University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) 2005 - 2018 [Merged]

[Ridgeline]

Thanks for the info tango!

 

[Blackadder1916]

Sorry, I meant after the first year they are 3256 ncm and 3952 deo.  700 a month is not a large difference to me.  It is then insignificant

Since you claim to be the owner of a well organized and managed business, I'm surprised that you didn't take proper notice of "opportunity costs".  I did a quick appreciation of the difference in remuneration of the two career paths (NCM to officer vice DEO) using the following assumptions:

-  Five years in the ranks (3 as Pte, 2 as Cpl)
-  Four years as a Subaltern before promotion to Capt
-  All amounts as per current pay table without regard for any past or future fluctuations.

After ten years service these are the amounts a soldier would receive:
NCM to officer -  537,493
DEO                -  661,248
Difference        -  123,755

Besides the significant opportunity cost there would also (perhaps) be lost "windows of opportunity".  Using my assumptions at the end of ten years service an individual who spent five years as an NCM would be (based on a current age of 25 years old) a 35 year old Captain with one year of experience at that rank whereas the DEO would have had 6 years of experience at the same rank level.  The immediate "window of opportunity" (available at that point to the DEO but not the former NCM) that comes to mind is being in the promotion zone for major.  Should the stars align and the sun shine out this individual's *** and promotion to major (in both cases) be attained after completing 6 years as a captain then the difference in salary for the following five years would be 101,132.00 greater for the DEO.

Only you know what expectations (or dreams) you have for a military career.  If that includes (eventually) reaching senior officer rank, then the more years you have in the officer corps the larger the window of opportunity for attaining that rank.

 

[Ridgeline]

Blackadder1916

Being an owner of a business also allows me not to have to worry about the difference in pay ... as I stated before, money is of no real importance to my decision to become an ncm or officer, or my decision to be in the forces...

Thanks for the financial information .. but it of no real importance to me, perhaps someone who does not have financial security as I do would find it valuable.  Also  money is not everything to a lot of people.

Opportunity is diffrent for each person .. you might think that being a ncm is a waste of time, and money, however I do not.  In the long run money is money, you can't take it with you .. and a wise person who invests and makes sound financial decisions, versus someone who doesn't and blows his money, can easily make 100k in those 5 years you pointed out.

I value your comments, however I don't think you grasped the idea I was trying to portray.

 

[Steve031]

It seems like the potential applicant here is thinking about joining the reserves rather than the reg force.  However, I don't think my experience is inapplicable to the regs.  I do know the differences between the reserve and reg training, but having completed all the pre-deployment stuff, a reservist NCM should be equally competent to their reg force counterpart.  The skills which will help you on course are learned throughout any kind of army training, regardless of what it was.  Things like time-management, operating under sleep deprivation etc. are applicable to both reserve and reg courses.

My main point still stands: if you think you want to be an officer eventually, do it right away.  You might get some benefits from being an NCM for a while, but those will be offset by the time you lose to advance your career and the time you'll spend taking courses on stuff you're already quite good at from being an NCM.

 

[George Wallace]

I value your comments, however I don't think you grasped the idea I was trying to portray.

I'm sorry that everyone seems to be overlooking your statements that money is not a concern and are for the most part focusing on what wages you may not be getting as an NCM.  I can see that you are looking at taking a period of your life and actually doing the "hands on" and more practical side of soldiering, rather than the 'administrative'.  Yes, as an NCM you will have more hands on of weapons training, driving training, manual labour, etc.; all things that may provide you with practical experience should you decide to later go the officer route.  As an NCM, there are also Leadership Courses, which will also do you good stead if you decide to go officer later.  At the same time, you may decide that you would rather not go officer, but climb the NCM ladder instead. 

Gauge what you read here, and what answers you get to questions you pose to the Recruiters, and go for it.  If you want to be an NCM after all of this, go for it.  The officer world will still be there, should you decide that is what you want next.

 

[George Wallace]

........  You might get some benefits from being an NCM for a while, but those will be offset by the time you lose to advance your career and the time you'll spend taking courses on stuff you're already quite good at from being an NCM.

???

If he goes officer right away, he will not already be quite good at stuff he did as a NCM; as he would never have been a NCM.

