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Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada

  • Thread starter Thread starter the patriot
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Ahhh the predictable Mr Dithers strikes again! He doesn't make decisions based on what's good for the country in the long run.  He makes decisions based on short term political expediency. This shows where his true loyalty lies.  It's not with Canada but with the liberal party and their never ending quest to remain in power. This man's short-sightedness is truly disturbing.
 
This shows where his true loyalty lies.  It's not with Canada but with the liberal party and their never ending quest to remain in power. This man's short-sightedness is truly disturbing.

No Liberal fan I, but I think a good chunk of Liberals would argue his commitment to the Party.  From where I sit his fixation was on getting the job his Dad was denied - now that he has got it he is acting much like the proverbial dog that caught the car.  He doesn't know what to do with it.....
 
Your right, I think that was the gist of the article in the Economist.
 
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-683033.php

This isnt a good decision. By participating Canada gets a benefit without cost. Now if there is an attack but it is determined that the warhead will impact in Canada what will NORAD do, not fire on the inbound missile ? Looks more like a political decision rather than military.
 
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-683033.php

I posted this originally in the military news section, so I posted the link here. This isnt a good decision by Mr Martin, but Canada will still be protected by the system  irregardless.
 
Canada has declined the offer to be apart of the US missle defence plan.  As a nation protecting their boarders, the US extend their airspace 200 miles past.  It is not that bad doing that over either ocean, but now the US is forced to protect their northern aiespace too.  So that would mean that they could fire at a target 200 miles in to Canada.

What a great idea!

Food for thought.
 
Much as I hate to say this Tomahawk - you can't afford NOT to defend us.  Unfortunately that puts us in a particularly nice position when it comes to debating sovereignty and deciding what and who enters our territory.
 
Although this has been touched on already, it is always good to see a view from a different light.

 
We try to keep the number of threads on the same subject down.  You can express your views there.
 
I wonder what would happen if the US shut down NORAD ? This way Canada maintains complete control of her air space. NORAD's mission could be transferred to the Space Command. The threat to US air space is primarily from ICBM/IRBM's which can be handled by interceptors.
 
tomahawk6: You're right: this was a purely political decision, apparently based on domestic opinion concerns, particularly in Quebec (crucial to winning a Federal election ) It isn't completely clear what the Govt's actual position is: the minority Martin govt has made noises out of both sides of its face about missile defence. Unfortunately, they are caught between two icebergs: a very strong suspicion and dislike of missile defence amongst much of the the Canadian public on the one hand, and what must be considerable US political pressure (both overt and otherwise) on the other. The present govt is cautiously trying to mend fences with the US (gradual increase to Afghanistan committent 2005-2006, offer to support Iraqi training, increase to defence budget, etc,) but it can only go so far on a contentious issue like missile defence. Our govt probably also notes that there does not currently seem to be unanimity in the US (even in the defence community IIRC) about the feasibility and value of the missile defence program. Further complicating the situation is the ever-present US ability to cause severe economic dislocation in Canada (far more than we could cause in return...) as a means of "punishing" us if we do not support the US on this or other issues. This may not seem realistic or likely to you, but perception is reality and it worries many of us, including the govt. So, any decision on this will not be easy.

As far as I can make out, the success of the concept in no way depends on direct Canadian participation: all systems will be based in the US and funded unilaterally by your government. Our support would have been mainly moral and political: I would be surprised to hear that the US was planning to rely on us for anything critical. Thus, I doubt that the future of missile defence is actually at risk, and as we do not intend to leave NORAD, in the long run I don't see much changing in terms of uor contribution to the aerospace defence of North America.

Cheers
 
pbi said:
tomahawk6: You're right: this was a purely political decision, apparently based on domestic opinion concerns, particularly in Quebec (crucial to winning a Federal election ) It isn't completely clear what the Govt's actual
position is.


Once again your quote has hit the nail right in the head.

But it raises an uneasy feeling, just how many refusals and how much sniping the Americans will take before they BITE BACK.

I've usually found, you can piss people off only up to a certain point, then watchout. Do you think this applies to Governments ?.






.

 
tomahawk6 said:
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-683033.php

Looks more like a political decision rather than military.

You hit the nail on the head on this one.

IIRC....we are the ONLY country on the Al-quaida hit list that hasn't been struck yet.

I'd hate to say it but perhapse we need a good wake up call....to get the granola eaters to realise what kind of a world it really is out there. I watched CTV News Net and everyone they interviewed said it was a good call by the PM....

Give your head a shake people!

Regards
 
The yes/no/maybe flipflop and waiting till the 11th hour to make a decision is not making us any friends or earning us any respect. Stalling till you can make what you consider the best choice politically doesn't come across too well.
 
