Soldier Body Armour - FPV, BRP, shoulder pads & throat protectors (Merged Thread)

[brihard]

So, are these Frag Vests the best body armour available to our troops or simply a product produced in canada by the lowest bidder?

They work, and fairly well it seems. More than one soldier has taken an AK round center of the chest and been knocked over, only to get back up (slightly more pissed off) and continue returning fire.

I'm unqualified to say whether they're the absolute best on the market, but if there were any glaring deficiencies I'm sure they'd have come under scrutiny by now.

 

[McG]

So, are these Frag Vests the best body armour available to our troops or simply a product produced in canada by the lowest bidder?

If you are not going to read the thread, don't waste our time posting in it.  It has already been made clear that the current armour was not the result of a lowest cost compliant competition.

 

[KevinB]

So, are these Frag Vests the best body armour available to our troops or simply a product produced in canada by the lowest bidder?

The best is relative.

I'm not the biggest fan of the FPV or the Plates, but they do perform.
I don't like the cut, the curve or the weight of the plate, nor some other aspects I won't dicsuss here.

 

 

[brihard]

This is as good a place to ask this as any. My chances of getting issued training plates are about nil, so has anyone got some experience as to an expedient way to fake a couple up to simulate the approximate weight of the loaded vest? As much as I have a lazy streak in me, I'd rather continue to train using the vest and the appropriate weight thereof. Where I am, I've got a snowball's chance in hell of getting training plates through the system. Surely someone here has seen or used something that would work?

 

[KevinB]

Steel plate -- does not need to be AR500 or anything - but chop some to size, and gun tape the corners so it does not fubar the vest.

 

[brihard]

Steel plate -- does not need to be AR500 or anything - but chop some to size, and gun tape the corners so it does not fubar the vest.

Duh. Stupidly simple. Any idea of the curve to the plate is all that necessary to maintain comfort while wearing it?

 

[George Wallace]

Steel plate -- does not need to be AR500 or anything - but chop some to size, and gun tape the corners so it does not fubar the vest.

We did a similar thing to replicate loaded magazines, to put in our Tac Vests for BFT Trg.  You just need the proper dimensions and know someone who will cut the metal.

 

[MedCorps]

This is a timely topic, as I just spent a good portion of my day dealing with post attack personal kit analysis and effectiveness briefings. I even had the chance to fire a few rounds at some CF PPE, which was an educative process.

As you may (or may not, as  I work in the system but had not idea at the dearth of our PPE epidemiological program) be aware that every time a CF member in Afghanistan is a "trauma casualty" his (or her) personal kit is examined by a Nursing Officer and/or Bioscience Officer for effectiveness and logging the post-attack results into the database(s).

If there is evidence of any sort of penetration (good or bad outcome), failure, and/or non-issued kit being used it may be (based on criteria) forwarded to DRDC for post-attack human factors and engineering analysis.  Interesting stuff is coming out of this work...  two notables for public consumption.

There still are CF members wearing and being injured / killed non-issued PPE.  Some of which works very well, and some of which does not work so well. I was somewhat surprised to see non-issued PPE being used to the extent it is being used overseas (which is still in terms of whole sample size very small). The "man" is watching and the CoC is aware that non-issued PPE is being used overseas. 

The surveillance of kit failure is so methodologically sensitive that we even watch for statistically significant sizing irregularities from point of issue to determine if a particular geographic QM mis-sized PPE for a group of casualties. Also watched is PPE usage compliance rates by unit, type of operation, weather and a bunch of other demographic and non-demographic factors.   

Rest assured if something is not working, the CFHS is watching and it will be corrected in short order. Note the continuing progress being made in the issued PPE.  We need to stay one (or two) steps ahead of the enemy. Lots of high-paid, pointy-head, science types doing this work in real-time behind the scenes to keep the warfighter safe.

It was an interesting day to say the least...

