Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
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the 48th regulator
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Cheers,
I was getting all confused, and misinterpreting your intent, hence why I needed clarification.
dileas
tess
I was getting all confused, and misinterpreting your intent, hence why I needed clarification.
dileas
tess
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Vern, IN HOC SIGNO, Mainer and Your Eminence
thank you for your posts, amazing. I happen to be into my faith, but I sincerely believe that even if I weren't, I would appreciate the Padre's role. I can't possibly imagine the CF without them.
But...I'm still trying to figure out what tess meant ???
thank you for your posts, amazing. I happen to be into my faith, but I sincerely believe that even if I weren't, I would appreciate the Padre's role. I can't possibly imagine the CF without them.
But...I'm still trying to figure out what tess meant ???
the 48th regulator
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I was reading his comments, exactly opposite in what he was trying to say. Which was why I asked for clarification before I made a statement.
Once he answered me, I was glad that I did not shoot from the hip and rake Cameron overthe coals for the worng reasons
dileas
tess
Once he answered me, I was glad that I did not shoot from the hip and rake Cameron overthe coals for the worng reasons
dileas
tess
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Iterator said:
You sir, before you start spouting off about religious ceremonies should do a little bit of research. the sacrement of "Annointing of the sick" must be done while the individual is still alive, or within minutes of death, not a week later during the media frenzy. We're not saying the Chaplian needs to run around the filed of battle as was done in the World Wars, but it is not unreasonable for a padre to be in position in garrison, or in a field hospital. Chaplains of any faith provide much more than last rights of course. I'm a catholic I take solace in talks with my spiritual leaders, reconciliation, communion and such, as do the protestants with their particular ceremonies and the Jews with thiers. Hey I have and Idea seeing as the battle field is so net centric lets get rid of the infantry, or maybe scale it down to only 1 battalion, drop the Arty down to 1 Battery. The Chaplains and all thier faiths have as much a distinguished military history as any other regiment or branch. To say ban the religion(s) and still not know what you're banning is short sighted, ill advised, and concieved off the cuff. It is apparent from the tone of your posts you are anti-religion period and nothing anyone who supports religion can say will change your view to simply accept or tolerate others views.
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I too, have had a hesitancy to stay out of this thread although I have discussed it with my peers as it is of an interest to me.
My grandfather was taken a POW in 1941 off the coast of Malaysia after his ship was attacked and sunk by the Japanese and remained a POW until his camp was liberated in 1945. He wasn't an overtly religious man, but had a CofS designation on his dog tags. During his incarceration, he and a select few POWs would do a rotating escape to contact sympathetic islanders who in turn, passed on the INTEL to the allies. They would intentionally be recaptured to continue gathering enemy INTEL throughout their incarceration.
Each time they escaped, they knew that some of their peers would bear the brunt of their escape and possibly be executed. Yet, they continued to carry out their duty. Everytime my Grandfather and his peers were recaptured, he would spend 30-60 days in the sweat box. Everyday the men on the outside of the box would gather and recite the 23rd Psalm to the inmates or sing the hymns of their Branches. They were allowed to do that as their Japanese guards did not try to stop the ministering of faith to the inmates. My grandfather said that he when he felt he could not go on any longer, that hearing the weakened voices of his peers in prayer afforded him the faith that he would survive and if he were to die because of the beatings, the hunger, the illnesses that wracked his body, he knew that it was a just death because he did not break faith with his peers or the men and women who had sacrificed themselves before him.
