Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[daftandbarmy]

That just gave me pause to think.

In 1966 I had the pleasure of being a member of the first troop to parade on the drill square of the brand spanking new, state of the art Moss Park Armoury in Toronto which housed one artillery regiment, two infantry battalions and the fledgling service support elements that were about to become a service battalion. There were offices all around the main floor including three classrooms while the entire upper floor was taken over by messes. So a ration of 1:1 for messes v administration/training. Oh yes and there was also a basement for QM stores and all of our guns and vehicles which at best could hold around twenty maybe twenty-five trucks. So. Four "battalions"; twenty some odd trucks; four guns; and twelve wet messes and two dry canteens. Priorities.

It would be scandalous... if anyone really cared of course

 

[blacktriangle]

We have 6 (six) licensed establishments in one 1915 era building but only one (very poorly equipped e.g. 6ft tables and folding chairs avec chalk board a la 1968) training room shared by two regiments. We have to parade on different nights of the week, in part so we can use the one room that can seat 30 (pre- COVID).

I think you seriously misunderstand the primarily role of the reserve Infantry and Artillery

You guys are full to the brim with capable NCOs and Officers, serviceable GPMGs and night optics though, right?

 

[daftandbarmy]

You guys are full to the brim with capable NCOs and Officers, serviceable GPMGS, and night optics though, right?

If by 'night optics' you mean 'the red filter I swing down on my personally acquired Petzl headlamp' then yes, of course

It's OK though, we're tasked with providing a Recce Pl and have very few recce trained pers either AFAIK, so we don't need anything like that right?

So, yeah, pretty much less night vision gear than we had in 1979 when I was with the militia in Vancouver and had Starlight scopes issued.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

While that is silly unless it is a safety issue that grounds the veh, the unit can take the vehicle back and use it as outstanding usable (which means there is a fault but veh is still drivable). This is less a maint/supply issue and more a unit that doesn't understand how things work (or is getting bad advice).

That is robbing which mean there is an intention to replace the part eventually, cannibalization means there is no intent to ever replace the part. Permission for both is usually held at the formation level but not unheard of at the tactical/unit level to make magic happen. Have subscribed to the school of rob first ask permission later at times myself.

Is it robbing when you acquire parts from another allied army without their knowledge? Asking for a friend....

 

[blacktriangle]

If by 'night optics' you mean 'the red filter I swing down on my personally acquired Petzl headlamp' then yes, of course

It's OK though, we're tasked with providing a Recce Pl and have very few recce trained pers either AFAIK, so we don't need anything like that right?

So, yeah, pretty much less night vision gear than we had in 1979 when I was with the militia in Vancouver and had Starlight scopes issued.

Shoulda been in LFCA or whatever the eff they call it these days. OPFOR (especially if any RegF present) would be too busy making fools of the QOR, or roadkill of whatever QY RANG/GGHG Recce Tp that just advanced into an obvious defile to even notice your Recce Pl...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Shoulda been in LCFA or whatever the eff they call it these days. OPFOR (especially if any RegF present) would be too busy making fools of the QOR, or roadkill of whatever QY RANG/GGHG Recce Tp just advanced into an obvious defile to even notice your Recce Pl...

OPFOR? You guys were organized enough to have a proper OPFOR?

Luxury!

 

[Rifleman62]

FJAG: "In 1966 I had the pleasure of being a member of the first troop to parade on the drill square of the brand spanking new, state of the art Moss Park Armoury in Toronto...."

I was on that parade also, as a Pioneer with the QOR. Got a photo somewhere.

Times have changed. That may "Regimental" messes would never happen again in a new build. Wonder if there are composite messes in Moss Park now?

 

[FJAG]

FJAG: "In 1966 I had the pleasure of being a member of the first troop to parade on the drill square of the brand spanking new, state of the art Moss Park Armoury in Toronto...."

I was on that parade also, as a Pioneer with the QOR. Got a photo somewhere.

