What Bases should stay open and which Bases should be closed

[NavyGrunt]

Navy is like the Armies little brother, no one picks on them except for the Army  

Either way, I'd like to stick around here then go off to some remote area

Dont let anyone pick on me Jay...

 

[HollywoodHitman]

A fulltime REG force presence in the airforce or navy does NOT an army presence make. There is no comparison whatsoever. Zoomies and squids do their thing, crunchies do ours. I can't do your thing, guarantee you can't do mine.

Reg force Infantry is needed in BC. There is NOT a sufficient Reg force presence of any kind on the West Coast. I am a rental, who is more than combat capable, in a Unit that can field more than combat capable troops and I acknowledge our limitations as rentals...............

TM :threat:

 

[pbi]

Just out of idle interest, what is the pressing need to have a RegF Inf unit in the Lower Mainland, other than pre-positioning in the event that The Big One damages airheads and ground transportation routes?

Cheers

 

[Lethbridge U]

No.   "Out of sight, out of mind."
The further we retreat from the public eye, the quicker and deeper our budget will be cut
(ironically, a vicious circle, since costs increase proportionately with distance from supply sources).

Very interesting point. I've never thought of it that way.

 

[aesop081]

A fulltime REG force presence in the airforce or navy does NOT an army presence make. There is no comparison whatsoever. Zoomies and squids do their thing, crunchies do ours. I can't do your thing, guarantee you can't do mine.

I'm pretty sure i can do yours....however its not my job anymore.  You do have a point, we need a joint presence in the north that amounts to more than the rangers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>In the modern age of planes, trains and automobiles the boys in Edmonton are only a short hop away from the West Coast (if so required).

Leaving aside all the things which can happen to railbeds and airfields, we did actually experience a bout of very poor weather which resulted in simultaneous and temporary closure of all three major highways (1, 3, and 5) at various points east of Hope back in the '80s (if memory serves).  It would be a bit of a stretch to knock out every means of getting heavy equipment into the lower mainland, though.

 

[Storm]

Just out of idle interest, what is the pressing need to have a RegF Inf unit in the Lower Mainland, other than pre-positioning in the event that The Big One damages airheads and ground transportation routes?

Cheers

There's no "pressing need" but there are advantages to having a base around BC's lower mainland. I'm not too concerned about it, but I thought I'd list off what I can think of (out of idle interest as well):

-If we ever actually get a sealift capability it would be much easier/cheaper/faster to have equipment an hour or so away from the loading docks rather than having to move them through the mountains.

-Having a reg force presence in sight of a couple million civilians could really help improve their understanding of the forces. As Vancouver is one of Canada's largest cities, having little presence there doesn't exactly help the average Canadian understand what the military does (one of the key barriers to improving our forces).

-The variety of terrain is good in the area, as you can find everything from completely flat to bitchin' steep within a few minutes' drive, not to mention a climate in which you can actually play outside in winter in relative comfort (for those who must, you can still easily walk up a hill for a few minutes to freeze your butt off in the white stuff). This makes the area versatile for all sorts of training exercises.

-Finally, living in Vancouver would improve quality of life since it's such a nice place  :dontpanic: (guess where I'm from   )

BC has plenty of CF presence... Ever heard of Comox and Esquimalt? Sure they're not populated by the crunchies but it's still quite a number of Reg force members.

You mean Vancouver Island has plenty of CF presence. The mainland (the majority of the province in land and population) has precisely crap all. That doesn't help public awareness much.

Seriously though, I don't see the point in messing with new bases (or re-opening closed ones) unless we actually recruit, train, and retain the soldiers that would justify them. People come first.

As to the original topic of this thread: close bases? Wrong forum if you're looking for support on that idea. Talk to your local NDP if you want support for completely abolishing the Canadian military.

 

[Griswald DME]

Pity they couldn't do more with Jericho.  There's not enough land for a large army base however.

 

[pbi]

Storm: my question wasn't really about whether or not we needed a RegF Army presence, it was about why we specifically needed an Inf bn. A few comments:

If we ever actually get a sealift capability it would be much easier/cheaper/faster to have equipment an hour or so away from the loading docks rather than having to move them through the mountains

This makes sense, although to the best of my knowledge all of our military sea movement is done out of Montreal Harbour, even when 1 CMBg goes overseas. I am not sure what would happen if we were to do a Pacific Rim deployment-pehaps then Vancouver would make more sense;

Having a reg force presence in sight of a couple million civilians could really help improve their understanding of the forces. As Vancouver is one of Canada's largest cities, having little presence there doesn't exactly help the average Canadian understand what the military does (one of the key barriers to improving our forces).

What is 39 CBG doing?

