2022 CPC Leadership Discussion: Et tu Redeux

[Fishbone Jones]

That's the proposal from the Conservative backbencher that spawned this whole thing. The other option is some sort of GoC digital ID you would have to provide, which is even more Orwellian. That would be phenomenal tracking tool that can be used by the government directly to better correlate your digital footprint as well as another data point for advertising and data aggregation people (Google etc) for legal purposes or for data theft people for social engineering, and also gives another big juicy hacking target for the database that would be behind it. Another weird dichotomy from a party that is for small government and doesn't think public servants are competent but wants to get right up in people personal shit with a solution that would require a big government footprint and let them track you directly.

It's a terrible idea from a data security point of view, probably totally unenforceable for non-Canadian hosted sites anyway, and also super easy to bypass by using a VPN to change your IP address to a different country code. Those take a few minutes to set up and are dead simple to use, and have a lot of legitimate uses.

The only people it would actually impact are non-technologically savvy people, which probably aren't too many in the under 18 crowd (who may also have access to things like fake IDs or use their parents as another easy way to bypass this). I'm sure there would be a bunch of stolen identities, black mail threats, and other opportunities for the criminally enterprising. Folks might not like porn (particularly in the so-con circles that forms a large part of his base) but it is legal, so their not liking it doesn't mean adults can't enjoy it., and is a bit of a stealth imposition of puritan beliefs on others under a false flag (which again, on the other foot is a 'left wing agenda by wokists' or whatever when the other side is doing it).

'BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN" is one of the stupidest tropes in politics, but in this case I agree with Trudeau (ugh) that it's a really dumb solution to manufactured problem. If they are actually concerned tools like installing parental controls on digital devices are probably more effective, but still not foolproof. If they wanted to do slightly more than nothing, the concerned parents could just actually try parenting. For the concerned people that aren't the actual parents, they could maybe just mind their own business.

This is a good 15 second soundbyte type idea that quickly turns into a really stupid idea if you think about it for a minute.

It appears that it is a Senate bill, proposed by an Independent senator, appointed by trudeau. The liberals voted against it, while the other parties decided to send it to committee for further discussion. Perhaps the liberals thought it conflicted with their own initiative for online safety?

Senate bill would require age verification for Canadians accessing porn sites

A Senate bill that would require Canadians to verify their age online before accessing porn is moving through the House of Commons without the support of the Liberal government.

www.ctvnews.ca

Doesn't look to be PPs initiative after all. Probably why it's dropped off the map in regards to him.

 

[childs56]

Just spitballing. One possibility he has to start recouping money would be to shut off all virtue signalling foreign aid. We shouldn't be bailing anyone out until we bail ourselves out. Another item he can use is to clear the path for big oil. Give them a year or two to get production and refining up. When we're self sufficient, stop buying foreign oil. Good for Canada, bad for Laurentien Elite shareholders in foreign petroleum.

We already are a net exporter of refined and unrefined oil and natural gas products.

Not sure we need any time to get production up. The refineries/processing plants are already running at or close to capacity.
What we need is another oil and also NG line heading east. Then they can stop importing foreign oil/NG to the Irving refinery and NG plants out east.
Instead buy Canadian oil and gas.
We could also use a couple more refineries built out west to help offset some of the taxs sent out east.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The only people it would actually impact are non-technologically savvy people, which probably aren't too many in the under 18 crowd (who may also have access to things like fake IDs or use their parents as another easy way to bypass this). I'm sure there would be a bunch of stolen identities, black mail threats, and other opportunities for the criminally enterprising. Folks might not like porn (particularly in the so-con circles that forms a large part of his base) but it is legal, so their not liking it doesn't mean adults can't enjoy it., and is a bit of a stealth imposition of puritan beliefs on others under a false flag (which again, on the other foot is a 'left wing agenda by wokists' or whatever when the other side is doing it).

Believe it or not computer literacy is actually lower for <18 year olds than it was for previous generations. The prevailing belief is they should know technology because they grew up with the modern tech already but their experience with tech is all app based on Ipads as opposed to computer based.

Schools don’t teach touch typing, how to create folders, etc. anymore. The basics they taught previous generations. Most don’t have computer labs, its now all school Ipads. Many households no longer have computers, if they do it’s generally a work laptop which the kids are never allowed to touch for obvious reasons. Its just another example of how our education system is failing them.

Restrictive controls as much as I disagree with them are actually more likely to have a effect on the youth than anyone else simply because their technological literacy is so low.

That being said it is a stupid law being proposed which shall likely just result in companies ceasing to operate in Canada (much like how a similar law caused them to cease operation in a specific state).

