Summer 2024: Rioting across UK cities

[Brad Sallows]

"Death to the X" has been commonplace rhetoric for millennia. Neither it nor anything like it ought be criminalized.

 

[The Bread Guy]

"Death to the X" has been commonplace rhetoric for millennia. Neither it nor anything like it ought be criminalized.

How about burning down hotels, or river-to-sea statements, though?

A lot depends on context and, at least from what I understand in Canada, specificity, so that's why I'm worried about blanket criminalization. too.

... I've started this by saying "right-wingers" because that's what is occupying the streets in the UK at this time. It seems only proper and fair that the same standards be applied to the left-wingers or religious zealots who make the same calls for violence on social media or even ones who deface works of historic art or impedes the right of way of the public on highways, railroads or public facilities. The rights of a society to function peacefully and undisturbed should be paramount ...

... A government that ignores one faction over another based on cultural, religious or racial grounds is failing its own society. The solution for such a government, or its security forces is to vote them out of office, not to take to the streets.

That bit in yellow seems to be the source of frustration in a lot of different issues/protests

 

[lenaitch]

Just a little segue - here are a few kids - and I mean kids - in Londonderry expressing their dissatisfaction with the government.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1822379190521647144

Start 'em young, and snack on a bag of crisps or Cheetos while your at it.

 

[brihard]

I don't think anyone is justified in resorting to violence or promoting violence - I also don't think the current UK government has any authority to criminalize quite legitimate criticism of itself.

Can you cite any examples where the criminality is actually alleged to be simple legitimate criticism of the government, versus incitement, promotion, or counselling of violence or hatred? Because you’re making one hell of a claim here.

 

[Brad Sallows]

How about burning down hotels, or river-to-sea statements, though?

A lot depends on context and, at least from what I understand in Canada, specificity, so that's why I'm worried about blanket criminalization. too.



That bit in yellow seems to be the source of frustration in a lot of different issues/protests

Specificity is important. "Death to that guy there" is specific.

For a long while intemperate expressions were tolerated and mostly emanated from progressive anti-establishment activists. Over the past decade-and-a-half people perceived as being conservative have increasingly adopted the same tone and techniques against what is now a substantially more progressive establishment, and the latter has come over all "Wait, wait, wait!"

I continue to maintain that the real practical danger of creeping authoritarianism lies with threatened progressive establishments, not threatened conservative ones.

 

[CBH99]

They aren't poor refugee families crossing into the UK fearing for their lives. They are mostly single men, aged 20-35. Islamic countries don’t have to fight wars against the west, they just need to replace the people there through mass invasion immigration. The UK of the 60s is gone. Poland seems to be the only country in Europe still able to maintain their culture and identity, you can only do that if you keep your borders secure.

Couldn't agree more with everything you've said here.

I'd also suggest Hungary is right up there with Poland.

And Russia, albeit to a slightly lesser degree, but I don't see Russia bending over backwards to accommodate foreign cultures to the point of allowing themselves to be assimilated.

In fact after the Moscow terror attacks (at the theatre) I remember a long, long line of non-white men of military age standing in a very long line at the airport, awaiting deportation...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Thanks goodness... the regular police riot control drills were rubbish, pretty much https://www.cbc.ca/news/britain-standing-army-police-riot-1.7285610

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A wee bit of British Humour on the subject

 

[daftandbarmy]

Just a little segue - here are a few kids - and I mean kids - in Londonderry expressing their dissatisfaction with the government.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1822379190521647144

And no, you're not allowed to shoot them.

But arrest them, and have their parents come down to the police station to pick them up, and they'll usually get a good hiding before they get home

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And no, you're not allowed to shoot them.

But arrest them, and have their parents come down to the police station to pick them up, and they'll usually get a good hiding before they get home

Parents can't come get them, might get arrested for their own outstanding warrants.

 

[FJAG]

And no, you're not allowed to shoot them.

This is why God made rubber bullets.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Parents can't come get them, might get arrested for their own outstanding warrants.

The ones that do get a visit from the IRA that night to find out why they were seen at the police station though, which is why the kids get a good kicking

 

[The Bread Guy]

Lotsa good, detailed debate on foreign workers/policies in Canada, so moved that all into its own thread so you can drill deeper into it while keeping this about the riots themselves.

