Soldier Body Armour - FPV, BRP, shoulder pads & throat protectors (Merged Thread)

[KevinB]

keep in mind those of us with Merx account can go in and look at what the gov't is asking for 

 

[armyvern]

Some people also do contracting & purchasing...

Frag Protective Vest

Para 1.2.1: Protection given

Para 4.3: (Ref'd in defense of HorM removing his shoulder pads)...

Under the heading of "Dress:"

4.3. The FPV shoulder pads may be removed.


It's also ref'd in this doc that this item did not go to the lowest bidder but was based on PVC (Performance Value Contract) which is defined as "the best technical performance per Unit cost."

 

[Farmboy]

Tender for 3L Bladders and Carrier out today.
Lowest bidder.
Oh and it must be the exact style that DND has already purchased, which kinda limits your bidders as well.

but was based on PVC (Performance Value Contract) which is defined as "the best technical performance per Unit cost

I've seen a few of these for LE agencies and basically you get points for the products performance between the min and max specs written (yes they do put in max specs).  So even if your product out performs a product meeting the technical requirments, it does not get bonus points, nor is there a way to evaluate this as a cost per unit.  Your product also has the meet the "entry" specs, which means it can be written for a specific material and if your product is not that material it does not get into the trials, even if it's better.


Basically with large DND purchases there is no way of getting a bunch of companies to send in a product you want/need, trial it, and then pick the best for the job.  Yes I know some "units" are exceptions to this.

 

[KevinB]

I'd also like to point out that very few independant armour companies exist -- Armour Holdings just buys them up.
All the Cdn body armour and ceramic plate manufacturers where swallowed into one entity in the early 90's  -- by a partnership of people (in MGen Mackenzie) and then sold/boughtout by AH.

I'm not a techno geek on armour (but have an invested interest in following it) both lightfighter and professionalsoldiers have SME's in that field that have posted some invalubale info on both plates and soft armor

 

[Farmboy]

Global Armour which supplies my company is one of the few not attached to Armour Holdings. (thank god)

Armour Holdings goes through R Nicholls which..................  Sorry almost got carried away again.

 

[McG]

with large DND purchases there is no way of getting a bunch of companies to send in a product you want/need, trial it, and then pick the best for the job.  Yes I know some "units" are exceptions to this.

I've seen it being done with goggles undergoing ballistic testing.  We've all seen trials with boots.  It is very easy when introducing a new item of kit to ensure trails & tests are done.  It is also possible to make a selection based on seller's specs & make the agreement conditional on the item passing a trial. 

. . . and there are things for which lowest cost does make sense: paper, staplers, 2 inch nails, etc.

The CF buys the cheapest available kit for use, not the best. 

You still have not shown this to be a universal truth despite continuing to argue it.  I have shown "cheapest available" not to have applied in the selection of our armour.

The upgrade to the C7A2 was given a budget of $500.00 per rifle, hence the most inexpensive upgrade was done..not the best. The RG31 was purchased despite several known issues with the electric system, especially when the RWS was added resulting in vehs being removed from combat..once again the cheapest system not the best..the Bolle Desert boot is totally inadequate for the task, a great deal of discussion was generated here on the very same subject....cheapest, not the best.. TCCC bags made by a local rigger, not a dedicated manufacturer, which are inadequate to the task and have been discarded by all who were issued them...cheapest, not the best.I could go on through the catalog of items but you get the point, the system new or old is flawed and borderline incompetent.

These are examples of bad kit, but not cheapest available.  The RG-31 was a sole-source procurement; somebody in the Army decided we needed the RG-31 & we bought it.  However, we may have paid a premium compared to other options that might have been chosen.  I suspect, given our relation with Diemaco/Colt Canada, that the C7A2 was another sole-source endeavour.  There is no proof here of a universal adherence to lowest cost compliant.  You’ve constructed the lie in your head that every bad piece of kit was also the cheapest cost.  You’ve also fooled yourself into thinking that we only buy the cheapest & worst pieces of kit.

The Librarian & I have both stated we know the procurement system to have its flaws.  However, you are wrong in your assertion that the CF always by the cheapest.  Therefore, it is faulty logic to extend your premise to conclude the FPV is the cheapest & worst. 

You know some of us actually may know what we are talking about here.

I know, but you strayed out of your lane into procurement & you don't seem to know what you are talking about there.  I'm certain you know kit, but argue kit based on the kit's merits.  Don't be weaving anecdotes that the procurement system is bad and therefore all kit is bad.  If you do feel the need to continue an attempt to prove that everything is purchased based on lowest cost, you might want to do some background reading first: 
http://contractscanada.gc.ca/en/biddin-e.htm#10

AS for the protection level being decreased yes it is a fact

Thanks.

 

[KevinB]

The LCMM sent a tech note out via a CANFORGEN about the C7A2 upgrade being a POS (well not his words - his where "being contrained by budget".)

Not everything in the CF goes to the lowest bidder - sometimes it goes to the shadiest distributor, political payoffs etc. 

Part of the problems is a lot of different ideas goes into kit -- and unfortunately for the pointy end of the spear -- the CF insists on getting a lot of kit that is "universal"

 

[Farmboy]

You’ve constructed the lie in your head that every bad piece of kit was also the cheapest cost.  You’ve also fooled yourself into thinking that we only buy the cheapest & worst pieces of kit.

I've shown this is true, do mine not count?

I've seen it being done with goggles undergoing ballistic testing.  We've all seen trials with boots.

How many different types of boots and glasses were tested?  Why did we not end up with the best?

