Sports in the CF, or rather lack thereof.

[Biggoals2bdone]

Ok so i'm positive everyone has walked through at LEAST one CF base gym, and seen the huge wall with pictures of all the CF sports Hall of Famers....i've stood there before checking out what some of them won awards for or competed in, and it surprises me GREATLY what I see, things ranging from the OBVIOUS (and over emphasized) long distance running, track events, fencing, weightlifting, boxing, hockey (surprising?) football, basketball and MANY others.

What i'm wondering is WHY we don't have nearly as many sports available NOW in the CF as was 30+ yrs ago.

I've been looking forever, to find something besides Tae Kwon Do (eww) in the combatives area and there's nothing else I can find. No weightlifting anymore, i've seen a plaque on the gym about a powerlifting competition here in Pet, but from the looks of it they haven't had one in a couple years.

I know this comes off as a rant, but i'd also like to do like as some other soldiers and get to do ( maybe compete) in sports I enjoy through the military. Yet the only teams i've heard of here in Pet, are the base soccer team, Coy running team and the Ironman.  None of which are up my alley.  Running in general does not interest me so i'm for sure not going to compete in it. This base is running crazed!

 

[REDinstaller]

Better read the dates on most of those plaques at the Base gym. 1946-1980's when the troops had nothing else to do in their spare time but form sports teams and complete with other units/ bases. Maybe only a handfull had cars, and no internet or computers. This is why the CF sports program was so successful back then, no money to see the country with...join a team and travel on the units dime to beat someone.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

This is a valid point, but boxing and MMA are actually NOT approved sports according to soem CANFORGEN. As well as a multitude of other sports.  I'm also wondering why unlike MANY of the militaries of the world we do not have some institutionalized form of combatives taught to everyone.

 

[Old Sweat]

Boxing was very big in the Canadian Army (Regular) in the fifties and early sixties. Our last CDS - Lieutenant General Walsh - was big on boxing. There was an active inter-unit sports program, with successful teams mioving up to higher levels of competition. Unit sports teams included hockey, fast ball, skiing, track and field, basket ball, boxing and, in Europe, tug of war. Most units had sports platoons/troops whose members were excused all other duties. Even more so, of course, if they brought home trophies, which the army's leadership considered an indicater of operational readiness and military effectiveness.

I was a member of sports troop in track and field in 4 RCHA in 1960 for a few weeks before the big match, and then thankfully rejoined my real troop in the field. A few weeks later I was placed on waivers and picked up for officer training.

The drain on resources of "professional soldier athletes" persisted into the seventies. It was not just a feature of the Canadian Army, as the Brits and others did the same.

 

[REDinstaller]

MMA will IMHO never gain approved status in the CF. Too many career ending injuries will be sustained, hence why broomball the only contact sport in the CF no longer has regionals or nationals. Hockeys no hit rating was awarded a few years ago due to too many people getting hurt, thus draining available manpower to deploy with.

 

[fischer10]

Are we allowed to enroll ourselves in off-base MMA's? I took Ju-Jitsu for 3 years (stopped about 2-3 years back) and was hoping to get back into it... Going to be a heart breaker if I am not allowed to do it

 

[4815162342]

MMA will IMHO never gain approved status in the CF. Too many career ending injuries will be sustained...

I respectfully disagree.

Mixed Martial Arts is statistically speaking the least dangerous combative sport in the world. (proven by several commissions; references avail. if needed.)

Regardless though, I find you may have missed the point BigGoals was trying to make, which is, Self Defense, Militant Combatives Programs, Close Counter Hand to Hand Combat, Grappling, and tactical applications of submission holds etc, are imperative in the well roundedness of a soldier say in the Russian Militia where they drill Sambo Grappling like it was religion, or in the US Army where they have been doing the Gracie Jiu-jitsu Armed Combatives Courses for the last 4 years now and previous types of martial arts as well.

After commenting on the above, maybe you can answer this: do you think the implementation of a rigorous Martial Arts program that teaches everything from the right way to throw a Round House Kick through to how to subdue and submit an opponent, be  well invested in addition to the Canadian Soldier? how much do you agree/dis?

 

[dapaterson]

Regardless though, I find you may have missed the point BigGoals was trying to make, which is, Self Defense, Militant Combatives Programs, Close Counter Hand to Hand Combat, Grappling, and tactical applications of submission holds etc, are imperative in the well roundedness of a soldier say in the Russian Militia where they drill Sambo Grappling like it was religion, or in the US Army where they have been doing the Gracie Jiu-jitsu Armed Combatives Courses for the last 4 years now and previous types of martial arts as well.

