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Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society

tannerthehammer said:
I think you can show respect without being forced to participate in worshipping or paying any sort of hommage to whatever religion or deity there is...Like for instance when I was in highschool there was a kid who was a Jehovah's witness and I thought it was pretty disrespectful that he would not stand for the national anthem.  Now that I am older and I understand that it is not his belief I believe I should respect HIS right to not have to engage in (a form of worship) standing for the national anthem as painful as that is for me to even say.

ok my inflamatory 2 cents. 1 Standing up for the flag to honour those buried beneath it and all it stands for in this great nation is not a religious act, standing up for your flag does not violate anyone's religious beliefs, including JW's, I have a great many friends whoe are JW's and they proudly stand up and remove thier ball caps even when the flag flys and anthem plays. Any Canadian has the right not to stand for my anthem, but they can do it on the other side of the border.
 
ArtyNewbie said:
ok my inflamatory 2 cents. 1 Standing up for the flag to honour those buried beneath it and all it stands for in this great nation is not a religious act, standing up for your flag does not violate anyone's religious beliefs, including JW's, I have a great many friends whoe are JW's and they proudly stand up and remove thier ball caps even when the flag flys and anthem plays. Any Canadian has the right not to stand for my anthem, but they can do it on the other side of the border.

National Anthem: A song sung at ceremonies to honor a national flag. The Bible clearly shows this custom to be a form of idolatry, so Jehovah's Witnesses respectfully abstain from participation. (Dan 3:1-30) http://jehovah.to/

Straight off the JW's United website

 
ArtyNewbie said:
ok my inflamatory 2 cents. 1 Standing up for the flag to honour those buried beneath it and all it stands for in this great nation is not a religious act, standing up for your flag does not violate anyone's religious beliefs, including JW's, I have a great many friends whoe are JW's and they proudly stand up and remove thier ball caps even when the flag flys and anthem plays. Any Canadian has the right not to stand for my anthem, but they can do it on the other side of the border.


Nationalism

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to salute the flag of any nation, recite the pledge of allegiance, stand for or sing the national anthem, run for public office, vote, or serve in the armed forces.


http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beliefs/their_beliefs.htm

also;

It is not that we do not love the country where we live that stops us from standing or singing the national anthem it is because we do not see ourselves as belonging to any one nation.  We are all descendants of one man, Adam and thus we view humans as belonging to one family.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/national-anthem-2.htm

that is why they don't

dileas

tess


 
Being that we are questioning religion in regards to the CF

the publication by the CF (in assistance and in agreement with each denomination)
should be used as opposed to any other site as the accuracy of information of this
publication has been verified and is the standard being used today by chaplains.


CF publication - Religions in Canada
can be found at  http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/religions/engraph/religions_toc_e.asp



http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/religions/engraph/religions19_e.asp
Jehovah’s Witnesses will not swear allegiance to any government or any flag, believing that they owe allegiance to God only. Consequently, they are usually excluded or exempt from military service, depending on national law. In some countries, they are prosecuted for refusing compulsory military service.
 
I have to admit I thought it bizarre, when working with the USMC, to be invited to 'take a knee' at the end of an O Group to pray for victory. I always preferred to have faith in my avowedly heathen troops. Onward Christian Soldiers indeed....



Are U.S. Troops Being Force-Fed Christianity?
Watchdog Group Alleges that Improper Evangelizing Is Occurring Within the Ranks
By JANE LAMPMAN
Sept. 6, 2007 —


At Speicher base in Iraq, U.S. Army Spec. Jeremy Hall got permission from a chaplain in August to post fliers announcing a meeting for atheists and other nonbelievers. When the group gathered, Hall alleges, his Army major supervisor disrupted the meeting and threatened to retaliate against him, including blocking his reenlistment in the Army.

Months earlier, Hall charges, he had been publicly berated by a staff sergeant for not agreeing to join in a Thanksgiving Day prayer.

On Sept. 17, the soldier and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) filed suit against Army Maj. Freddy Welborn and U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, charging violations of Hall's constitutional rights, including being forced to submit to a religious test to qualify as a soldier.

