Religious Discussion

[a_majoor]

I like the Fagels translation as well, but my favorite is the translations by WHD Rouse, who also uses a prose rather than a poetic translation. The opening of the Odyssey by Rouse sums the theam up in one line: "This is the story of a man who was never at a loss..."

 

[combat_medic]

How the heck did we go from the Bible to Beowulf?

Anyway, I'm definitely in agreement with Zartan - belief and prayer is just lip service unless you're willing to back it up with your actions. There are plenty of supposed Christians out there who cheat on their wives, beat their children, lie on their taxes, drink/gamble/drug to excess, and are generally bad people. I was watching a show the other day where it was found out that this little southern town's pastor - the most sanctimonious b@stard that ever walked the earth, apparently - was recently found out to have molested his three children every day for nearly 15 years. This man would tell people that they would go to hell for masturbating, or having lustful thoughts about someone, and then we would go home and rape his 5 year old daughter. AND, he still thought that he was a good person, and would go to heaven, because he was "God's servant" and was beyond reproach. (I hope there's a special corner of hell with a "reserved" sign waiting for him).

 

[winchable]

Highlighting a good point I feel, too often people are not sincere in their beliefs. How often do you find people in any religion, going through the motions because perhaps they've forgotten what it's all really about. Sincerity is extremely important in religion because so much of it is based on that word "faith", faith in other peoples faith, faith in the almighty, faith in fate, since it's easy enough to fake it for temporal purposes but you're bound to get caught by the big guy.(SWT)

As for that special corner of hell, Dante reserved the lowest level of hell for hypocrites and traitors, I think perhaps that pastor may well find himself hanging out with Brutus, Cassius, Judas and a 3 headed fallen angel.....of course he also put my peoples prophet in one of the other levels but apart from that he was making a good point about peoples lip service and their actions with regards to their professed faith.

 

[Guardian]

... belief and prayer is just lip service unless you're willing to back it up with your actions. There are plenty of supposed Christians out there who cheat on their wives, beat their children, lie on their taxes, drink/gamble/drug to excess, and are generally bad people. I was watching a show the other day where it was found out that this little southern town's pastor - the most sanctimonious b@stard that ever walked the earth, apparently - was recently found out to have molested his three children every day for nearly 15 years. This man would tell people that they would go to heck for masturbating, or having lustful thoughts about someone, and then we would go home and rape his 5 year old daughter. AND, he still thought that he was a good person, and would go to heaven, because he was "God's servant" and was beyond reproach. ...

Couldn't agree more. A man who opened his Bible every week and yet didn't take messages like this to heart:

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." James 2:26

A Christian once said, "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today, is Christians."

 

[a_majoor]

How the heck did we go from the Bible to Beowulf?

Religion and literature are two means where people attempt to discover their place in the world, or at least an explanation for what is happening around them. In Homer's day, there was a god or spirit for everything (each individual tree or stream was held to have a spirit). This veiw of the universe certainly woirked for them (and I sometimes think it might work again. Consider sacrificing poor candidates to the Goddess Athena at the end of a course, rather than holding CRBs  ) Beowulf also dates from a pre Christian world view where the universe was actively hostile, and only a man of courage and honour could ensure collective saftey for the tribe.

I feel it is important to know Homer and Beowulf as well as the Bible, since they represent the roots of our Western culture. There are a lot of comprehensive reading lists out there, exploring and knowing where we came from is a good way of discovering where we could be heading towards.

 

[Infanteer]

I feel it is important to know Homer and Beowulf as well as the Bible, since they represent the roots of our Western culture. There are a lot of comprehensive reading lists out there, exploring and knowing where we came from is a good way of discovering where we could be heading towards.

That is why I have all three (along with numerous others) on my bookshelf - reading a wide ranging selection of books from the Canon is a good way to start understanding humanity and its constants.

 

[neuromancer]

Its funny to admit this, but there are certain books out there that have
had a stronger impact on my psyche than the Bible. There is something
very powerful about the written word that can be captivating and
motivational. Here are a few more to add to your list 

Tao Te Ching,
Stranger In A Strange Land,
The Dancing Wu Li Masters,

 

[Trinity]

I also have the Fagles translation which is pretty good because it uses modern English quite well (it makes reading the story fun) but still ties itself to the poetic style of the original.  It was the first one a I read and I got through it quite easily.

Really..  Fagles?  So I assume no homosexuals in that one?

Fagels....

Sorry.. I know .. no one had to do the joke.. I couldn't refrain.

 

[Dogboy]

A Christian once said, "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today, is Christians."

you cant be more right
I know lots of people who have turned off religion because they don't like whats out their being shown.

[quote author=Acorn]
G: No problem. If there's one consistency in you, my people, it's that you have, and will, change whatever I tell you into something of your own interpretation. It'll happen about six significant times before you get even close to right, and there's enough flex in the future that you may even destroy yourselves first. You'll endlessly argue about my words, and that may be the end of you.

G: I'm going to give you five rules. See if they get to the bottom of the mountain intact:

1. I'm the only God - don't try to figure me out, as I'm beyond human understanding.
2. Don't try to make a picture of me. I'm beyond human understanding.
3. Don't invoke my name unless you need me. If you say it too much it's like crying "wolf."
4. If you do nothing else, say a prayer or two one day.
5. Don't do anything against your fellow humans. They'll get you back if you do.

M: That doesn't seem enough Lord.