In the years after his liberation and his return to civvy life, each August he would gather at the Cenotaph with the other survivors of the camps to mark V-J day. He started taking me when I was 5. The men would repeat the 23rd Psalm as if they were speaking it to the men who didn't return with them. They would sing the hymns of the Branches and vow to Remember Them. I asked my grandfather in a time period of my life when I wasn't sure about there being a God, or why anyone would ever want to be religious, why he always prayed at these acts of remembrances. That's when he told me about the breaking of faith with the men and women who had died. He said that until someone else could find another way to express it so that it means and has the same intent, prayer was the only way to keep that faith with the dead. He said that whatever the alternative would be it would have to encompass the Divine Rights of the Queen to whom all Commonwealth servicemen swore to serve, that it would have to include ways to morally bind the person to whatever oath or affirmation they undertook when they enlisted as he truly believed that the enrollment of a person in the military meant that they were entering into an agreement to not only serve their Queen and Country but also to carry on from those who gave up their lives while in that service. John McCrae understood that and so has every military leader that has asked of their troops, sailors and airmen to lay down their lives. Until such a time that all of that can be expressed and be understood to mean the same thing the apparent mechanism of ceremony, prayer and respect is just going to have to suffice.
Now, fast forward to 1982. I'm still not overtly religious but I attend church services and I have baptised my child. On an early summer day, a notification party is standing at my door telling me that my husband has been killed. For all the people that hovered around me for the days and weeks afterwards, the only persons who truly understood the depths of my grief were my Grandparents and the Padre. It was the padre that guided me through the moments where I questioned the fairness of my husband's death. The moment of my comfort came when I reconciled the reasons for his duty and his sacrifice. I have and continue to keep faith with him and those who died for me. I can only express that faith in the acts of remembrance, prayer and when words are not appropriate, the doffing of my hat and bowing of my head. I have not found any other way to express that and affords me to being able keep that faith.
I respect people's faiths and their religious dogma, their spirituality and their non beliefs. We have had a long line of just wars and conflicts that have afforded us those rights to practice or not to practice whatever faith or belief one requires to find their way through life. What I believe, those accumulative conflicts and wars did not grant us is the right to dictate to each other that one belief has to be excluded/included at the whim of a select few. We have had a long battle to attain democracy, and I say, let the democratic mechanisms operate in their fullest while at the same time if those democratic mechanisms suggest that religion is passe in the military, then let it also create ways and means to express and keep the faith with those that gave us that democracy.
And to those who perhaps feel that it is too much an imposition to doff a hat, bow a head or simply shut up for a few moments to allow others to carry out their acts of remembrances and acts of faith, then I feel immensely sorry for you that you fail to "get" what the program is truly about. For those who do find their way to participate even though their own belief systems say otherwise, then to them I say, thank you.
My grandfather was taken a POW in 1941 off the coast of Malaysia after his ship was attacked and sunk by the Japanese and remained a POW until his camp was liberated in 1945. He wasn't an overtly religious man, but had a CofS designation on his dog tags. During his incarceration, he and a select few POWs would do a rotating escape to contact sympathetic islanders who in turn, passed on the INTEL to the allies. They would intentionally be recaptured to continue gathering enemy INTEL throughout their incarceration.
Each time they escaped, they knew that some of their peers would bear the brunt of their escape and possibly be executed. Yet, they continued to carry out their duty. Everytime my Grandfather and his peers were recaptured, he would spend 30-60 days in the sweat box. Everyday the men on the outside of the box would gather and recite the 23rd Psalm to the inmates or sing the hymns of their Branches. They were allowed to do that as their Japanese guards did not try to stop the ministering of faith to the inmates. My grandfather said that he when he felt he could not go on any longer, that hearing the weakened voices of his peers in prayer afforded him the faith that he would survive and if he were to die because of the beatings, the hunger, the illnesses that wracked his body, he knew that it was a just death because he did not break faith with his peers or the men and women who had sacrificed themselves before him.