 

[Ridgeline]

Thanks George

I'm a pretty hands on guy, that's also a reason I perfer to go NCM.  I've been building homes for the past ten years, so I don't mind the hard work.  I'll have to see when I'm in where I can do the most good


Cheers

 

[Steve031]

What I said means the benefits of being an NCM will be offset by the loss of career opportunities and the time wasted re-learning stuff you already know how to do because you learned it as an NCM.  If he went officer right away, he would miss out on some benefits but also avoid re-learning this stuff and have more time to pursue his career as an officer.

 

[George Wallace]

What I said means the benefits of being an NCM will be offset by the loss of career opportunities and the time wasted re-learning stuff you already know how to do because you learned it as an NCM.  If he went officer right away, he would miss out on some benefits but also avoid re-learning this stuff and have more time to pursue his career as an officer.

And perhaps all he wants to do is drive a tank.  Officers don't drive tanks.  Think it is foolish.  I know of a Major who came back from Tour in Afghanistan with CIMIC, who took his Release from his Hamilton Reserve unit to join the Regular Force as a Trooper in the LdSH (RC) just because he wanted to be a tank driver.  That is what he wanted to do.  Everyone has their own "Bucket List".

 

[Maverick585]

Hello everyone,

First post here and I hope I don't screw it up.

I have been reading over this site and some of my questions have been answered, but some of the information is very old/outdated. As we all know, things change around the CF more often then I change my socks.

I am looking for information on UTPNCM. I have read the message (msg), spoke with the Base Personal Selection Officcer and talked to Officers at the office.  I am currently at CFLRS so I have a lot of Officers to pick from.


My questions are:

I would like to know what type of grades you need for the credits the msg requires? I'm averaging about a 70% at RMC, plus I had a PLAR done for my training and received a credit for that.

I wanted to go to RMC for a long time for the "network" and the cadet number. In the last few weeks, that has started to change as I am going to be 30 at least when I enter the program, and really don't want to put up with the BS that comes with cadet life, not that I will be a cadet per say. RMC has one program I am interested in, but I have to write an email explaining why space science would be acceptable for INT O. Whereas Carlton U has a new degree BIT Bachelors of Information Technology which is one of the ideal degrees for INT O.

So the question out of the above paragraph is: Is RMC the right pick? Anyone in Otter want to toss in their two cents on this one  :nod:

Has anyone taken a degree that isn't on the list of ideal/ preferred? How hard was it to get the approval from the trade chief?

Also, as an aside, we might want to create a new forum just for CFR/UTPNCM/CEOTP/SCP for us NCM's. This way there is one place to find this info.

Thank you for your advice and I look forward to the discussion.

Cheers,

Drew

 

[niceasdrhuxtable]

I don't think there's a minimum grade cut-off (besides making sure that you passed) but it's just another facet of comparison for you against all the other people applying for the program. I had a 79% average from the University of Waterloo when I applied which seems to have been good enough for my intake year.

I don't really know about preferred degrees and avoiding RMC, so I can't be much help there. From my understanding, RMC gets first pick of all the ROTP/UTPNCM enrollees and whomever they don't pick up goes to their civilian university instead. Hopefully someone else can shed some light on that for you.

 

[ModlrMike]

My understanding is the UTPNCM students at RMC are spared much of the BS. Of course I could be wrong. Several friends have gone UTPNCM at RMC and said the experience wasn't what they expected vis-a-vis 3-4 years of recruit school.

 

[Occam]

Bachelor of Information Technology is an ideal program for INT O?

 

[MP 811]

I was just looking at a list of preferred undergraduate degree's for Int O.  I know Maverick and I are interested in this info.  They are as follows;

Economics
Geography
History
Imagery Science
Information Technology
International Studies
Journalism
Military and Strategic Studies
Political Studies.

Maverick, I highlighted the imagery science degree as I think you can argue that the degree your pursuing is very similar in nature.  Ask the BPSO to check into that for you.  I'm sure that it will be acceptable.

Occam, as above, it is indeed listed as an ideal program.

RMC does indeed have first pic, but you can actually opt to go to a civy university instead.  I know someone here who when asked what her preferences for university were, absolutely refused to go to RMC.  She didn't get any grief over that and they allowed her to stay here to finish her degree.

 

[vonGarvin]

My understanding is the UTPNCM students at RMC are spared much of the BS. Of course I could be wrong. Several friends have gone UTPNCM at RMC and said the experience wasn't what they expected vis-a-vis 3-4 years of recruit school.