The MRFF plans more lawsuits in coming weeks, says Michael "Mikey" Weinstein, who founded the military watchdog group in 2005. The aim is "to show there is a pattern and practice of constitutionally impermissible promotions of religious beliefs within the Department of Defense."

For Weinstein -- a former Air Force judge advocate and assistant counsel in the Reagan White House -- more is involved than isolated cases of discrimination. He charges that several incidents in recent years -- and more than 5,000 complaints his group has received from active-duty and retired military personnel -- point to a growing willingness inside the military to support a particular brand of Christianity and to permit improper evangelizing in the ranks. More than 95 percent of those complaints come from other Christians, he says.

Others agree on the need for the watchdog group, but question the conspiratorial view and some of its tactics. They say dealing with religious issues is a complex matter, and the military is trying to address them appropriately.

At the Defense Department, spokeswoman Cynthia Smith says the DOD doesn't comment on litigation, but "places a high value on the rights of members of the Armed Forces to observe the tenets of their respective religions."

Since the Revolutionary War, the armed services have tried to ensure that soldiers can practice their faiths, and that chaplains serve not only those of their own sect but all who may need pastoral care. The services have also sought to adhere to the First Amendment prohibition of any government "establishment of religion."

In the 1990s, for instance, the Air Force's Little Blue Book of core values highlighted religious tolerance, emphasizing that military professionals "must not take it upon themselves to change or coercively influence the religious views of subordinates."

Weinstein insists, however, that there are improper actions at high levels that not only infringe on soldiers' rights but, at a very dangerous time, also send the wrong message to people in the Middle East that those in the U.S. military see themselves engaged in Christian warfare.

For example, he says, Lt. Gen. William Boykin, who gave speeches at churches while in uniform that disparaged Islam and defined the war on terror in fundamentalist, "end times" terms, was not fired but promoted. (Speaking of a Muslim warlord he had pursued, Lt. Gen. Boykin said, "I knew my God was a real God and his was an idol." And our enemies "will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus.")

"There's an eschatologically obsessed version of Christianity that ... is trying to make American foreign and domestic policy conterminous with their biblical worldview," Weinstein charges. And "there's improper pressure within the military command structure to make members join them."

The most serious allegations from the field cannot be corroborated for this article. A few will be raised in the lawsuits, but some incidents have been documented.

Perhaps the most visible situation -- and the one that set Weinstein off on his mission -- involved the evangelizing of cadets on the part of some faculty and staff at the Air Force Academy (AFA) in Colorado Springs, Colo., which came to light in 2004. Congress held hearings, DOD conducted an investigation, and the head of the academy acknowledged significant problems. Weinstein's cadet son experienced the pressures as a Jew.

Col. David Antoon (ret.), another alumnus of the AFA and now a 747 commercial pilot, says his heart was broken when he took his son, Ryan, to an orientation at the academy in the spring of 2004. An overt evangelistic approach during part of the orientation so upset them, he says, that they decided his son would reject the treasured appointment and instead go to Ohio State University.

"My son had dreamed of doing what I had done, but it was no longer the institution I went to," Colonel Antoon says, his voice cracking with emotion.

The Air Force set about reaffirming basic principles in religion guidelines, as a basis for widespread training, but a pushback by Evangelicals later led to Congress setting them aside until hearings could be held. The hearings have not taken place.

In 2006, MRFF learned of a video produced by Christian Embassy, a group that conducts Bible studies at the Pentagon and seeks to evangelize within the armed services. Aimed at fundraising for the group, the video was improperly taped in the Pentagon and involved endorsements by Army and Air Force generals in uniform.

MRFF's public alert spurred a DOD investigation. In a report critical of the senior officers, the Inspector General said they gave the appearance of speaking for the military. One general defended his role by saying "Christian Embassy had become a quasi-federal entity."

The report noted that Maj. Gen. Paul Sutton participated while he served as chief of the U.S. Office of Defense Cooperation in Turkey, a largely Muslim nation whose military takes pride in protecting the country's secular status. After a Turkish newspaper wrote about the video as promoting a "fundamentalist sect," General Sutton was called in and questioned by members of the Turkish General Staff.

