Sports in the CF, or rather lack thereof.

[Jarnhamar]

"We can hardly get soldiers deploying onto ranges to do shooting. "

Really??? How can you not want to shoot things?!?! (As you can see I come from the country lol...)

It's not for lack of desire but heavily booked training areas. OR, your platoon booked a range a month in advance and on the day you drive out to the range you have to turn around because someone else with a bigger stick bumped you off.

I'm curious as to how I chose to have my knees hurt that bad...or how I chose what the CSM decides for PT....

I mean you choose to be in the military that's all.  If someone doesn't like doing PT they can quit, or try and change the routine.
I'm with you that running every day, day after day can suck. It's boring and it doesn't keep soldiers interested and motivated.  Don't you get the option of platoon or section PT?  I've sene truckers switch between running, crossfit, going to the gym and doing BJJ.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

I don't hate PT. I just think there are FAR better ways of conducting PT then just running (from someone who's been in the fitness/exercise industry for close to 10yrs, not just a punk)

Also goes back to troop morale, i'd say the majority (at least 3/4) of my platoon would be a lot happier and probably in better shape if the PT/Training was approached more long term, and intelligently, with some variety and forethought as to the development and periodization of the training. Training the various aspects of fitness, because in general the military trains very little in terms of strength, flexibility, balance, etc, its mostly running, we could do endurance work in the pool, and many other places, and reap more benefits with less disadvantages (i.e how many people have bad knees or ankles from all the running they did through the CF)  also the pool for example would be a total body workout, and also an added skill, since some people don't even know how to swim.

The way PT is done now is, meh lets go for a run, basically people just think of tomorrow...whereas we should be thinking of training for months down the line. 

 

[REDinstaller]

And what are you doing to change this within your platoon? I does no good to gripe if you don't have a plan prepared for enabling change. Have you talked with your sect comd? If you can sell him a plan, with the benefits and detractions. Then he can sell it at the platoon lvl, and then Coy lvl.

 

[Task]

The state of our military will just not support that type of program/mentality. We need to fix other problems first. (MIR commandos, people exempt from PT

The states can pull it off because right from day 1 in boot camp physical fitness is paramopunt. They can kick you out for being out of shape pretty easily down there.

I disagree. If you fix the mentality you will fix the MIR situation, at least in part. Our military can and does support that mentality at the (some) unit(s) level.

While MIR commandos will always exist, having an aggressive no fail culture will reduce it. Either through the mentality change or through the reduction of those "type" of members in the CF.

The States also went through the same weight issues as us, particularly in their Air Force (circa 2002). But as you indicated started at the roots and curbed the culture back to a warrior ethos. It took many years, and there are still issues, but it was(is) effective.

This was the start:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20000701/ai_n9974428/

The Air Force chief of staff, Gen. Michael Ryan, ordered the changes in May for a few reasons: a Department of Defense order for all the services to test for strength, flexibility and aerobic capacity; recent findings showing that 20 percent of Air Force members are overweight; and the Air Force moving to become a more mobile force.


Now is the time to implement these ideals as our recruitment is at it's peak and will have the largest audience for the future. With large numbers of fresh minds entering it is up to us to impress upon them the importance of physical fitness.

All this being said I do not support the traditional forced PT. Which brings me back to the forum topic. IMO many, many sports and athletic options need to be available to create the internal motivation(personally decided) , incorporated with scheduled core training (unit decided) that allows for greater performance in your chosen field. With an annual test with true repercussions (CF decided).

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

And what are you doing to change this within your platoon? I does no good to gripe if you don't have a plan prepared for enabling change. Have you talked with your sect comd? If you can sell him a plan, with the benefits and detractions. Then he can sell it at the platoon lvl, and then Coy lvl.

Last time I checked Cpl's don't tell Lt's what to do.  Its hard to sell to the military in general that their PT system is horrible, when :
1. Lot of the higher ups are old crusty guys who were forced to run and bash their knees, so they want the next generation to do it too.
2. Your CSM has a love affair with marathons.
3. the pointy ended units seem to get precedence in booking training environments (gym, field house, obstacle course, army fitness centre, etc).
4. Most people try to avoid PT and coast by on minimums, hell until last week I hadn't seen anyone above Sgt do PT at my unit.
5. Some people just don't want to put in the time and effort to book gyms, spaces, etc because it takes more time and effort and forethought then saying ah well F it...lets go for a run.

I would certainly be up to the task of putting together a periodized training program for 3-4 months, for my superiors to look at it, study it, maybe trial it, and actually give it some thought, if I thought there's was a snowballs chance in hell of the higher ups actually looking at it, and truly considering it.

Hell i'd be happy if we just switched over to Crossfit as THE CF pt system.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I disagree. If you fix the mentality you will fix the MIR situation, at least in part. Our military can and does support that mentality at the (some) unit(s) level.