My understanding is similar, but dated.  I applied for UTPNCM in 1995 and was accepted, but I attended Civvy U.  Of my fellow "UTs" who went to RMC, all were not considered "cadets" and their diploma was from the "Canadian Military University" (or something like that), but one went in as a cadet, and received the "RMC" diploma.  As far as I recall from then, it was voluntary.

For what it's worth, I am an infantry officer, and my degree was honors German Language and Literature/Philosophy.  I can't recall if either were on "the list", but I also don't recall it being that much of a problem.

Again, my personal experience is rather dated, for what it's worth.

 

[captloadie]

RMC does indeed have first pic, but you can actually opt to go to a civy university instead.  I know someone here who when asked what her preferences for university were, absolutely refused to go to RMC.  She didn't get any grief over that and they allowed her to stay here to finish her degree.

This does make sense for UTs, if it saves posting a member with a family away from the area and school they are currently in. I would hazard a guess though that if someone said they wanted to be moved to attend a civilian university rather than attend RMC, the story would be different.

 

[Maverick585]

Thank you everyone for your input.

We will see how everything plays out.

Cheers,

Drew

 

[PanaEng]

I went to RMC as a UTPNCM in 1992. Preferred degree was Civil Eng but I took Comp Eng - no big deal but I probably would make a lousy BCE officer, ok as a thumperhead
I would still go to RMC for the networking unless you have other stronger reasons not to go. Life in Otter Sqn was pretty good and you could participate with the cadets as little as possible (classes, parades) or as much as the would let you (joining their Sqn, doing the recruit obst course, intramural/varsity teams, etc.) I was on the rifle team and tried for the soccer but sucked more than others  ;D

Academically it is pretty good but the workload is a bit heavier  than a civ U counterpart - but I think well worth the effort.

cheers,
Frank

 

[dangles]

Hey all, I will be graduating from University in 2 years and I will be applying for inf soldier. I realize that this is a NCM position, however it is what I want I have always wanted to do so I will stick with it.

But, I was wondering, if I wanted to become a pilot, or an intelligence officer, or basically a different type of officer than an infantry officer, would it be likely that I would be offered a position through SCP assuming I met all requirements and the trade was open? Or do they like to advance those in a position similar to their NCM trade? [Int op -> Int officer, Inf soldier -> Inf officer]

I ask this because I am wondering whether a VR after my inf soldier VIE was up and then reapplying for an officer position in my chosen trade is a better decision than attempting to go through the SCP [which I realize is quite hard to be chosen for].

Thanks for any advice.
[And I realize this is in the distant future, I just want to know some things first to weigh my options...and I did conduct a search!].

 

[George Wallace]

Hey all, I will be graduating from University in 2 years and I will be applying for inf soldier. I realize that this is a NCM position, however it is what I want I have always wanted to do so I will stick with it.

But, I was wondering, if I wanted to become a pilot, or an intelligence officer, or basically a different type of officer than an infantry officer, would it be likely that I would be offered a position through SCP assuming I met all requirements and the trade was open? Or do they like to advance those in a position similar to their NCM trade? [Int op -> Int officer, Inf soldier -> Inf officer]

I ask this because I am wondering whether a VR after my inf soldier VIE was up and then reapplying for an officer position in my chosen trade is a better decision than attempting to go through the SCP [which I realize is quite hard to be chosen for].

Thanks for any advice.
[And I realize this is in the distant future, I just want to know some things first to weigh my options...and I did conduct a search!].

Welcome to army.ca

Your questions have been asked and answered several dozen times before.  If you had done a SEARCH, you would have several topics covering these very questions.  If you continue to ask questions that have been asked and answered the novelty of your membership will have worn off and your patronage of the site will become quite annoying to the membership.  Things tend to roll downhill very quickly after that, often with the membership have a great deal of fun at your expense.

Yes, you can go from NCM to officer in another Trade.  Yes, you can be a Reservist and do a CT and OT to another Trade, either as an NCM to officer, or officer to officer.  Is it beneficial to remain within one Trade when doing the CT as a Reservist from NCM to officer, or as a Reg NCM to Reg officer under one of the various programs?  Yes it could be, depending on your skills.

Is it wise to RELEASE and do any of the above.  NO.  It removes you completely from the system and you have to start from zero along with all the others who are awaiting Apr 1 to see if any opportunities open up.  Only if you are a "skilled" applicant for whatever you are applying for would you have any advantage over the hundreds/thousands of other prospects.