Meanwhile the Liberals are the Establishment and conservative minded voters are desirous of maintaining the Establishment.  Liberals win......

 

[Mad Max]

For sure! I was half expecting (and secretly wishing for) some Canadian Communist from Toronto to attempt a cunning attack! It's good to know there are folks here who aren't afraid to throw out the bath water to save the baby. Come on, Commies, let's see what you've got!

 

[Infantryman]

One of the underlying themes on this post is whether BMD works or not.  Not signing on and investing in BMD on the basis that it does not work is equivalent to stopping cancer research because we don't have a working cure!

 

[dutchie]

BMD just took one step away from 'theory' and one step closer to 'reality'......

U.S. shoots down missile in test near Hawaii
Last Updated Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:36:44 EST
CBC News
WASHINGTON - The American military has successfully shot down a missile in a test of its missile defence system conducted off Hawaii.

"We had a successful hit-to-kill intercept," said Richard Lehner, a spokesperson for the U.S. Missile Defense Agency.

This week's test marked the fifth success in a series of six similar tests conducted over oceans.

Land-based ballistic missile defence tests have also been conducted, with five out of eight tests considered a success.

In two of the ground-based tests, interceptors failed to launch from their silos.


FROM FEB. 14, 2005: 2nd U.S. missile defence test failure

By 2007, the U.S. military wants to have 30 SM-3 interceptors based on its ships to shoot down short-range and medium-range ballistic weapons before they can reach North American targets.

The military wants to be prepared should North Korea or another aggressor launch missiles tipped with nuclear, chemical or biological warheads.

The Pentagon is asking for a 20-per-cent boost in funding for the ballistic missile defence program, from $7.7 billion US this year to more than $9 billion US next year.


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/02/25/missile-test050225.html

 

[dutchie]

Quote from thirstyson:

"The reason I'm glad we're saying no thanks is because it doesn't work and it isn't likely to work in the near future."

So I guess in his world, 'the near future' only extends about 5 minutes.....

 

[Franko]

Quote from thirstyson:

"The reason I'm glad we're saying no thanks is because it doesn't work and it isn't likely to work in the near future."

So I guess in his world, 'the near future' only extends about 5 minutes.....

ROTFLMAO    ;D

Well.....so much for .02 cents worth.

Regards

 

[buzgo]

What could we really contribute to the BMD programme anyway? I saw on the news that the Americans have budgeted SEVENTY BILLION dollars so far. Wasn't our entire Federal budget only 200 billion or so?

So do they want us to sign up to give the system some credibility or what?

 

[Mad Max]

They want us to sign on because WE live in North America too! And because we are co-members of NORAD, which will effectively be nothing more than a paper tiger once BMD goes forward- and it IS going forward. And because the Yanks don't think that we should be getting a free defence ride. And because OUR AIRSPACE is the potential beaten zone for their warhead interceptors! Get the picture?

 

[buzgo]

Okay, sure, but what can we contribute?

 

[Thirstyson]

Thirtstyson:

Kamloops to Ottawa is a heck of a commute for a 2Lt.

That's a cheap shot... a bit confusing when they ask you that right after you're birthdate.

Besides Kirkhill, we had a good discussion about this in the older BMD thread.

I don't see the need in repeating all that.

 

[Kirkhill]

You're right. It was a cheap shot. For that I apologize.

I see you have updated your profile.

Cheap shot or not, I still disagree with your position.   This project is doable.   I base that on the fact that it has been done.

Others have supplied the evidence.

 

[FastEddy]

That's a cheap shot... a bit confusing when they ask you that right after you're birthdate.



I don't see the need in repeating all that.

If you plan to make the Military a career, you better grow a thicker skin, I think you're going to need it.

Thank God your not involved in Cancer Research.

When the U.S. BMD is perfected and up and running, there's going to be a lot of people with pie on their face.

 

[Thirstyson]

If you plan to make the Military a career, you better grow a thicker skin, I think you're going to need it.

Thank God your not involved in Cancer Research.

Stick to the topic at hand... what place does rank have in this argument? It's a 70B$ system that doesn't work but is being deployed anyways.

 

[buzgo]

Maybe this latest test was 'fixed' like some were in the past. For instance, the trajectory was known and the target missile had a homing beacon in it:

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s478712.htm#transcript

Narration: The military researchers have conducted tests were there is a single balloon decoy. Three out of five were a success, but Slakey says they aren't realistic.

Professor Francis Slakey: A global positioning system is placed on the warhead so that it follows the predetermined trajectory. The size and the shape of the decoy is known ahead of time and programmed into the interceptor. The infrared signature of the decoy and the warhead is known ahead of time and programmed into the interceptor and a homing beacon is put on the warhead and that information is transmitted back to the interceptor. And then finally the whole thing is happening at one third the speed that's needed for real combat situation. So does it work? Well if the enemy where to tell us when they are firing where they're firing how they're firing, what they're putting inside the missile, the nature of their decoys and for good measure they put a homing beacon in. then the system has a 60% chance of success.â ?

there is more:

http://www.shutdown-sizewell.org.uk/is_missile_defence_a_shot_in_the.htm
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20040413102346702

 

[P-Free]

Rather than questioning if we will ever need this system, I think we should go ahead with it so it is there incase it is needed. The fact is there are weapons out there that can reach Canada and attack our cities, and our people if they fall into the wrong hands.

I'd rather having something and not need it than nothing and be in a world of hurt.

 

[Thirstyson]

The problem with the "I rather have one than not" argument is that there are better BMD systems than this one. This system is far too expensive and doesn't provides a false sense of security, read any of the links to the system tests, look at the cost of this system and then argue that it's a good idea.

And as for curing cancer FastEddy... that's research that is not misguided and continued to due its own perpetual motion.