"Imperative in the well roundedness"?

Interesting.  I'd think that marksmanship would be rather more sueful - putting down a target at 300m means you're not kicking at it within 1.5m.

After commenting on the above, maybe you can answer this: do you think the implementation of a rigorous Martial Arts program that teaches everything from the right way to throw a Round House Kick through to how to subdue and submit an opponent, be  well invested in addition to the Canadian Soldier? how much do you agree/dis?

No use to the overwhelming majority.  While it may encourage some aggressiveness it's not a core skillset needed; there's little enough time to accomplish the must-dos and some of the nice-to-dos in training; adding not-neededs to the list serves no one.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Can anyone point to a thread here where, based on recent combat arms experiences in Afghanistan, someone has made the case that there was a shortfall in unarmed combatives?  I know we have a very long and inconclusive thread about the usefulness of the bayonet on the modern battlefield, but is there any similar commentary on any style of unarmed combat skills being a shortfall in recent combat.

 

[REDinstaller]

4815162342,

I can't foresee any time soon where 1 Fd Amb or any other support unit will require to close with and destroy the enemy in hand to hand. I haven't missed any part of his point. MMA is not recognized by the CF as a sport, all stop. I would like you to look further into WHO in the US Army is taking training in Gracie jiu-jitsu, and I am quite positive it isn't the whole US Army, only select units that require this sort of training. The only trade in the CF that has a mandate to CLOSE with and destroy the enemy is the Infantry. At no time in my opinion should most pers be given Martial arts training for use in a Combat enviorment. That is why we are issued Bayonets, Pistols, and Grenades. These are the close in weapons of choice for the CF. The Unarmed combat course is given to those that require it. Now we can get back online with Sports in the CF.

 

[REDinstaller]

To the best of my knowledge there has been no hand to hand in AFG by our troops, why close with them when a HESH from 300m will do just fine.

 

[Michael OLeary]

To return this thread to the discussion of sports in general within the CF, I have no doubt that once the busy-ness of the current operational cycle, and the funding for training, diminishes, then sports and ceremonial will both start to fill time in units with the personnel and energy to spare.

Other comments I have made with regard to sports in regimental life, which I have published elsewhere, include:

One aspect of regimental life that is commonly misinterpreted is the role of sports. Sports may take the role of a fitness and bonding activity, or they may be a mechanism to promote and highlight competitiveness. Sports for fitness, conducted by junior officers or NCOs, are an ideal mechanism for soldiers to learn to work together, to expand their awareness of one another’s personalities and reactions, and to improve overall levels of fitness. This works particularly well when the activity and intensity support the general interaction without creating internal segregation by skill or experience levels.

Intramural sports programs, where the soldiers of platoons and companies compete within the unit, can be healthy. This develops primary group pride, but must be established to ensure that every soldier contributes to collective victories, or shared responsibility for losses. When a varied selection of activities allows every soldier to participate, than the sporting program, taken collectively, becomes the primary group strengthening exercise, not any one sport in itself.

When the attraction of ‘winning’ begins to overshadow the values of wide-spread participation and associated primary group benefits, then sports can actually become a corrupting influence on the Regimental System. It is a false premise that unit sports teams necessarily contribute to unit pride. When team members are removed from field training, or excused other work, for practices and games, the shared experience test for developing Regimental esprit de corps is failed. Other soldiers now must bear the additional responsibility and work caused by the departure of team members, who may well be seen as pampered prima donnas by peers who may be better soldiers, but less skilled athletes. Victory in inter-unit sports competitions may bode well across the Brigade Commander’s conference table, but it means little in the men’s mess.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Are we allowed to enroll ourselves in off-base MMA's? I took Ju-Jitsu for 3 years (stopped about 2-3 years back) and was hoping to get back into it... Going to be a heart breaker if I am not allowed to do it

Yup.

I respectfully disagree.

Mixed Martial Arts is statistically speaking the least dangerous combative sport in the world. (proven by several commissions; references avail. if needed.)

The CF won't care. You can argue until you're blue in the face and quote jesus, someone in the CF thinks it's too dangerous so you're out of luck.
There are also some serious injuries in martial arts. May be the least dangerous combative sport but it's still a combative sport. Somehow I doubt punching people in the face and choking people see's less injuries then fencing or something.

After commenting on the above, maybe you can answer this: do you think the implementation of a rigorous Martial Arts program that teaches everything from the right way to throw a Round House Kick through to how to subdue and submit an opponent, be  well invested in addition to the Canadian Soldier? how much do you agree/dis?