Cheers,

MC 

 

[rw4th]

This is as good a place to ask this as any. My chances of getting issued training plates are about nil, so has anyone got some experience as to an expedient way to fake a couple up to simulate the approximate weight of the loaded vest? As much as I have a lazy streak in me, I'd rather continue to train using the vest and the appropriate weight thereof. Where I am, I've got a snowball's chance in hell of getting training plates through the system. Surely someone here has seen or used something that would work?

I've seen "airsoft" replicata plates that are made of plastic, are hollow, and can be filled with sand to simulate weight. No clue where I saw them though.

 

[medaid]

Search for TOYSOLDIER replica plates.

Also search lightfighter. There was a good post there.

 

[The Bread Guy]

From the keeners at Defence Research & Development Canada (102 page .pdf)....

Abstract:

A fit and confirmatory design trial was conducted at Canadian Forces Base Petawawa May 28 to June 1 2007 to evaluate the differences between the current shoulder cap and brassard shoulder fragmentation protection designs. Twenty-five regular force personnel from 3rd Royal Canadian Regiment and 2nd Field Ambulance were required to undertake a battery of human factors tests while wearing the current shoulder cap and brassard conditions in a balanced, repeated measures design. A progressive four-day testing protocol was used, from static anthropometric measurements, to live fire, to dynamic discrete military activities tests, and finally dynamic military battle task tests. Evaluations included live fire range, obstacle course, mounted fighting task, dismounted fire and movement, FIBUA, and compatibility testing. Participants rated the designs in terms of manoeuvrability, ease, stability, compatibility, and comfort. Data collection included live fire target performance, acceptability ratings after each task, thermal discomfort ratings, physical discomfort ratings, fit sizing ratings, exit questionnaire acceptability ratings, and guided focus group discussions. Overall, no highly meaningful significant differences between the two conditions were seen in target engagement performance, compatibility, or task acceptability ratings for different tasks carried out in this trial. It is recommended that brassard should be implemented for improved shoulder fragmentation protection. Design improvements to the brassard design are discussed in the report.

 

[Canadian Mind]

Good to see. Just hope the guys in charge don't balk at the slight thermal and comfort deficiencies, which can be addressed.

Any word on research into a different collar setup for the vest? I personally find the current split design to be inefficient for the following reasons:

- Not enough protection, especially to the front and most sensitive areas of the neck

- When in the prone position, collars will push on back of my helmet, causing it to ride forward and obscure my vision.

- When applying FFO, it is hard to prevent the collars from getting caught under the shoulder, and most my peers don't bother making sure the collars are upright when applying the tac vest. In a normal everyday situation this could be attributed to laziness, but at times when rapidly applying FFO, getting the gear on is more important than making sure everything is 100%. But this causes two problems: Reduced protection, and over time an untucked collar will cause painfull pressure points, especially while on a ruckmarch or firing in the prone.


What I'd suggest to fix this problem would be a one-piece, neck-hugging, mandarin-like collar design with a split front. A second smaller piece of varying sizes could be wrapped around the front and attached via clips or buttons (better than the buttons currently on the FPV) to protect the throat area of the neck. Size would be to the comfort preference of the soldier wearing it, with not wearing it at all being one of the acceptable options available.

Benefits to this design would be increased protection and a lack of interference with other PPE, such as causing the helmet to ride forward or getting caught under the shoulder straps.

My personal experience with the FPV is pretty limited, being a couple small field exes in Petawawa, 6 weeks in Suffield, and IBTS. So while these are my 2 cents, I'll leave it to more experienced members to shoot down my ideas and reasonings for them should they disagree with them.



My only other gripe is that the back plate causes pressure points on the bottom tip of my shoulder blades, but that can't be helped.

 

[PuckChaser]

After wearing the vest for 7 months.... I would have really loved the brassard kevlar vice the buckle shoulder piece. There's really no point in a shoulder pad that comes apart with simple movements, especially just climbing into a Bison. I can't imagine what the pointy end had to deal with.