I agree we need to fix the mentality, so how?  We can throw around catchy phrases like Warrior first! or Rifleman first!, but it's hollow.  The same with the way "train as you fight" is.  You're in the infantry and you've been in a long time, you know as well as I do how far that "train as you fight" crap goes.  It's Train as you fight, except when you're on the range, or under this that or the other circumstance. Oh and also under this clause.... 
I remember sleeping in my body armor, tacvest, helmet BEWs and gloves on- inside an administrative hide for a week or two because the CSM wanted us to train how we fight and he was told that's what they were doing in the FOBs overseas. Sleeping in tents in full FFO, in 2009.
Going off on a tangent there sorry. 

While MIR commandos will always exist, having an aggressive no fail culture will reduce it. Either through the mentality change or through the reduction of those "type" of members in the CF.

Right. And before we can cultivate that culture we need to remove all the things that allow people to get away with milking the system. You're talking about throwing people in a pool and say sink or swim, yes? 
Right now it would be like throwing people in a pool telling them to sink or swim but having life vests beside them-and not really being able to punish them for grabbing the vest and  cheating - everybody passes!

The States also went through the same weight issues as us, particularly in their Air Force (circa 2002). But as you indicated started at the roots and curbed the culture back to a warrior ethos. It took many years, and there are still issues, but it was(is) effective.

They do have a hardcore warrior ethos don't they? Overseas you ask a Canadian cpl in KAF for help and they'll say sorry it's 415, I finished at 4 and I'm going for supper. 
You ask an American sergeant major or Chief for something (work related of courses)  and they jump to help you.  Woe to one of his soldiers who doesn't give 110% trying to help out.

Now is the time to implement these ideals as our recruitment is at it's peak and will have the largest audience for the future. With large numbers of fresh minds entering it is up to us to impress upon them the importance of physical fitness.

Agree.  Joining the CF should be a competition. Our goal shouldn't be a reflection of  races and genders in society, numbers and stats. It should be the smartest and fastest.

All this being said I do not support the traditional forced PT. Which brings me back to the forum topic. IMO many, many sports and athletic options need to be available to create the internal motivation(personally decided) , incorporated with scheduled core training (unit decided) that allows for greater performance in your chosen field. With an annual test with true repercussions (CF decided).

I was surprised by the number of guys in the infantry battalion that would manage to find ways of skipping PT. They'd stay in bed or sit in the shacks and play video games.  We're not in a position to trust the average soldier to keep their PT up.

Personally I can't stand sports and mandatory sports are even worse.  People just aren't that interested in sports anymore, their lives are too busy.  I find forcing soldiers to play sports is like forcing them to goto the mess.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Last time I checked Cpl's don't tell Lt's what to do.  Its hard to sell to the military in general that their PT system is horrible, when : ....

So put some effort into it and make your case here.

Get past the complaining stage and make yourself heard using the existing system.  That's what these Corporals did.

 

[REDinstaller]

So put some effort into it and make your case here.

Get past the complaining stage and make yourself heard using the existing system.  That's what these Corporals did.

A very good example of how Cpls can influence doctrine and training. It might not become evident right a way, but with some perseverance, much can be accomplished.

 

[Nostix]

Although we can certainly hope that "Drawing straws" to determine which elements of the Navy to keep and which to sell never makes it into official policy.

;D

 

[REDinstaller]

What does that have to do with Sports in the CF? ???

 

[Nostix]

We should reduce the number of frigates to six, with three on each coast.
To figure out which ones are paid-off and sold (make more money), we should take the mayor of each ship’s namesake city and let them draw straws.
Whoever gets the six longest ones are the ships we keep.

From the paper posted above as an example of Cpl's making themselves heard.

 

[REDinstaller]

Their paper was an example for Biggoals2bedone of how Cpls have an ability to influence their situations by putting solutions on paper and sending them up the chain. Instead of just bellyaching about how something is wrong, and doing nothing about it.

 

[Michael OLeary]

From the paper posted above as an example of Cpl's making themselves heard.

The point was that they got their opinions out in front of the Army and read by many influential people, are you suggesting that one small excerpt invalidates the process and the opportunity?

 

[Nostix]

Nothing in my amused, offhand response would seem to give that impression, so no.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Nothing in my amused, offhand response would seem to give that impression, so no.

My apologies, I thought you might have been trying to make a point with relevance to the ongoing discussion. But since you offered no context, I was left to ask what you meant.

 

[armychick2009]

I don't think that it's just fitness in the CF that is an issue but fitness overall in Canadian society. I don't know really yet what PT is like in the forces yet but - I've got a pretty good idea based on my ex-husband's stories, my brothers, my cousins, my friends... but, I'd like to share this story from last year....

I was working in a class of 28 grade 7's, mostly between the ages of 12 and 16. I had to teach them all subjects, including gym.  After the first two weeks of them playing Dr. Murder Ball (AKA, dodge Ball), I decided enough was enough. (I was a mid-school year replacement teacher)....

One day I had set out a circuit, a simple one. Do 5 sit-ups, 5 push-ups, 5 burpees.... and a few other things.

No one would do any of the sit-ups, push-ups or burpees. No one KNEW what a burpee was. Only one person knew what a sit-up was... and NO ONE would (or could) do a push-up.