In the years after his liberation and his return to civvy life, each August he would gather at the Cenotaph with the other survivors of the camps to mark V-J day. He started taking me when I was 5. The men would repeat the 23rd Psalm as if they were speaking it to the men who didn't return with them. They would sing the hymns of the Branches and vow to Remember Them. I asked my grandfather in a time period of my life when I wasn't sure about there being a God, or why anyone would ever want to be religious, why he always prayed at these acts of remembrances. That's when he told me about the breaking of faith with the men and women who had died. He said that until someone else could find another way to express it so that it means and has the same intent, prayer was the only way to keep that faith with the dead. He said that whatever the alternative would be it would have to encompass the Divine Rights of the Queen to whom all Commonwealth servicemen swore to serve, that it would have to include ways to morally bind the person to whatever oath or affirmation they undertook when they enlisted as he truly believed that the enrollment of a person in the military meant that they were entering into an agreement to not only serve their Queen and Country but also to carry on from those who gave up their lives while in that service. John McCrae understood that and so has every military leader that has asked of their troops, sailors and airmen to lay down their lives. Until such a time that all of that can be expressed and be understood to mean the same thing the apparent mechanism of ceremony, prayer and respect is just going to have to suffice.
Now, fast forward to 1982. I'm still not overtly religious but I attend church services and I have baptised my child. On an early summer day, a notification party is standing at my door telling me that my husband has been killed. For all the people that hovered around me for the days and weeks afterwards, the only persons who truly understood the depths of my grief were my Grandparents and the Padre. It was the padre that guided me through the moments where I questioned the fairness of my husband's death. The moment of my comfort came when I reconciled the reasons for his duty and his sacrifice. I have and continue to keep faith with him and those who died for me. I can only express that faith in the acts of remembrance, prayer and when words are not appropriate, the doffing of my hat and bowing of my head. I have not found any other way to express that and affords me to being able keep that faith.
I respect people's faiths and their religious dogma, their spirituality and their non beliefs. We have had a long line of just wars and conflicts that have afforded us those rights to practice or not to practice whatever faith or belief one requires to find their way through life. What I believe, those accumulative conflicts and wars did not grant us is the right to dictate to each other that one belief has to be excluded/included at the whim of a select few. We have had a long battle to attain democracy, and I say, let the democratic mechanisms operate in their fullest while at the same time if those democratic mechanisms suggest that religion is passe in the military, then let it also create ways and means to express and keep the faith with those that gave us that democracy.
And to those who perhaps feel that it is too much an imposition to doff a hat, bow a head or simply shut up for a few moments to allow others to carry out their acts of remembrances and acts of faith, then I feel immensely sorry for you that you fail to "get" what the program is truly about. For those who do find their way to participate even though their own belief systems say otherwise, then to them I say, thank you.
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niner domestic, there have been several arguments (including mine) both for and against on this thread. None have put their points across as succinctly yet as eloquently as you. In a recent thread on the Falklands you did the same thing, use a deeply personal perspective to crystallize an issue, again thanks. 
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niner....you are awesome that was not only beautiful but one of the best treatises I've ever seen for the inclusion of religious faith in the military. thanks 
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Well about the Padre being in the CF everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm not a religious person but I do see a place for the Padre. I don't believe I should be subjected in any way to a religious ceremony because I don't practice religion. Although I do believe in order and discipline, I'm glad this Lt. decided to stand up for himself in this matter because without acts of civil disobedience such as this than there would rarely ever be change.
Look at many of the landmark decisions that are made in military/Criminal Code, they wouldn't have been achieved unless people stood up for their beliefs. That being said the army of today is not the army of yesterday and I believe it should evolve as society does within reason of course.
Look at many of the landmark decisions that are made in military/Criminal Code, they wouldn't have been achieved unless people stood up for their beliefs. That being said the army of today is not the army of yesterday and I believe it should evolve as society does within reason of course.
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It's not so much that he stood up for himself, it's the method in which he did it. On parade surrounded by subordinates (had anyone else refused at the same time following his lead it would amount to mutiny). We have a grevience system for a reason, you don't like something and have a solution staff a greivence, but to disobey a command on parade erodes good order and discipline and unit cohesion. He should have staffed it properly, and he started out that way, informally with his CoC, when that failed the next step would have been a formal redress of greivance, and eventually it would end up before the AFC and a change would have been made, instead it went before the military justice system and the change was made, same outcome differnet methods, only shortly after that there was a rash of similar acts of disobedience throughout the base in question. I'm a religious man myself, but I don't disagree with his right to grieve, just not in front of the troops, on parade.