G: <sigh> Whatever. That's the basics. You add what you need. I need a refill.


Then God looked down and saw Moses deliver Ten Commandments to the people. Of course, God knows what the next version of The Law would look like (God's note to self - try a bit more emphasis on number five next time). God also knows how many versions it will take before man Gets It. If ever. God knows everything. One wonders why God even bothers.
[/quote]


now if we all tried to follow the 5 we'd getalong well

also where did you fined that Acorn? I loved it

 

[winchable]

Should also mention it's worth reading the epic of gilgamesh and doing a bit of a study of mesopotamian civilizations before monotheism if you'd like to really start from the beginning of things and you'll see some startling similarities and commonality among all things religious.
While we're on the topic of the "Full spectrum" approach to things that is.

 

[Acorn]

also where did you fined that Acorn? I loved it

Made it up on the spot. My sorry attempt at satire. Glad you liked it.

Further to Bible translations, I agree with those who regard the KJV as a work of linguistic art. However, I still believe it's a poor translation, even though it doesn't deviate greatly from Christian doctrine. The problem is the language allows the common man to draw bad conclusions far too easily, compared to a more contemporary translation like the NIV.

The Qur'an avoids the problem by the Islamic doctrine that the only true version is the original Arabic. Even there, the Arabic of the Qur'an is so different from Modern Standard Arabic (MSA) that the average native Arab speaker has difficulty with it, let alone someone who's native tongue is not Arabic.

Which brings me to the point of my satire attempt: once the word of God enters the hands of Man it will inevitably be corrupted in some way. Even though Islam agrees that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah as told to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and cannot be "interpreted" it still needs the Hadith and Sunnah, along with scholarly interpretation, to make it accessable to the average believer. Even at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) Muslims were asking for guidance as to the meaning of the scripture.

Which brings me to my final point: regardless of the creed, those who claim their interpretation of a piece of scripture is the true word of God are suffering from an unforgivable conceit: that they know the mind of God.

Acorn

 

[Infanteer]

Should also mention it's worth reading the epic of gilgamesh and doing a bit of a study of mesopotamian civilizations before monotheism if you'd like to really start from the beginning of things and you'll see some startling similarities and commonality among all things religious.
While we're on the topic of the "Full spectrum" approach to things that is.

Ah...Gilgamesh and Enkidu; life's lesson on why not to be a dink to your best buddy, even if you are godlike in powers....

 

[c4th]

Really..   Fagles?   So I assume no homosexuals in that one?

That thread was just locked yesterday.  Haven't you had enough?

 

[neuromancer]

Which brings me to my final point: regardless of the creed, those who claim their interpretation of a piece of scripture is the true word of God are suffering from an unforgivable conceit: that they know the mind of God.

In a way Paul agrees with you.

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his
counsellor? Or who has first given to him, and it shall be recompensed
unto him again?" Romans 11:33-35 KJV

Edit!!

Hypothetically speaking, shouldn't God have great powers of
communcation!?! visions, dreams, divine-intervention, etc etc etc.

Anyway.. I dont really want to go there.. cheers!

 

[a_majoor]

Literature has a lot to teach the careful or thoughtful reader, but beware: Books like Gilgamesh, the "Book of Changes" (or the Book of Five Rings, for that matter) are written from a vastly different cultural background, and probably don't mean what you think they do. (As a far out example, the The Bhagvat-Gita can actually be interpreted through western eyes as being a high tech battle between armies using tanks, aircraft and nuclear weapons. Hindu readers might disagree with that interpretation)

Homer, Beowulf and the Bible do come from our own cultural background (and form the basis of it), so most of the assumptions you live and work with from day to day come from these and similar sources. You can understand and assimilate these works far more easily than works from different backgrounds and traditions.

 

[winchable]

the The Bhagvat-Gita can actually be interpreted through western eyes as being a high tech battle between armies using tanks, aircraft and nuclear weapons.

Does this mean it isn't?
I've always been in awe of that line Oppenheimer used, wondered if he planned that a few weeks in advance to look cool.

The only things about Gilgamesh that I find striking are the obvious connection of the flood (The Prophet Noah's encounter, as well as an Egyptian use of a flood story, possibly also the story of Atlantic) because it was the first time I started to put two and two together and realise that everyone seems to talk about that damn flood, or at least it's a great coincidence that many major civilisations and religions seem to have a story of a flood wiping out all but a few.

 

[Trinity]

That thread was just locked yesterday.  Haven't you had enough?

It was sarcasm... not inteded to be a real statement, based on his typo.
Maybe you missed that.

 

[Infanteer]

It was sarcasm... not inteded to be a real statement, based on his typo.

It wasn't a typo though - I have the book sitting right next to me.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fagles

 

[Trinity]

It wasn't a typo though - I have the book sitting right next to me.

Really..

Damn.. I googled it and everything....

ugh

 

[Trinity]

So as the old one got way off track...

I was reading 'Savior on the Silver Screen' by Richard C. Stern, Jefford and Debona....

Came across an interesting quote

'To appeal to New Testament witnesses and writings from early church history
in support of the historical events of Jesus' life is not necessarily convincing, since
by the time of the composition of the biblical texts the memory of what Jesus did
was already being influenced by who they believed Jesus to be.'


We know that the gospel writers have the same events but in different words and
contexts.  How were the scriptures changed by those who wrote them and does
this cause any loss of authority as a result?

I know what I think... but curious of others insights.