You want to throw a round house kick wearing body armor plates and a chest rig?
Do you think 45 year old mothers of 3 (while tough badass's in their own right) will want to take rigorous martial arts training with some 18 and 20 year olds?  Or go home after work with black eyes, fat lips, blood noses?

The MIRs FILL UP with soldiers when there are brigade runs...

Martial arts needs to be done off the clock or at platoon level for the combat arms.


Edit, sorry Michael, posted after you.

I heard back in the day the battalions favored their sports stars and it created a lot of bad blood.

A few years ago I remember driving 3 hours through a brutal snow storm in Bosnia just to switch an all star hockey player who was on gate duty with another soldier so the first guy could go and play in the hockey tournament.

 

[REDinstaller]

I think the fact of the men caring little for inter unit sports is not too true today. Its one of the few outlets they have left to prove who in the Bde is best. But even better is Xmas sports day Tpr/Cpls vs MCpls and SNCOs vs Officers. Everyone wants to pummel the Officers. That kind of competition brings out the best in a Regt. And does away for the most part with cliquey teams that only the select few get to be on.

 

[fischer10]

Thanks for the fast reply Apollo

Just my opinion (not worth anything)....Soldiers don't need it for the battle field in many ways we fight. But, it does build confidence and of course is fun and good way to stay in shape/muscle activation of the over all body. Clearly the ability to enroll yourself in an off-base program is sufficient enough with current fighting styles.

NOW, training people to use a Katana or other sword would clearly be the way to go! haha, just jokes (though, it would be awesome to be a pro at using a Katana), more time spent on fire arm accuracy and vehicle skills would be better

 

[FyroniK]

If MMA is not even approved in ONTARIO, then why would anyone have hope for it in the Forces ?

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

USMC and IDF train ALL their mbrs to a minimum level in their combatives, and some mbrs get to advance with training to higher/more advanced levels.

I'm also fairly certain that the US Army does as well.
Just to name a few.

4815162342,

I can't foresee any time soon where 1 Fd Amb or any other support unit will require to close with and destroy the enemy in hand to hand. I haven't missed any part of his point. MMA is not recognized by the CF as a sport, all stop. I would like you to look further into WHO in the US Army is taking training in Gracie jiu-jitsu, and I am quite positive it isn't the whole US Army, only select units that require this sort of training. The only trade in the CF that has a mandate to CLOSE with and destroy the enemy is the Infantry. At no time in my opinion should most pers be given Martial arts training for use in a Combat enviorment. That is why we are issued Bayonets, Pistols, and Grenades. These are the close in weapons of choice for the CF. The Unarmed combat course is given to those that require it. Now we can get back online with Sports in the CF.

 

[Task]

I think we are arguing two different points here.

1) Should MMA be taught for combat effectiveness. (General training for all)

2) Should MMA be allowed as a sport in the CF. (Specific training for those who want)

I think (point 2) that MMA and many other sports should be allowed back into the CF. While I believe currently there is not enough time for the CF to devote to Nationals in most sports. During such time there should be moratoriums on sports, NOT removal of the sport from the CF.

Sport has a unique way of building espirt du corps at the same time building physical fitness, strength in character and teamwork. The more options members have the more involved the entire CF will be.

WARNING the following is purely speculation and not necessarily fact:
I think ONE of the reasons some of our members are fat is that when people in the past organized PT they turned them into high intensity death sessions (hurting members). These sessions left a fowl taste for PT in some who were then subsequently promoted. However, these members still hold this animosity and lack the political will to change and, or,  enforce current regulations. IMO sport will help this situation for the future. More sports = more people involved in activities they like = fitter general population.

Vancouvers point of view on MMA:
http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/groundandpound/archive/2009/12/17/vancouver-city-council-to-approve-regulated-mma-thursday-morning.aspx

Injury stats in MMA (could not find a current one):
www.mmamania.com/2008/04/16/mma-injuries-report-a-five-year-review-2002-2007/

Most dangerous sports in the world (I would not have guessed #5):
listverse.com/2009/06/18/top-10-incredibly-dangerous-sports/

 

[TimBit]

These sessions left a fowl taste for PT in some who were then subsequently promoted

What's wrong with that? I love duck and goose.

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

P.s.: it's foul

 

[REDinstaller]

Well hopefully once the deployments to TFA cease the Army can begin to become competitive in regional sports again. I know it would be a welcome outlet.