 

[Navy_Pete]

It appears that it is a Senate bill, proposed by an Independent senator, appointed by trudeau. The liberals voted against it, while the other parties decided to send it to committee for further discussion. Perhaps the liberals thought it conflicted with their own initiative for online safety?

Senate bill would require age verification for Canadians accessing porn sites

A Senate bill that would require Canadians to verify their age online before accessing porn is moving through the House of Commons without the support of the Liberal government.

www.ctvnews.ca

Doesn't look to be PPs initiative after all. Probably why it's dropped off the map in regards to him.

Thanks for the correction, honestly thought it was a CPC backbencher. My mistake.

@Eaglelord17 my concern there is that it will get companies to pull out of Canada all together, which means they will no longer comply with Canadian laws for regulating the content. Pornhub was recently purchased by some kind of Canadian investment group in Canada, which means that if someone puts something up on the biggest porn site on the planet that shouldn't be there (like revenge porn) people currently have a real recourse. If they move it overseas somewhere that's gone. So for the folks that are against porn it will actually make the freely available content worse, and they would likely just ignore any fines or whatever from Canada as they don't have jurisdiction.

Very little tech savvy required though to set up a VPN; they are now extremely user friendly and you can get one running on a computer or phone in a few minutes that will autoconfigure.

 

[Good2Golf]

Very little tech savvy required though to set up a VPN; they are now extremely user friendly and you can get one running on a computer or phone in a few minutes that will autoconfigure.

…which affects anything that is a government-controlled digital access issue, ie. VPN total skirts the social media embargo of news, I can VPN through Nora Bora and see Canadian news on Google. Poilievre is in solid enough territory that he can address support for a concept without having to (yet) provide details, since who would reasonably counter him against the fundamental idea of protecting children from predatory behaviour related to the pornography industry. That people here are complaining about the “how would it be done?” while glossing right past the intent to reduce risk to children, is rather intriguing. Perhaps Canadians are content with LE investigating child pornographers in Canada, and leave Canadian to be free to surf porn as they wish?

 

[Rifleman62]

We already are a net exporter of refined and unrefined oil and natural gas products.

Not sure we need any time to get production up. The refineries/processing plants are already running at or close to capacity.
What we need is another oil and also NG line heading east. Then they can stop importing foreign oil/NG to the Irving refinery and NG plants out east.
Instead buy Canadian oil and gas.
We could also use a couple more refineries built out west to help offset some of the taxs sent out east.

Ever hear of Quebec?

 

[Quirky]

I can VPN through Nora Bora and see Canadian news on Google.

New bill proposed by the NDP: Ban VPN services in Canada.

 

[Navy_Pete]

…which affects anything that is a government-controlled digital access issue, ie. VPN total skirts the social media embargo of news, I can VPN through Nora Bora and see Canadian news on Google. Poilievre is in solid enough territory that he can address support for a concept without having to (yet) provide details, since who would reasonably counter him against the fundamental idea of protecting children from predatory behaviour related to the pornography industry. That people here are complaining about the “how would it be done?” while glossing right past the intent to reduce risk to children, is rather intriguing. Perhaps Canadians are content with LE investigating child pornographers in Canada, and leave Canadian to be free to surf porn as they wish?

I think that's the fundamental issue; why do some Canadians feel the need for government intervention above and beyond the actual status quo?

My opinion in general is that kids access to the internet is a parental responsiblity in the digital age, so if there is going to be government intervention it should be to assist parents that want help, not to impose impractical regulation on companies operating to provide a legal product to adults.

I think the concerns around child porn and other illegal content are somewhat separate as that's a bit like trying to regulate illegal arms sales to criminals by imposing things on legal gun owners.

 

[dangerboy]

New bill proposed by the NDP: Ban VPN services in Canada.

That would be a disaster. There are lots of legitimate reasons to have a VPN if you are ever using a free wifi spot such as a hotel or restaurant you should use a VPN to protect yourself.

 

[Halifax Tar]

New bill proposed by the NDP: Ban VPN services in Canada.

Outstanding.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Outstanding.

Not really, just sarcasm.

But, not out of the possible, if the NDP are willing to introduce bills limiting free speech around the oil and gas industry…

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not really, just sarcasm.

But, not out of the possible, if the NDP are willing to introduce bills limiting free speech around the oil and gas industry…

lol I was being sarcastic lol

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I like your sarcasm…

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Believe it or not computer literacy is actually lower for <18 year olds than it was for previous generations. The prevailing belief is they should know technology because they grew up with the modern tech already but their experience with tech is all app based on Ipads as opposed to computer based.