It took me three days of pushing the SAME lesson to get them to even TRY a sit-up.... it was like pulling teeth.  And, it took two whole weeks of doing this every other day, before I could even get ANYONE to finish them. (They were allowed to do half-push-ups...)

Fitness is NOT a priority with kids, at all. To give you an idea, I had multiple kids have outbursts of anger and frustration... three suspensions in that whole effort. Most were too shy of their weight to even try them, because only three or four of those kids in the entire class were even close to a healthy level of weight.


By the end, I told them where I was joining and was able to get some of the girls interested in doing some of the workouts based on that. "A girl soldier? Really? Coooool."


Remember, these kids are only three to five years off from being eligible to join the forces! Our whole society needs a big change-up.

 

[REDinstaller]

Burpees....ewwww. I hate them with a passion, almost as much as mountain climbers. But you a right, todays kids are wired for sound. Too many electronic gadgets preventing them from doing what I did as a kid, explore the world outside my windows.

 

[Task]

I agree we need to fix the mentality, so how?

Hmmm good point. For me personally I have always been concerned (meddled) with my peers and subordinates impression of PT. I have limited myself from changing the bigger picture, where now with little time left I wonder should I have.
That said to implement cultural change of this nature has to be done at least at Unit level. Any lower will only last as long as a rotation.

To change:

1) Create a sense of urgency.

2) Select change agents (People who are highly motivated for the cause);
- Ensure they have more resources than people opposed to the change and make it obvious (favouritism) follow these people and be rewarded.

3) Ownership. Get input from all subordinates and implement their ideas (with your guidance to the goal) so that the "change" is their idea. (important grass roots)

4) Be clear on what the end state is <vision>.

5) Create success stories and heroes for people to emulate (there must be history for culture to exist).

6) Fire, replace leaders in key positions who are opposed. (This one is touchy ) 

Right. And before we can cultivate that culture we need to remove all the things that allow people to get away with milking the system. You're talking about throwing people in a pool and say sink or swim, yes? 

Yup, but unfortunately those procedures are way out of my arcs. So in essence it is what I want but I am not sure how to tackle that.

Agree.  Joining the CF should be a competition. Our goal shouldn't be a reflection of  races and genders in society, numbers and stats. It should be the smartest and fastest.

Agreed.

I was surprised by the number of guys in the infantry battalion that would manage to find ways of skipping PT. They'd stay in bed or sit in the shacks and play video games.  We're not in a position to trust the average soldier to keep their PT up.

I've used a motivational message that has worked well for me. For the fit guy: "Do you see that guy there <point to motivated soldier>. He is working his butt off so that he can be his best when the poo hits the fan and be there for his team. When he looks at you, not trying because you are fit already, do you think he trusts you won't quit on him then when you won't try now?

For the not fit guy "Do you want to be that guy? The one who can't keep up and gets his friends killed."

With Afghanistan so prevalent people realize that it's the truth. It hits home pretty quick.

During my basic my section commander was from CAR (can't for the life of me remember his name). He impressed upon me like no other has to this day. Every night he would tuck us in with "get ready!" and end with "jab!". We would scream an edited "warrior" version of 23rd Psalm. Everything we did he did first. He was (is) the ideal change agent. We all had someone in our training that was that guy. It is up to all of us to aspire to be him/her and to inspire others to follow.

Sorry for the sermon.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Last time I checked Cpl's don't tell Lt's what to do.  Its hard to sell to the military in general that their PT system is horrible, when :
1. Lot of the higher ups are old crusty guys who were forced to run and bash their knees, so they want the next generation to do it too.
2. Your CSM has a love affair with marathons.
3. the pointy ended units seem to get precedence in booking training environments (gym, field house, obstacle course, army fitness centre, etc).
4. Most people try to avoid PT and coast by on minimums, hell until last week I hadn't seen anyone above Sgt do PT at my unit.
5. Some people just don't want to put in the time and effort to book gyms, spaces, etc because it takes more time and effort and forethought then saying ah well F it...lets go for a run.

I would certainly be up to the task of putting together a periodized training program for 3-4 months, for my superiors to look at it, study it, maybe trial it, and actually give it some thought, if I thought there's was a snowballs chance in hell of the higher ups actually looking at it, and truly considering it.

Hell i'd be happy if we just switched over to Crossfit as THE CF pt system.

Sounds like a massive amount of blame shifting, appeasment and an lack of determination to me.

As has been stated by those that have been detoxed from Crossfit, it ain't all that and shit, tied into a bow. You're simply trading one brainwashed regime for another.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

You can call it whatever you want, its the reality of the situation, i've brought it up to the LT, in a smart thought out way, and she didn't quite shoot me down, but it was kind of like, ok leave me alone i'll take care of it and do what i want.

Crossfit is a sound base for training, if you drink the kool-aid so to speak as many do, then no you're not better off, i'm not saying to act like mindless crossfit zombies.

The training methodology is sound, but does need tweeking.