"They had to give him a lesson in the separation of church and state," Weinstein says. "Imagine the propaganda bonanza! And how this upset Muslims."

The DOD report on the video recommended "appropriate corrective action" be taken against the officers. According to Army spokesman Paul Boyce, "The Army has not yet completed any planned actions associated with the Christian Embassy review."

MRFF claims a victory in the case of the evangelical group Operation Stand Up. Earlier this year, OSU was preparing to send "freedom packages" to soldiers in Iraq as part of an Army program. Along with socks and snacks, the packages included proselytizing materials in English and Arabic, and the apocalyptic video game, "Left Behind: Eternal Forces." In it, Christians carry on warfare against people of other faiths.

After the plans were made public, the Pentagon announced in August that the materials would not be mailed. OSU did not respond to a request for comment.

Weinstein -- an intense, voluble attorney who prizes blunt, no-holds-barred language -- has struck more than one nerve with his bird-dogging. He says numerous threats have been made on his life. Last week, the front window of his house was shot out for the second time. After the lawsuit was filed, talk of "fragging" (killing) Specialist Hall surfaced on some military blogs. The Army is investigating.

Others sympathetic to Weinstein's concerns say some tactics undermine his efforts, and they question aims.

"He's uncovered some very disturbing stuff that shouldn't be going on in the armed forces," says Marc Stern, a religious liberty expert at American Jewish Congress. "But it's important that you not go too far."

Stern disagrees, for instance, with Weinstein's stance on the Air Force guidelines, such as preventing military supervisors from ever speaking of religion to people under their command.

"He did a disservice to his and our cause by taking a position beyond what the law requires, and in fact may intrude on people's rights," Stern adds.

Several conservative Christian ministries publicly proclaim an evangelistic aim "to transform the nations of the world through the militaries of the world," and they are active at U.S. military installations in many countries. (See www.militaryministry.org or militarymissionsnetwork.org.)

MRFF sees that as a harbinger of a volunteer military falling under the sway of increasing numbers of Christian soldiers. Others see a military leadership, with the exception of a few generals here or there, well aware of its constitutional responsibilities, but challenged by the demands of training on these issues in a military of millions. A group such as MRFF can provide a crucial service, they say, if it is willing to work with the military.

Right now, Weinstein is counting on a set of lawsuits to bring serious issues to the fore. The question is whether those suits will go beyond individual cases of discrimination to prove an unconstitutional pattern within the armed forces.



www.csmonitor.com | Copyright © 2007 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved.

Copyright © 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures
 
"..The Crusaders used the Christian cross as their symbol. They believed that the symbol of the cross made them invincible against the armies of the Muslims....'
 
I had observed many times in our FOB, generic troops praying before a DFAC meal, making the sign of the cross, etc. This became the norm, and not one of us Aussies ever did that (that I know of). No one ever said a thing. If someone wants to make peace with his God, before a mission (possibly his last meal), good on him!

BTW, I am far from being 'churchy'.

Our Padre would make his way from BIAP via Irish weekly to talk to the Lads. He was always well recieved, but had a small turnout for his service. We loved our Padre!

In the US FOB MWR facilities there was an abundance of Soldier's Bibles free, and awlays advertisments for which type of religion was having its service timings in numerous locations. Some doors had signs ' Don't enter - we're praying'.

No one was being forced into anything, perhaps being spiritul is somehow the US military 'culture', as this was common, and I beleive it just might be.

Personally I don't find anything wrong with it, and if thats what it takes to get young men  (or older ones) through battle, and to get strength from, so be it.

I was once told 'the Lord hates a coward'.


My 2 cents,

Wes
 
From a guy I know who's recently worked closely with the US Army. I've got nothing against troops being allowed to follow their religious beliefs, but when it starts to become 'mandatory' for career reasons, it's time to call a halt.