Schools don’t teach touch typing, how to create folders, etc. anymore. The basics they taught previous generations. Most don’t have computer labs, its now all school Ipads. Many households no longer have computers, if they do it’s generally a work laptop which the kids are never allowed to touch for obvious reasons. Its just another example of how our education system is failing them.

Try getting teenagers to use/read emails. They look at you like your asking them to use clay tablets.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Whatever happens, the focus has to remain on the child protection aim while at the same time protecting the almost unlimited freedom of adults. Politicians focus only on the imagined benefits of what they propose, completely ignoring the possible or even probable (obvious) consequences. We may not like online porn much, but the alternatives could be more of what we had before (eg. street prostitution and human trafficking), or some fresh hell no-one except maybe dystopic science-fiction authors has anticipated.

 

[Good2Golf]

My opinion in general is that kids access to the internet is a parental responsiblity in the digital age, so if there is going to be government intervention it should be to assist parents that want help, not to impose impractical regulation on companies operating to provide a legal product to adults.

I agree, I am a small g-overnment type of guy, and am aligned generally with what you describe above. My point regarding Poilievre’s input on the issue was that I don’t believe for a moment that is any kind of a hill that he’d be willing to die on, but he did throw out a thought piece that I think does make us think about the balance of various issues including protection of the young, personal freedoms, reasonable precautions/controls/oversights, etc. There are quite enough technologies that could support a generic/anonymized age-of-majority token that could serve any number of purposes, amongst them age-verified access to porn sites allowed on Canadian ISPs, that are more trustable than just clicking on “Yes, I am 18 years old, or older.” but that don’t provide the government an abilities to back door trace your browsing history (without lawful authorized means…which do exist currently). I believe Poilievre is trying to balance privacy with a responsibility element regarding access to pornography in Canada. Like many said, Canadians could simply appear as a foreigner accessing whatever site they wanted to via VPN.

I think the concerns around child porn and other illegal content are somewhat separate as that's a bit like trying to regulate illegal arms sales to criminals by imposing things on legal gun owners.

Fully agree. As I mentioned earlier, if LE investigate and determine means to pursue prosecution for legally-justified reasons, do so.

 

[childs56]

Ever hear of Quebec?

What about them?
Besides being a money pit.

 

[Remius]

What about them?
Besides being a money pit.

They will also kill your idea if it gets suggested to them. You are not getting oil through them.

 

[childs56]

They will also kill your idea if it gets suggested to them. You are not getting oil through them.

Then shut down line 5 from the US carrying oil and the Trans Canada line carrying natural gas.
They woke up pretty quick when the NG line went down a couple years ago.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I agree, I am a small g-overnment type of guy, and am aligned generally with what you describe above. My point regarding Poilievre’s input on the issue was that I don’t believe for a moment that is any kind of a hill that he’d be willing to die on, but he did throw out a thought piece that I think does make us think about the balance of various issues including protection of the young, personal freedoms, reasonable precautions/controls/oversights, etc. There are quite enough technologies that could support a generic/anonymized age-of-majority token that could serve any number of purposes, amongst them age-verified access to porn sites allowed on Canadian ISPs, that are more trustable than just clicking on “Yes, I am 18 years old, or older.” but that don’t provide the government an abilities to back door trace your browsing history (without lawful authorized means…which do exist currently). I believe Poilievre is trying to balance privacy with a responsibility element regarding access to pornography in Canada. Like many said, Canadians could simply appear as a foreigner accessing whatever site they wanted to via VPN.

Even with generic cookies, it's pretty impressive how easily people can scrape together your digital footprint and very quickly narrow down a lot of very personal data when they aggregate it. If you look at things advertisers can get like user location data (from phone tracking, apps like Strava etc) you can narrow down things to where people live, where they shop, what they browse, etc pretty easily, even though that's pretty anonymous in theory, and fairly straightforward to cross reference that against databases that can get down to your actual name and address.

Overall, I have a lot more faith in the cleverness of people trying to figure out how to make a buck out of data to figure that out than the governments ability to create a age of majority token. Great opportunity though for forgers and hackers to open new business opportunities to dupe them as well though.

I think aside from kids accessing porn, real and practical sex ed in high schools and grades 7 and 8 makes more sense, as that's kind of the age when kids start to poke around at that. Before it used to be someone's dad's porn mags or whatever that would get swiped, now some curious kid can stream HD video of all kinds of weird niche fetishes. I know that's a flash point with some parents, and fair enough, but they are pretty naive if they think little Johnny not learning about how to properly put on a condom and STDs in school because you pulled them out of the class and refuse to talk to them about it means they can't easily watch some kind of hard core porn somewhere regardless of what you do, and you can shelter them from that. If you don't educate your kids, they'll educate themselves, and probably won't be the lessons you want them to learn.