The variety of terrain is good in the area, as you can find everything from completely flat to bitchin' steep within a few minutes' drive, not to mention a climate in which you can actually play outside in winter in relative comfort (for those who must, you can still easily walk up a hill for a few minutes to freeze your butt off in the white stuff). This makes the area versatile for all sorts of training exercises

I served briefly in Chilliwack and I was posted at Work Point for three years. I agree with the great countryside, but IIRC one of things that led to the relocation of 1 CER and CFSME was the fact that the increased population of the Lower Mainland (including the Chilliwack area) was making it increasingly difficult to access training areas other than Chilcoten (and that had its own problems). When I served on Vancouver Island we faced the problem of havin nowhere to do mech training, although there were a few dismounted areas. To do any mech trg we had to get off the Island, which was like the second coming of D-Day. It would have to be a light bn if the idea was for it to actually train in that area.

Finally, living in Vancouver would improve quality of life since it's such a nice place  (guess where I'm from  )

What RegF soldiers could afford to live there? Jericho Beach is way too small and is closing anyway. I agree Van is nice though, especially Granville Island. Cheers.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

I tend to agree with pbi on the subject of reg. infantry in BC.  

For those who argue that troops should be in BC because of close access to sealift, you've got to think about this first.   It's going to take a good deal of time for any deployment of troops to get approved in political circles before the troops actually embark on their deployment.   It'll take at least a week or two or so that it'll take Ottawa to settle any squabbles in the cabinet, then debate the motion in parliament.   With that said, it's pretty much a non-issue as to where the troops are that are going to man the pre-positioned equipment.

It does make sense to have another pre-positioned stock on the west coast to deal with any Pacific rim contingencies, ie. 2nd Korean War, Chinese invasion of Taiwan, Indonesian meltdown, etc.   But it would not be a necessity to have troops within one hours driving distance to man that equipment, as they'd likely be sitting on their butts for another 14 days before they got their marching orders at the earliest.

What might make sense would be for a redeployment of 3PPCLI or another light infantry unit to Esquimalt.   This light infantry battalion could focus on mountain and amphibious operations (coastal raids, riverine ops. etc.) given the terrain of BC and Vancouver Island in particular.   While there is not a large-scale training area on Vancouver Island, the US has Ft. Lewis and the Yakima Firing Center in Washington State that could be utilized for live-fire training and company and battalion level training, which would be easier to get to with a light battalion vs. a mech. (troops board up into buses and the rest of the stuff is transported by military vehicles).   Actually, such training evolutions could work out very well for the unit, as the battalion staff would become masters of embark and become very proficient in deploying the unit.   You could also airlift the battalion periodically to Ft. Lewis or Yakima by Canadian or US air transport assets to further enhance this deployability of the battalion.  

 

[pbi]

Matt-that was pretty well what we did in 3PP when we were in Work Point with AVGP Grizzly. We used road and rail ferries to get the vehicles over, and either bus or airlift to move troops. Yakima and Fort Lewis were favourite training locations, since Wainwright was a VERY long road move (I did it once.....that was enough!) Cheers.

 

[R031button]

I think the one thing that is forgotten here is how beneficial a reg force base/presence is for reserve training. It is very very difficult to get needed supplies from WATC, and ASU Chilliwack does not meet that need, it can barely handle outfitting soldiers; case in point I don't have winter gear because I can't get issued it from my unit only the ASU can do that, but my unit has a big box of the stuff, which is currently sitting idle because it has to come from ASU, and the ASU doesn't have to the room to store it. On a more tactical level, our unit (RMRang) has a recce specialization, however, we can't get in any NVG (at least that's a humble privet's understanding of the situation). Now if we had a reg force base here, I would imagine much of the supply issue would be dealt with; as evidence, CScotR's  on my BMQ course showed up in CADPAT with all sorts of guichi kit, simply because they got issued kit from Esquimalt and Comox. I could not even imagine the problems the BCD's must have faced trying to get Cougar's to Vernon from WATC if the RMRang's can't even get a set of NVGs.

 

[pbi]

I don't have winter gear because I can't get issued it from my unit only the ASU can do that, but my unit has a big box of the stuff, which is currently sitting idle because it has to come from ASU, and the ASU doesn't have to the room to store it

I have to ask what your Bde HQ, specifically your G4 staff, are doing about this? We have units far from their support base too, but they get winter kit. Cheers.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Matt-that was pretty well what we did in 3PP when we were in Work Point with AVGP Grizzly. We used road and rail ferries to get the vehicles over, and either bus or airlift to move troops. Yakima and Fort Lewis were favourite training locations, since Wainwright was a VERY long road move (I did it once.....that was enough!) Cheers.

pbi, do you think that keeping 3PPCLI at Work Point Barracks would have been more arguable had they been a light infantry battalion without the mech. resources that consumed alot of time, effort and money to transport to training areas?

Also, do you think that there would be any benefit to having them stationed in Esquimalt so that they would have more opportunity to work on amphibious and mountain operations than they may now in Edmonton?

 

[pbi]

pbi, do you think that keeping 3PPCLI at Work Point Barracks would have been more arguable had they been a light infantry battalion without the mech. resources that consumed alot of time, effort and money to transport to training areas?