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Further to my last, we're not talking about a Lt (Aslt) with 2 years in here, this guy was a 51 year old LT(N)/Capt with 24 years of service before he pulled this stunt
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John Weir Foote
The Reverend John W. Foote was the first member of the Canadian Chaplain Services to be awarded the Victoria Cross. Calmly, through eight hours of gruelling battle, Reverend Foote, Chaplain of the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry, continually exposed himself to very intense fire to help move the injured to an aid post, saving many lives through his brave efforts. Then, at the end of this ordeal, he jumped from the landing craft that would have taken him to safety. He walked courageously into the German positions to be taken prisoner, so he could minister to his fellow Canadians who were now POWs.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar/dieppe/dieppe2/d_vc&CFID=15340618&CFTOKEN=28680741
The Reverend John W. Foote was the first member of the Canadian Chaplain Services to be awarded the Victoria Cross. Calmly, through eight hours of gruelling battle, Reverend Foote, Chaplain of the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry, continually exposed himself to very intense fire to help move the injured to an aid post, saving many lives through his brave efforts. Then, at the end of this ordeal, he jumped from the landing craft that would have taken him to safety. He walked courageously into the German positions to be taken prisoner, so he could minister to his fellow Canadians who were now POWs.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar/dieppe/dieppe2/d_vc&CFID=15340618&CFTOKEN=28680741
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ArtyNewbie said:
You make a good point but let's just say for instance that he took all the formal steps and still was not given permission...Do you think he would have had no choice but to do what he did?
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If the whole process failed including redress up to and including the minister and his member of parliment, then sure, but this would have been a lengthy process, and he would have needed more than a months notice to do it. I wonder whats next, refusal to remove headress when entering a mess, after all it is in defference to the queen, she's appointed by devine right after all.
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indeed we have but for other reasons, it was determined that forcing pers to remove religious headress was improper so it was permitted for religious headwear to remain in messes, but only religious headwear, but you'll notice they have to remove it to go on the range IOT don a helmet, safety first. you'll also notice that the LT(N) in this case finished the CE hes was on (about 6 months after the court martial) and wasn't re-engaged for another 5 hmmmmm, maybe the system saying you're right, but did it wrong.
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Removing headdress is a sign of respect. That is why we do it for the Queen, or in the old days when a lady passed by.
What this individual is saying is not "I'm not going to participate in your religious ceremony" he is saying "I have no respect for anyone's beliefs but my own".
As a godless heathen myself I do not bow my head in prayer during services but I also do not thumb my nose at the beliefs of all those surrounding me, just to draw attention to my disbelief.
He's an asshat, and like all asshat's should be summarily ignored... Throat punches are permitted where warranted.
What this individual is saying is not "I'm not going to participate in your religious ceremony" he is saying "I have no respect for anyone's beliefs but my own".
As a godless heathen myself I do not bow my head in prayer during services but I also do not thumb my nose at the beliefs of all those surrounding me, just to draw attention to my disbelief.
He's an asshat, and like all asshat's should be summarily ignored... Throat punches are permitted where warranted.
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Reccesoldier said:
Well said, I personally, go one farther..............I will, and do, participate in whatever house of worship I may be in.
What is the loss for showing other respect?
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
I think you can show respect without being forced to participate in worshipping or paying any sort of hommage to whatever religion or deity there is...Like for instance when I was in highschool there was a kid who was a Jehovah's witness and I thought it was pretty disrespectful that he would not stand for the national anthem. Now that I am older and I understand that it is not his belief I believe I should respect HIS right to not have to engage in (a form of worship) standing for the national anthem as painful as that is for me to even say.
FYI this is why you will not likely see a Jehovah's witness as a police officer or in the military
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