Thread 'Foreign Workers: Political/Labour effects (split from 2024 UK rioting thread)'

6 Aug 2024

From reading this, similar arguments might be made here.

Federal government announces crackdown on ‘bad actors’ abusing the temporary foreign worker program​

Ottawa announces crackdown on ‘bad actors’ abusing the temporary foreign worker program

But advocates say Ottawa's promises fall short of protecting migrant workers from exploitation. “It's not about a few bad apples,” Chris Ramsaroop said. “The entire system is rotten to the

www.thestar.com

Employers were given the green light to hire 239,646 temporary foreign workers in 2023, according to data from ESDC — more than double the number in 2018 when 108,988 TFW positions were approved.

Its little wonder that unemployment of...

• Czech_pivo
• Replies: 60
• Forum: Canadian Politics

• 

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[CountDC]

I don't think it helps that people are getting arrested in the UK and those outside it threatened by the UK police for sharing posts while on the other side they are arming themselves, roaming the streets, attacking some people, rapes going unpunished, etc. When you are prosecuting everything that some citizens do while allowing others or immigrants to go unpunished it is going to lead to violence. Imagine seeing your daughters rapist go free because he didn't know it was illegal or he doesn't speak the local language while the bloke down the road is jailed for saying he doesn't want his tax dollars supporting immigrants. Kid stands on sidewalk watching a protest gets arrested as a right winger. Priests reading from the bible get arrested while traffic down the road is completely blocked by a group praying. Today I saw a clip where an officer was threatening to arrest a woman that was standing in a public area not doing anything but when questioned said she might be praying silently in her head.

Sure, we all hopefully see that everything is slanted some depending on the side publishing but that is what the world and locals are seeing and the government talking heads are not disputing it well.

 

[daftandbarmy]

More! More!

If you want to deter rioters the best way is to facilitate quick and effective contact with the criminal justice system

More than 1,000 arrested following UK riots, police say​

British authorities have now arrested more than 1,000 people following days of rioting involving violence, arson and looting as well as racist attacks targeting Muslims and migrants, a national policing body said on Tuesday.

The riots, which followed the killings of three young girls in the northern English town of Southport, began after the July 29 attack was wrongly blamed on an Islamist migrant based on online misinformation.

Violence broke out in cities across England and also in Northern Ireland, but there have been fewer instances of unrest since last week after efforts to identify those involved were ramped up.

Many have been swiftly jailed, with some receiving long sentences

The National Police Chiefs' Council said in its latest update that 1,024 had been arrested and 575 charged across the UK.

Those arrested include a 69-year-old accused of vandalism in Liverpool.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/more-than-1000-arrested-following-uk-riots-police-say-2024-08-13/

 

[dimsum]

More! More!

If you want to deter rioters the best way is to facilitate quick and effective contact with the criminal justice system

More than 1,000 arrested following UK riots, police say​

British authorities have now arrested more than 1,000 people following days of rioting involving violence, arson and looting as well as racist attacks targeting Muslims and migrants, a national policing body said on Tuesday.

The riots, which followed the killings of three young girls in the northern English town of Southport, began after the July 29 attack was wrongly blamed on an Islamist migrant based on online misinformation.

Violence broke out in cities across England and also in Northern Ireland, but there have been fewer instances of unrest since last week after efforts to identify those involved were ramped up.

Many have been swiftly jailed, with some receiving long sentences

The National Police Chiefs' Council said in its latest update that 1,024 had been arrested and 575 charged across the UK.

Those arrested include a 69-year-old accused of vandalism in Liverpool.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/more-than-1000-arrested-following-uk-riots-police-say-2024-08-13/

absolutely.

Including those who stoke the rage in person and online.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Big boy's rules, watch your fingers... clang!

Boy, 15, is first person charged with riot over recent English disorder​

Move comes as more are jailed, including a self-styled ‘paedophile hunter’ who racially abused rival protesters


A 15-year-old boy has become the first person to be charged with riot over the recent disorder that swept towns and cities across England.