Just like BMD only adresses one aspect of defense; the political fallout won't be felt through NORAD. We PO the Americans on the defense front, they do an asymmetrical attack on softwood lumber, beef, travel visas, tax harmonization...you get the idea.
 
Just to make it even more interesting, Paul Martin apparently said he still wants to be consulted should the BMD system have to launch. What part of "no" doesn't he understand (especially since he is the one who said it)?

Perhaps fortunately, the US Ambassador has already set him straight, and I believe he used the word sovereignty (as in "we are losing our"). Canadians better get used to watching our influence and standing flowing away even faster. We may claim to have "Global responsibility", but it is obvious the Liberals do not believe a word of it, since they make no actual hard provisions to carry out any of these wish lists. If China or the Sudan wishes to ignore us, what tools do we have left to compel them?

The waffling on BMD is symptomatic of greater problems with Canada's political class, and the general education and experience of the Canadian people. Once you go on tour or otherwise experience the darker byways of the greater world; then it becomes quite difficult to understand how the Canadian people can be so complacent. Magic pixie dust only works in the Globe and Mail, not in the real world.
 
IIRC....we are the ONLY country on the Al-quaida hit list that hasn't been struck yet.

So Al-quaeda has ICBMs now?

This BMD system DOES NOT WORK! It also costs about the same as our entire defense budget. It is only a feel good system for the US and it's certainly alright to say no to it when you know the facts than to say yes just to appease your friend.
 
If it was a political decision to say no, then it would almost have to be a political decision to say yes. They've tested this system, and it doesn't work.
What's the likelihood of anyone even managing to get their hands on a working ICBM, let alone program it and fire it?
 
Good article, sums up everything we've been saying.

Fri, February 25, 2005



Little time for dithering ally

By Greg WESTON

IF AVERAGE Americans had been following Paul Martin's stand on U.S. missile defence, they would surely be relieved by yesterday's announcement that Canada will not be part of it. An Armageddon warhead incoming at 4 km per second is no time to be sharing command and control of North American air defence with a dithering prime minister.

But one thing worse than an ally who can't make decisions is an ally who makes them for all the wrong reasons.

Martin's announcement had nothing to do with missiles or defence or even the U.S. It was a pre-emptive strike to head off an embarrassing uprising with his own Liberal ranks.

Ten days from now, Liberals from across the country are gathering here in Ottawa for their first policy convention since the last election, and likely the only such Grit conflab before the next call to the polls.

The hottest item on the agenda was Canada's participation in U.S. missile defence, an issue that was guaranteed to garner a mass thumbs-down from the Grit grassroots.

At the same time, public opinion polls in the Liberal heartland of Quebec do not favour Canada's joining George Bush's missile defence program.

If Martin were a stronger leader, he might have stared down his opponents within his party and elsewhere.

Instead, the PM has opted for doing what seems popular, not what is right, justifying his actions with excuses that are pure bunk.

"Ballistic missile defence is not where we will concentrate our efforts," Martin told reporters after a cabinet meeting yesterday.

Instead, the prime minister said, Canada would focus "both alone and with our neighbours on (other) defence priorities" such as re-equipping the military and beefing up border security.

All of which might make good sense, except for one small point.

So far, the Americans haven't asked Canada to contribute "efforts" or anything else to the missile defence program -- not money, not technology, not manpower, not missile sites -- nothing that would detract from the Martin government's new-found military priorities.

Canada's only commitment to missile defence so far was an exchange of diplomatic letters with the U.S. just after Martin's election last year.

The two countries agreed to amend their bilateral NORAD agreement under which Canada and the U.S. have shared security of North American air defence for over 40 years. The change extended the functions of NORAD to the new U.S. ballistic missile defence command.

Yesterday, less than 60 seconds after Martin said Canada "will not take part in the proposed ballistic missile system," he confirmed Canada will honour the NORAD deal.

"Canada remains steadfast in its support of NORAD which is essential to continental security and our national sovereignty.

"And that's why we agreed last summer to enhance our longstanding commitment to track missiles through NORAD. We stand by that commitment."

So much gobbledygook from one prime minister on an issue so politically important to the Bush administration it is guaranteed not to sit well in Washington.

But nothing has suffered more collateral damage in the past 24 hours than Paul Martin's own credibility.

For the past two years, the prime minister has been arguing that whatever physical role Canada might -- or might not -- decide to play in missile defence, it is better to be "at the table" with the Americans than locked out of the process altogether.

"I think our sovereignty depends on our being at the table when discussions are taking place about the defence of North America," Martin said not 18 months ago.

"I don't think that for us to live in some silo away from that would make any sense."

And finally, in another interview: "My position is that I don't want the Americans coming up here defending us."

The feeling today is probably mutual.




 
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