Times have changed. That may "Regimental" messes would never happen again in a new build. Wonder if there are composite messes in Moss Park now?

That would have been the slightly later official parade.

The one I'm talking about was when our TSM took us over from the temporary Richmond Street Armory (basically a small warehouse building) to the new armouries for a look around before it was officially opened. The commissionaire let us in and we took advantage of doing some foot drill while there. The QOR were with us in Richmond and you'll remember the parade square there was a basement room around maybe 50 x 100 feet where we had to do "automatic wheels" so we wouldn't run into the walls. A real parade square was luxury.

 

[Rifleman62]

Richmond had a cobblestone floor. Very slippery with studded ammunition boots, especially doing 140 paces per minute! I was told that Richmond building was where the QOR mobilized for the Riel excursion in 1885.

 

[FJAG]

Richmond had a cobblestone floor. Very slippery with studded ammunition boots, especially doing 140 paces per minute! I was told that Richmond building was where the QOR mobilized for the Riel excursion in 1885.

I don't think so about the latter. Richmond was just a facility (a former warehouse and business (If I recall directly, the main floor was a drive in garage under which there was an open basement and then two upper stories, the lower one for offices and the upper for messes.) that DND rented for a few years (1963 -5) after the University Avenue Armory was demolished to make way for the new court house complex and prior to Moss Park being completed. (The City had wanted the University Avenue Armoury site for quite some time)

The QOR was at University since 1894 joined by the 48th Highlanders and 29 Fd and 42nd Medium, a service company and the GGHG. It was Toronto's first real, large-scale armory. Prior to that from the time of the formation of the Battalion there are references that I've found to a Drill Shed but without an actual location until 1877 when a new Drill Shed was built on Front and Jarvis Street (across the street from the St Lawrence Market. It is from this location that the Toronto contingent would have marched off in 1985.

Front and Jarvis is about three blocks south of the Richmond St facility.

 

[dangerboy]

The QOR was at University since 1894 joined by the 48th Highlanders and 29 Fd and 42nd Medium, a service company and the GGHG. It was Toronto's first real, large-scale armory. Prior to that from the time of the formation of the Battalion there are references that I've found to a Drill Shed but without an actual location until 1877 when a new Drill Shed was built on Front and Jarvis Street (across the street from the St Lawrence Market. It is from this location that the Toronto contingent would have marched off in 1985.

Front and Jarvis is about three blocks south of the Richmond St facility.

When I was in the 48th in the early 90's the veterans were still bitter about the demolishing of the University Armouries.

 

[FJAG]

When I was in the 48th in the early 90's the veterans were still bitter about the demolishing of the University Armouries.

Yeah. At the time I joined both 42 Med, 29th Fd and 1st Loc had been amalgamated into 7th Tor so those guys were mad about two things. The problem was that University Armoury took up a piece of absolutely prime downtown real estate right next to the new City Hall and the city was just slavering to get their hands on that piece of land.

There's an article here which I find interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Armories

The interesting part is that the various regimental associations came on board with the idea of building the new Moss Park Armoury at Queen and Jarvis.

Not sure what the area was like when you joined, but in 1966, Queen and Jarvis was a shithole. The place was surrounded by a about a half dozen or more missions who were housing and feeding the downtown homeless and patrolled by dozens of low rent hookers. There was at the time an empty field next to the armouries and every morning on my recruit course we would run several circuits of the field in formation. Concurrently the missions had opened and field was covered by literally hundreds of folks stretched out having their post-breakfast sleep in the grass which meant our run was also a steeplechase jumping over the sleeping and comatose. Essentially they moved everyone from prime University Avenue real estate to the middle of a slum and red light district. I'm not sure what was in the associations heads at the time.