"Nothing new here, religious bullies have been plying their way through the US chain of command for some years and have large followings among the poor underclass within the volunteer system. It's a factor in promotion not unlike the former influence of masonic orders elsewhere. Even pilots talk about Jesus as their wing-man. I've seen it all from prayers at meals to ' Orders Prayers ' as part of Battle Procedure. Kind of like admitting things will go sideways but if you believe in heaven the final moments won't burn as bad. And of course the old stand-by, ' it's Gods will '. ( I prefer 'shit happens') But the way to curb any fantasy belief is through education which is why our CF needs to ensure that it's troops are smart enough to call BS when superstition creeps ahead of reason."
 
Its NOT mandatory. These types of stories are common from the anti-christian MSM who are incidentally also anti-military. The US military as an institution represents traditional values. For the leftists to succede in their makeover of our society they must first destroy all institutions that represent traditional values - Boy Scouts, manger scenes at Christmas, traditional marriage vs gay marriage, abortion on demand - essentially multiculturalism. Socialism and its big brother communism have never been friendly towards religion.
 
Piper said:
I said pardon?

Is there something wrong with multi-culturalism? Or the idea that spirituality is an individual thing and not something to be forced on the collective populace? I'm a true-blue conservative in most senses of the word, but if your 'traditional values' mean marching backwards through time then don't count me in.

Evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity is JUST as dangerous and JUST as evil as fundamentalist Islam. What the US does is it's own business, but the idea (and until concrete proof is provided to back up the article, it remains merely an idea) of the world's strongest military being inundated with fundamentalist religious values is somewhat frightening, do you not agree? Will we one day see an USRGC (US Revolutionary Guards Corps) t rival the IRGC, the military wing of Iranian fundamentalist Islam.

I suggest you watch the movie 'Inherit the Wind'. It may give you pause when you decide to pontificate on the importence of 'traditonal' Christian values.  

Whats wrong with christian values ? A society must have a strong value system as a foundation. I find it offensive that you would compare christians to the IRG. You havent read about any christian suicide bombers have you ? I certainly hope you dont represent Canadian values .
 
I dont view legalization of drugs or gay marriage as a step forward. The concept of personal responsibility seems to have gone by the boards as well. I am not a big bible thumper but my wife and I attend church. We even insisted that our kids go as well. We instilled in them a strong values system that they have used as guidelines in life. When you are in a dangerous profession believing in something higher than self is a comfort. In the military we believe in honesty,integrity,duty,honor and country. While they seem old fashioned they are not. No one likes a liar or someone that steals. I never tolerated someone lying to me. In this profession you have to be able to believe what subordinates and superiors tell you.- if you cant then the system breaks down. You may feel that people that believe in religion are inadequate but those people have my respect. I have no respect for those that dont believe in anything but themselves.
 
Sorry Piper,

I've gotta go with the older kids on this one.

If you look into how the USA was founded, you will find
Christian values like tolerance are intrinsic to the makeup
of American culture and how their history has evolved.

Consider what this holiday weekend is about.
A new life free from persecution from the established
authorities. Sounds pretty Christian to me.

I have to agree that NO ONE should be forced to do
anything that affects their spiritual life - but one should respect
people who have one. Can you trace the evolution of your values?

I think you need to study some history and understand how
religious communities have had positive influences on our lives.





 
 
tomahawk6 said:
I dont view legalization of drugs or gay marriage as a step forward.
Ya, God forbid.

We even insisted that our kids go as well.
Why not let them choose for themselves when they are old enough?

I have no respect for those that dont believe in anything but themselves.
You should have respect for people, period.  If someone chooses to believe in only themselves that is their choice.
 
My parents had a rule which I adopted with my own kids - as long as you live under my roof you follow my rules. Attending church was one of those. As adults they are free to do their own thing, but guess what they go to church as well and take their kids with them. I have three sons [26,28 and 30] who have served in Iraq/Afghanistan and I think faith has helped them get through the tough times that go hand in glove with service in a combat zone. Anyway we all make our choices in life. I am satisfied with mine as I hope you are in yours.
 
Last I knew the U.S was founded on separation of "Church and State".  That religion no matter what the denominations, is forbidden in the government.  The government does not support religious churches, schools and even to the point of law suits to prohibit religious displays on government/state property during the holiday season.

I believe one should practice their own set of beliefs without pressing them on others.

emma
 
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