For the collar, I didn't notice the split collar getting in the way too much, it didn't get into the way while wearing a helmet and vehicle headset. My vest arid cover was fairly worked in, and if you play with the pads inside around the neck part, it works itself into a comfortable position so that it doesn't get in the way, or moves quickly.

 

[Canadian Mind]

I have no problem with the collar during vehicle operation, my vice with it as far as interfering with performance while training, specifically on ranges. Before I was issued the thing on m basic training and DP1, my accurracy with the C-7 and C-9 were much higher when I didn't have the thing on. Hard to shoot within a given timeframe when the vest keeps pushing the front edge of the helmet down my nose everytime I go prone.

I have noticed that after time the vest seems to break in. It used to be a pain in the ass to get it on right, now it just seems to fal into place every time I put it on.

 

[MAC-]

I am currently deployed on TF 3-10 and my group of guys is having difficulty with the new shoulder pads and throat protector. It is now mandatory PPE. Now I don't want to seem like I'm bitching but I hate it as well.

We are writing an extended memo trying to explain that the PPE does not allow for full range of movement necessary for combat. As well as the added protection (which the U.S. Army has now gotten rid of) has not changed any stats as far as battle related injuries. I have read an article by the U.S. medical system showing these stats but I am having trouble finding information at my SP. We rarely go back to KAF.

I have a few articles already showing that the increase of kit weight has significantly risen the number of NBI and sports injuries. The recommended weight for kit per soldier is 50lbs. At the moment my group is carrying 90 lbs of kit on average. I know this isn't alot compared to the older rotos.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[kincanucks]

I agree with you with regards to the throat protector since it is damn near impossible to get it in the right position to actually provide any protection.  The shoulders are absolutely necessary and while they caused frustration when putting on your tac vest they do provide added protection.  I am not sure where you are getting the increased weight issue from though, the shoulder pads and throat protector are not that heavy.  Cheers from TFK 5-10.

 

[Timmy!]

I'm currently using the new pieces with no problems. Just a pain in the butt putting it together.  ;D

Regards,
TN2IC

 

[MAC-]

Im looking  for stats not personal opinions on the kit, some like it, I do not.

The weight issue is not from the shoulder pads or throat protector its in general. More weight and attachments does not mean more protection.

From what I have seen, the throat protector is incorrectly mounted on most people's vest and just becomes an annoying flap that gets in the way.

We finally have a mod chest rig system that WORKS, is comfortable and does not have to be the same as everyone else, why continue with improved kit.

As for the shoulder pads, I understand there was an incident that sparked the use of them. But there is nothing to say that shoulder pads would of prevented that incident. There are design flaws to all armour, but why not get the best and lightest PPE available not matter the cost.

I am not an expert on PPE but I know there's alternatives and despite being told that we have the best PPE available to us, we are seeing record injuries and deaths.

 

[PuckChaser]

The American body armour system is different from ours. Why would you want to cite their statistics to prove your point? Since this is an open forum, I really a doubt a discussion and specifics on why our PPE is good/bad is conductive to keeping troops safe, regardless of the system.

You're not an expert on PPE, but the scientists that are testing our stuff probably are, and deem it safe to use. What's your alternative? Dragonskin????  :

 

[ArmyGuy99]

MAC-

We had a guy on our tour (I won't say which to protect his ID) who was wounded severely in the upper arm/shoulder by shrapnel and was evacuated home.  The Bio-science officer determined that had he been wearing the new Arm Brassard (Supply refused to issue it to him) he would only have had minor injuries and possibly could have finished his tour.

I know that this piece of kit is annoying and cumbersome.  Personally I don't like it either, but IT DOES offer increased protection and there is a reason for it.  Does it need to be refined? Most definatley it does.  So write your complaints down, had it over to your Med Tech and they can pass it on to the Bio-Science Officer.  Send it up your CoC command as well.  Just make sure it's constructive and not just, "We don't like it".  Nothing is likely to change on your tour, but possibly subsequent tours will end up with better kit.

As for the Neck guard.  I didn't wear one so I can't complain about it, but I know everyone who I worked with that did, didn't like it either.