 

[dapaterson]

Probably thinking "The slum is a prime recruiting area, and the red-light district a fringe benefit." QoR are airborne, after all...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yeah. At the time I joined both 42 Med, 29th Fd and 1st Loc had been amalgamated into 7th Tor so those guys were mad about two things. The problem was that University Armoury took up a piece of absolutely prime downtown real estate right next to the new City Hall and the city was just slavering to get their hands on that piece of land.

There's an article here which I find interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Armories

The interesting part is that the various regimental associations came on board with the idea of building the new Moss Park Armoury at Queen and Jarvis.

Not sure what the area was like when you joined, but in 1966, Queen and Jarvis was a shithole. The place was surrounded by a about a half dozen or more missions who were housing and feeding the downtown homeless and patrolled by dozens of low rent hookers. There was at the time an empty field next to the armouries and every morning on my recruit course we would run several circuits of the field in formation. Concurrently the missions had opened and field was covered by literally hundreds of folks stretched out having their post-breakfast sleep in the grass which meant our run was also a steeplechase jumping over the sleeping and comatose. Essentially they moved everyone from prime University Avenue real estate to the middle of a slum and red light district. I'm not sure what was in the associations heads at the time.

I'm always amazed at how awful some militia armouries are and, paradoxically, how much the units fight to continue living and working in squalor at the expense of quality training and overall operational efficiency.

Probably thinking "The slum is a prime recruiting area, and the red-light district a fringe benefit." QoR are airborne, have a few 'Jolly Jumpers' after all...

There, FTFY

 

[MilEME09]

Someone at army HQ is on this form because I just read as part of Force 2025 "asses the impact of minimizing the number of formation level HQs, within the CA to reinvest those positions into required capabilities"

Highly recommend reading up on force 2025, looks like major restructuring of the CA is coming.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Someone at army HQ is on this form because I just read as part of Force 2025 "asses the impact of minimizing the number of formation level HQs, within the CA to reinvest those positions into required capabilities"

Highly recommend reading up on force 2025, looks like major restructuring of the CA is coming.

Whatever happens, it looks like it will wind up being a 'Musical Chairs' shuffling exercise. Not very bold at all...

Assumptions​

• There will be no fundamental changes to policy or resource allocation, and the Canadian Army’s modernization goals will remain relevant to the achievement of Canada’s defence objectives;
• Subsequent planning horizons will be impacted by moderate policy and resource adjustments. This will necessitate a constant multi-horizon development perspective, meaning this document will require periodic updating;
• Modernization efforts must be undertaken concurrent to force generation and force employment on operations. There will be no pause. Efforts must be managed and prioritized, with the tempo of change being a key lever of control; and,
• Significant growth in structure is unlikely. All modernization efforts will be conducted with the perspective that every change in capability, structure, or organization must be done within the Canadian Army’s existing personnel envelope.

Canadian Army - Canada.ca

Official Canadian Army website. News and photos about soldiers and Canadian Armed Forces. Jobs for Reservists.

www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca

 

[FJAG]

Someone at army HQ is on this form because I just read as part of Force 2025 "asses the impact of minimizing the number of formation level HQs, within the CA to reinvest those positions into required capabilities"

Highly recommend reading up on force 2025, looks like major restructuring of the CA is coming.

Which of the various documents are you referring to? The latest one I have seen is Ed 4 of Advancing with Purpose dated Dec 2020. Is there anything newer?

 

[MilEME09]

Which of the various documents are you referring to? The latest one I have seen is Ed 4 of Advancing with Purpose dated Dec 2020. Is there anything newer?

I was reading various F2025 PowerPoints on DWAN. Most of it goes into opsec state of the CAF that can't be shared here.

 

[FJAG]

I was reading various F2025 PowerPoints on DWAN. Most of it goes into opsec state of the CAF that can't be shared here.

Too bad. Hope some of that gets into the public domain at some point.

 

[Haggis]

I was reading various F2025 PowerPoints on DWAN. Most of it goes into opsec state of the CAF that can't be shared here.

Wait for next week's budget.