Possibly, except that there was nowhere to do any serious sp weapon firing or field firing. We would still have had to go to the mainland for that, and probably still to Yakima for TOW/81mm. Dry dismounted trg areas were pretty good: we did some patrol trg up-island (Deadwood Valley outside Nanaimo-Mark C will remember it well....) in very challenging deadfall swamp with zero ambient light at night because of the canopy.

Also, do you think that there would be any benefit to having them stationed in Esquimalt so that they would have more opportunity to work on amphibious and mountain operations than they may now in Edmonton?

For those two reasons; yes. However, mtn trg can also be done from Edmn (not as easily as Calgary or Esquimalt). Cheers.

 

[CrimsonSeil]

More bases=more soldiers=canada leading power jk that will never happen eh?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

pbi,

Thanks for the insight.  When you consider all the points, it does seem to make more sense to have the battalion in Edmonton now due to their proximity to Wainwright as a local training area, capable of supporting all organic weapons to the battalion, as well as economies of scale in terms of support garnered by the 'superbase' model.

On the subject of amphibious training, it would probably be easier to move a company at a time to Esquimalt or some other location to go through the training rotation, then home to Edmonton when the training was complete.

 

[Storm]

(edit: ended up longer than I planned... skip to the last paragraph if you're short on time)

Storm: my question wasn't really about whether or not we needed a RegF Army presence, it was about why we specifically needed an Inf bn.

Whoops, missed that. I read it as being about Reg presence in general. I don't really see why it would have to be specifically infantry either.

What is 39 CBG doing?

I have to ask what your Bde HQ, specifically your G4 staff, are doing about this? We have units far from their support base too, but they get winter kit. Cheers.

You seem to be wondering quite a bit what's going on in 39 CBG. ;D

I would comment more, but I'm not in their loop just yet. So far, as a current outsider to 39 CBG, all I can say with credibility is that the NCO handling reserve files at CFRC seems on the ball with my file and the units make a decent showing at public events. I wasn't knocking the importance of reserve presence, just commenting that an everyday reg force presence helps all that much more. I've been driving past Jericho almost every day for a few years now, and have to say that I doubt many civilians know it's even there. The only person in uniform I've seen in all that time (guard shack at the gates 9/11 era notwithstanding) is a Seaforth NCM walking to lunch (I assume) two or three times, and that's from someone who's actually looking. I doubt most people even notice the little sign.

What RegF soldiers could afford to live there? Jericho Beach is way too small and is closing anyway. I agree Van is nice though, especially Granville Island. Cheers.

If they lived by Jericho then the cost of living adjustment would be astronomical. However, heading out of the more central areas you can start finding much more reasonable prices, many no worse than around Victoria. Prices in Chilliwack aren't all that bad.

As an aside, it's too bad about Jericho really. Looks like it must have been a great little station back before it was a park, when they had the amphibs and such out there (going way back now).

What might make sense would be for a redeployment of 3PPCLI or another light infantry unit to Esquimalt.  This light infantry battalion could focus on mountain and amphibious operations.... While there is not a large-scale training area on Vancouver Island, the US has Ft. Lewis and the Yakima Firing Center in Washington State that could be utilized for live-fire training and company and battalion level training, which would be easier to get to with a light battalion vs. a mech...

I like the idea of a light force making use of the geography here. If we'd be sending them off Island to train all the time though, why have them on the island? (I'm having terrible images of having to rely on BC Ferries for transport :blotto It's doubtful the mounties and other groups would give up the sweet deal they got from the forces with Chilliwack though. They'd be just as crazy to give it back as the politicians were to give it to them in the first place, so we'd have to do something new.

Estabilishing a decent reg army presence on the mainland would be easiest closer to Kamloops or Kelowna, as much as I hate to admit it. The lakes around there are enough to play in that either would make a decent area. Then again, so would Squamish (for moderate numbers), but that would guarantee no ability to expand ever.

As fun as that little flight of fancy was, I have to concede that pbi has the reality: it's Edmonton for the long haul. Starting up a new place on the mainland would be too troublesome to be politically viable anytime soon. I can always dream of a time where the forces will be solid enough to seriously look at a dedicated mountain ops location though, can't I?

 

[pbi]

I've been driving past Jericho almost every day for a few years now, and have to say that I doubt many civilians know it's even there

Roger-I didn't mean the HQ itself (our Bde HQ is even more out of the way and nondescript than Jericho, which is actually one of the most beautifully situated of any military installations in Canada IMHO..). I meant the units, which are the ones really "doing" the footprint.

The sad fact (having served in two RegF bns garrisoned in cities, and being stationed next to door to a third), is that in big cities none of us, Reg or Res, make nearly the impact that we do in the smaller places. Cheers.

 

[Bograt]

Okay, I'll bite.

How about Baggotville? Move the Hornets to Goose and Greenwood.