Almost all those involved have so far been charged with violent disorder, which carries a shorter maximum sentence than the offence of rioting. On Wednesday a judge, the recorder of Hull, suggested that prosecutors should consider the riot charge for people alleged to have played a central role in the disorder.

On Thursday the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said that a 15-year-old boy had been charged with riot after disorder in Sunderland. It said more riot charges would follow.

The riot charge carries a maximum sentence of 10 years, whereas for violent disorder the maximum is five years. The boy’s defence lawyer, Chris Wilson, told a hearing that the new charge may have “far wider repercussions”.

The district judge Zoe Passfield adjourned his case for two weeks as she said the new charge must have come as a “surprise” to him. She told the teenager: “The prosecution now want to bring a further charge of riot.

“It is an unusual situation when a new charge is brought after the person has pleaded guilty and it opens up complications that I and the lawyers need to consider carefully.”

The riot charge, under section 1 of the Public Order Act 1986, came on another busy day in England’s courts. Police have previously said the speed at which defendants’ cases have been processed served as a deterrent to further rioting.

The National Police Chiefs’ Council said on Thursday that 1,127 arrests had been made since the disorder started, and 648 charges laid.

Boy, 15, is first person charged with riot over recent English disorder

Move comes as more are jailed, including a self-styled ‘paedophile hunter’ who racially abused rival protesters

www.theguardian.com

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting take on the different types of rioters (also archived here if link doesn't work) ....

Meet the three types of rioter

unherd.com

Spoiler alert: this author sees them as either Combatants, "Geezers and Scallies" and Losers.

 

[jackamela]

I don't think it helps that people are getting arrested in the UK and those outside it threatened by the UK police for sharing posts while on the other side they are arming themselves, roaming the streets, attacking some people, rapes going unpunished, etc. When you are prosecuting everything that some citizens do while allowing others or immigrants to go unpunished it is going to lead to violence. Imagine seeing your daughters rapist go free because he didn't know it was illegal or he doesn't speak the local language while the bloke down the road is jailed for saying he doesn't want his tax dollars supporting immigrants. Kid stands on sidewalk watching a protest gets arrested as a right winger. Priests reading from the bible get arrested while traffic down the road is completely blocked by a group praying. Today I saw a clip where an officer was threatening to arrest a woman that was standing in a public area not doing anything but when questioned said she might be praying silently in her head.

Sure, we all hopefully see that everything is slanted some depending on the side publishing but that is what the world and locals are seeing and the government talking heads are not disputing it well.

That is very much the reality - despite some of the (disappointing) gloating on this site over people getting heavy prison sentences for saying (very) stupid things.

And, yes, mostly just those who are opposed to the government are getting this treatment. There is no real balance there.

 

[CBH99]

absolutely.

Including those who stoke the rage in person and online.

I think the second part of that is where it gets tricky...

I'm all for rounding up the trouble makers who show up in person, stoking the rage & encouraging violence/looting/arson, etc

I'm very much on the fence about rounding up the people who stoke the rage online though, because there are some extremely relevant factors that are much harder to confirm when things are said online.

When people are encouraging violence, issuing threats, or coordinating activity that causes chaos, vandalism, etc - absolutely.

Make an example out of those who try to cause anarchy.



But I don't think that's always the case of what's been happening here...

Posting a video that shows violence being committed isn't a criminal offence, and certainly not one worthy of the government admittedly rushing through the courts & punishing with hefty jail sentences...

Posting a video of what's going on around you so that other people can see what you are seeing, or reposting such a video, is NOT the same thing as sharing for the purpose of supporting anarchy

I can't help but think there have been at least a few people who have been who were simply resharing videos & links that came across their feeds.

How certain is law enforcement and the courts that some of these individuals are even the correct individuals? Take a creative username & add a VPN, and how can the police be certain they are even arresting the right people? Especially when responding to these online posts so surprisingly swiftly?

Or if posting from a home PC, how certain can we be what family member made the post?



(I know there are plenty of ways for us to electronically identify people or confirm what physical devices are used when posting things online...I'm just saying that generally speaking, I don't have a ton of confidence that the UK government isn't catching some innocent people in their rush to hush & control the narrative)