Why the need for a trial if it's already been proven in combat or has NIJ ratings etc.  The LE agencies don't test the plates and helmets that I sell them, they go by the fact that it's already NIJ tested.

 

[McG]

I've shown this is true, do mine not count?

You have shown that lowest cost compliant exists (which I have not denied) but you've not shown that it is the only way.  Here are three items which prove that lowest cost compliant is not the only way.

VIDEO MOTION TRACKING SYSTEM Trade Agreement: NAFTA/AIT Tendering Procedures: All interested suppliers may submit a bid Attachment: None Competitive Procurement Strategy: Best Overall Proposal

CC115 BUFFALO Trade Agreement: Agreement on Internal Trade (AIT) Tendering Procedures: All interested suppliers may submit a bid Attachment: None Competitive Procurement Strategy: Best Overall Proposal Nature of Requirements: Spare Parts for the CC115 BUFFALO

R&O Mast Kit, telescopic Trade Agreement: Agreement on Internal Trade (AIT) Tendering Procedures: Attachment: None Competitive Procurement Strategy: Best Overall Proposal

How many different types of boots and glasses were tested?  Why did we not end up with the best?

Well, I don’t know about boots (it has been years since I’ve seen guys newly trialing a pair) but I hear they are now getting into the system.  The eyewear I saw tested was not glasses.  It was goggles that would be MNVG compatible.  Don’t know when we will be seeing them.

Why the need for a trial if it's already been proven in combat or has NIJ ratings etc.  The LE agencies don't test the plates and helmets that I sell them, they go by the fact that it's already NIJ tested.

There are a number of reasons.  The requirements of the Canadian Army differ from those of a law enforcement agency, and they differ from those of other nations' armies.  We’ve bought eqpt on the notion that it was good enough for the US only to find that it fell apart in Canadian winter.  We should also be careful not to assume that used in combat means it is good.  Another element is that certain armours had been very well designed to pass standardized testing, but did not hold-up once exposed to a broader threat spectrum. 

 

[KevinB]

I will agree with MCG wrt the armour and the fact that having a NIJ is not necessarily a meaning it will sucessfully work within an Army environment -- since LE do not have a fragment or blast requirement -- thus the V50 ratings testing etc.

 

[Brockvegas]

Hey guys, been a while since I posted. I've been on course for most of the last 6 mnths. Does anybody know if there are MOLLE/PALS plate carriers available that will also take the ballistic panels from the issued frag? It'd be nice to combine two peices of kit into one easy on/easy off system for tour. Any ideas would be appreciated.

 

[dangerboy]

Be advised even if you do find a system that fits CF plates the chances of your C of C letting you use it instead of the issued Flack Jacket are slim to none.  Wearing non-issued boots is one thing but protective gear is a whole other mater.

 

[Brockvegas]

Yeah, I'm just looking around to see if it's out there before I even send the question up.

 

[Love793]

Your best bet would be to talk to a Mat Tech, but then you'll probably be buying your Frag Vest after words.

 

[Eric_911]

+1. Not many CoC's that'll support the modification of your PPE in any way.

But to answer your question: A commercially available armor carrier which will accept Canadian ballistic inserts is Unlikely.  There's something like 15-17 different sizes of vests available, all with different inserts.

I dont believe it would be financially lucrative enough for any company to go into production for this specific pattern of insert. (Unless they were awarded a Gov contract)

On the mat tech / rigger / custom made front: be careful. Placement of the BRP and the ballistic inserts is crucial. This is why you're sized at clothing stores by pers who have been trained to properly size the vest.

Cheers,
Eric

 

[RHFC_piper]

Some have resorted to having MOLLE/PALs sewn onto the existing Ballistic Vest... but I would advise reading some of the posts here regarding the downsides to having a MOLLE BV; specifically the necessity to remove load bearing gear occasionally without removing the BV itself... but there are quite a few other topics on here covering that.

 

[Brockvegas]

Thanks for all the help guys. After thinking about it, you're right, there are actually quite a few times that I need to drop my vest but keep the frag on. I'll probably end up going with a modular plate carrier with the frag underneath. Cheers.

 

[HItorMiss]

Brock

Looking at your profile I am going to make the assumption you are with 1 RCR. Having spent the vast majority of my career there I have come to know one clear thing. YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED  I say again WILL NOT BE ALLOWED to not wear the issued PPE. That means you will wear the CF issue Frag vest with the plates inside. People had a hard enough time on previous tours wearing non issued CSA rated ballistic glasses (Oakley's, ESS etc etc) And on tours before that it was a fight to wear non issue gloves. Granted the BN has come a long way but it will never come far enough as to allow you to wear your own civi bought PPE rig. Yes I know you plan to wear the issue inserts and the issue plates but sadly the carrier is what is going to matter.

Hate to burst you bubble my friend but you would be better off looking at chest rigs and webbing off the private market that you might have a chance to wear.

 

[Eric_911]

Thanks for all the help guys. After thinking about it, you're right, there are actually quite a few times that I need to drop my vest but keep the frag on. I'll probably end up going with a modular plate carrier with the frag underneath. Cheers.

Ummm... you'll never be in a situation over there where you'll be required to wear the FPV without plates, so getting a modular plate carrier pretty useless, since you will be required to wear the plates inside your FPV.

And since most plate carriers (the Wasatch for example) don't ride properly without plates inside, you might as well just go with a plane-jane modular vest or chest rig, or maybe something with fixed pouches.

Cheers,
Eric

 

[RetiredRoyal]

So, are these Frag Vests the best body armour available to our troops or simply a product produced in canada by the lowest bidder?